John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Here we have Jesus praying to the Father, and the prayer of Jesus is that His disciples not be taken out of the world, but kept (guarded/protected) from the evil.

So again we have Jesus Christ Himself praying to the Father that the disciples NOT be taken out of the world.

Now I come online and I see talk about the catching up of 2Thess2:14+ and people call it the "rapture" ; but they're not teaching this event is a meeting of Christ at His return as Paul teaches, but they are teaching that this is an event which- contrary to the very prayer of Jesus- takes the disciples of Jesus Christ out of the world so they don't have to be kept from the evil because they are not even in the world anymore.

But I have to wonder, not only does the scripture never say anything at all about Christians being taken out of the world - but in fact the very opposite- the Messiah Himself is here praying against the doctrine of a "taking out of the world" "rapture" of His disciples- but that they be guarded from evil.

Now, my question is: how is it that I find multitudes of Christians praying for the disciples of Christ to be taken out of the world in a "coming of the Lord before the coming of the Lord?"

Why are so many Christians praying a prayer that is against the prayer of Jesus Himself? How did so many Christians become the adversary of Christ in prayer? Where did the doctrine come from? Certainly not the bible, or the Messiah who testifies Himself against the prayer? Who is it that is responsible for turning so many Christians into unwitting enemies of Christ in this prayer?

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Hi John,


Jenny Forbes Davenport responded/commented on facebook page to your post:


Jenny Forbes Davenport As Jesus said to His disciples, "in the world will be Tribulation." We have always been in Tribulation according to Christ. His people already undergo persecution and temptation. Just ask anyone who has already experienced the most horrific crimes that could ever be done to humanity. The world is already in Tribulation. There won't be a time, when man looks up and says "oh here is tribulation" b/c the world is already in tribulation. Tribulation is persecution, resisting temptation, fighting the flesh and shielding attacks from others (even those who profess Christ) and in a state of mourning b/c of the condition of the world. This is already happening. Persecution does not have to be physical death, for there is no real death and we are taught to "transform our minds into spiritual thinking." Spiritually we are in tribulation and the only thing left is Wrath. The church of Philadelphia and 144,000 spiritual jews will be kept from this Hour (b/c Babylon is destroyed in one hour). Kept means KEEP. The root word of KEEP is "to observe; to SEIZE." The continued definitions are: to take possession of; to SAVE; etc... please look it up. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to continue to convince others they will be left here to see and go through terrible and perilous times when Jesus Christ is the SAVIOR who will SAVE us from this time.


Jenny Forbes Davenport P.S. when Jesus KEEPS the church of Philadelphia in this particular verse, He tells them, "they will go out NO more." He intends to SAVE and KEEP them in Heaven. This is not for arguments sake...but to give HOPE to those who are already in Tribulation and are looking for their SAVIOR Jesus Christ. Amen.



Jenny Forbes Davenport Remember...Daniel 12. At the same time as Wrath is the coming of Jesus b/c it is AT THAT TIME that the the people will be delivered. Tribulation is already here. Wrath is coming and so is Jesus and He will SAVE you. Hope, Faith and Obedience. Anyone who calls out to Him in that day shall be SAVED. I am calling out to Him b/c Tribulation is more wicked than ever and I know the day of Wrath is approaching. I pray you call out too.

Try to bear in mind I'm not really asking about tribulation and what is this and where is that, and when? What I am asking is this:

Without a doubt the prayer of Jesus Himself concerning His disciples is that they not be taken out of the world BUT kept from the evil. Ask ourselves, have you ever prayed and said "Lord, I do NOT pray for ..." but Jesus goes out of His way to make sure everyone knows He Himself is praying against the idea of "taking them out of the world" at any time. It's like Jesus knows that somewhere down the line people are going to be trying to get His disciples to believe they will be removed from the world, so Jesus goes ahead and nips that in the bud right now, much to the dismay of future teachers of a "taking out of the world"; note Jesus is not praying "do not take them out of the world, unless..." or "do not take them out of the world until..." He is praying "do not take them out of the world" but, rather "keep them from the evil"

So any Christian who is praying for the disciples of Christ to be taken out of the world is in fact an adversary of Christ in prayer- because Jesus Christ is clearly praying the opposite prayer.

Now, I have met many who want me to pray for the "rapture" "blessed hope" of the "taking out of the world" of the disciples. I always ask, "What on earth could possibly get me to become an adversary to Christ in prayer? Why are you possibly suggesting I pray the opposite prayer, the REVERSE prayer of Christ?" Because for anyone to pray for a "taking out of the world" of the disciples of Christ, this automatically makes you pray against Christ since we know for black and white fact of scripture Christ prayed the opposite of "take them out of the world" and prayed "do not take them out"

Again we see the prayer of Jesus and it is manifestly clear I will cite again:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.



"keep" means to guard/protect/care for:

Ec 12:3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble
So 8:11 Solomon had a vineyard at Baalhamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers;
Jer 4:17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about
Eze 44:14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
Mt 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Ac 5:23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
Ac 12:6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
Ac 12:19 And when Herod had sought for him, and found him not, he examined the keepers, and commanded that they should be put to death. And he went down from Judaea to Caesarea, and there abode.



It's always a good idea to let people know they are praying a prayer that is the REVERSE of the prayer of Jesus. Someone is wanting, tricking, Christians into becoming the enemies of Christ in this prayer- I wonder who?



Yes, as He prayed He will KEEP/GUARD/CARE FOR/PROTECT and not "take them out of the world"



Of course we're all calling out- the question is, what are we calling out? Undoubtedly we are to be kept from the time of temptation, we are to be delivered from evil, we are to be protected under the wings of His shelter, etc. I am in complete agreement until we get to the part where I hear "we will be taken out of the world" and that's when I have to begin questioning why anyone is saying this, let alone praying for it, when it is factually the 180degree polar opposite of what Jesus Himself taught and prayed.

I see myraid Christians teaching this, and then teaching others to pray the disciples of Christ be taken out of the world, against the prayer of Christ. I mean there is just no way around that this is the opposite of the prayer of Jesus here at John 17, and really what you do in your above response is to answer my question. But you're not realizing that by answering the question you are telling me you're praying against the prayer of Christ, and you're then giving me your "reasons" for doing so. But your reasons make no sense, are not scriptural, and are factually the opposite of the prayer of Jesus.

I think we can at least see that, as far as the prayer of Jesus at John 17:15, you- and a great multitude like you- are praying against this specific request of Jesus to the Father.

Bear in mind as well that I'm not saying "you are evil" or such, but that this doctrine and prayer of "take them out of the world" is against the prayer of Jesus Christ, and I'm certain the Father will honor the prayer of His Son, and not those of them that rise up against Him in prayer. Again I say these things because my heart is infinitely heavy in wanting all of us to succeed through Christ by the Spirit to the glory of God, and to do this, the things that cannot remain have to be burned away; and this prayer against the prayer of Christ cannot remain. This doctrine of "take them out of the world" must go into the fire.

Hi John,

I just wanted you to know I shared your comments with Jenny on Rapture bible prophecy forum facebook page.


God Bless.


Steven

Jenny responded:




Jenny Forbes Davenport You have picked ONE scripture of Jesus praying and you have used that scripture to convince the followers of Christ that they are not going to be saved from this world. You are a false teacher. Jesus Christ came to SAVE us from this world and to TAKE US OUT of this world. He left and prepared a place for us. This is not HIS world or HIS kingdom as Jesus plainly SAID. If your telling me, that the followers of Jesus Christ should not be praying to be with their Lord and Savior in HIS KINGDOM, the place HE PREPARED for us... then you won't ever have to worry about being there; b/c the doctrine your preaching is a LIE. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings. But, I do not want to continue this any longer. I hope your "readers" understand the TRUTH here. I pray for you.

Not really, the one scripture I am citing doesn't say anything about "not being saved from this world" (those are your words, and you are misquoting Jesus, are you not?): I will requote what Jesus prayed concerning His disciples:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

So again Jesus prays to the Father saying

1. do NOT take them out of the world but
2. GUARD them from the evil

Now, you're telling me that the disciples of Christ will be taken out of the world which clearly- if it were to happen- would be an event which is the opposite of the prayer of Jesus right here. You say to me that I pick one verse: well, yes; and where is your verse speaking of the taking out of the world the disciples? Is there any verse anywhere in the entirety of the bible in which we can read, "And Father, I pray thou, take My disciples out of the world" or "and then I heard an sound of a trumpet, and, lo, the disciples of Christ were taken out of the world!" any verse of Paul plainly teaching, "And we shall all be taken out of the world"

Because here, as you confess, we have an actual clear verse where Jesus clearly prays against any form of removal of His disciples from the world. So again I have to ask, why are you teaching/praying the opposite of Jesus in this regard? Where is one verse that would cause you to suddenly disregard the very word of God, and start teaching/praying the opposite? Surely there is at least one single verse somewhere that I don't know about that clearly teaches that the disciples of Christ are to be taken out of the world in a coming of the Lord prior to the coming of the Lord?

Naturally this is rhetorical, as we all know there is no such a verse or passage in scripture. Not a peep is made or said by any teacher in the scripture regarding any taking out of the world of the disciples of Christ, let alone a coming of the Lord prior to the coming of the Lord (the very notion is not only completely absent from the Word of God, it also makes no sense whatsoever: a coming of the Lord before the coming of the Lord? to the purpose of an event the opposite of the prayer of Jesus?)



Then help me to be teaching sound doctrine. Show me in the scripture why I should be teaching/praying against Jesus' prayer at John 17:15. Show me why I should be doing this, or, moreover, why you are doing this. I will be completely honest and say up front that in order for you to get me to pray the opposite of Jesus in this matter, you are going to have to produce a very good argument, and I will also tell you up front that from my point of view "because KEEP means SEIZE" and "John was told, come up here" and "we will be saved" are in no way shape or form going to cause me to go "Oh, we are to be saved? Then we must be taken out of the world, and I will now start praying against the prayer of Jesus"

No, you're going to have to actually show me verses which actually say what you're saying: in other words, passages which clearly state the disciples of Christ are to be taken out of the world. If you can't do this (and you won't be able to because no such concept exists in the bible) then why would you possibly be surprised when I say "I refuse to pray against the prayer of Christ- and I will pray His prayer, and not yours."



I am asking you why you are teaching/praying a taking out of the world which not only doesn't exist in scripture, but is clearly prayed AGAINST by the Messiah Himself, as you confess, and as we all are sure, by this one verse at John 17:15. If I am to disregard the prayer at John 17:15 then please tell me WHY: what is YOUR reason for doing this?



Thank you, but be at ease in the knowledge that this does not hurt my feelings.



I understand, there's no much to be said on your end is there? That alone should give you serious pause, and reflection upon what you may be doing.