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While Yahusha/JESUS was alive, He prayed to His Father: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  John 17:15 (KJV)

Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)



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Yes, exactly and as written in the prophets the birth is triggered by the coming of the King of Confusion on the 10th day of the 10th month.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be DELIVERED; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

And then the delivery is made in Babylon and

Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

If we take those things being talked about in the above posts and apply them to understanding the prophets, we can forsee the birthing process and how it plays out, down to the very days. But first the King of Babel comes with all his host in judgment, and he comes Tevet 10. This is the "anti-Christ" and he appears "like lightning" with "all power and signs and lying wonders" and all of the people believe the lie that he is Jesus and the second coming has been fulfilled. All of this will be seen with the eyes because that is what the sons of the flesh use to judge things; all they know is the carnal understanding- seeing is believing. But the sons of God know the Word, and walk by faith and not by sight, they see with spiritual eyes of understanding- knowledge of the Word of God.

There are then two things Jesus said that "no man knows but the Father" and this is who the Son is, and the day and the hour; these two things only the Father can reveal. Everyone who knows who the Son is, is a little child; of this group, the mature in Christ know the day and the hour; this is what separates the two groups, who has received how much revelation. It is the knowledge of the times and seasons that is the seal in the forehead, and the latter rains (revelation) of the Spirit.

So this is what makes the sons of God manifest at the hour. Most Christians will worship the King of Confusion, along with all of the "peoples, nations and languages" because they aren't given the latter revelation of the times and seasons so it looks to the eyes to most certainly be the second coming of the King of Israel in winter. The 144,000 however know the appointed times of the two kings and know for fact that- despite what the eyes and ears are telling- this is in fact the Destroyer of Nations Ye Olde King of Confusion.

They then are gathered before the king just as the three, and the fiery furnace/den of lions/etc.

Dan 4:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king’s counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can DELIVER after this sort.

culminating in the manifestation of the sons of God in the fulfillment through Christ in them of the 7th month festivals: you see Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego COME FORTH FROM THE MIDST OF THE FIRE: born of fire- revealed by fire to be the sons of God.


Hi John!

Thanks so much for adding that informative and insightful information!! I am so glad you took the time to read the studies and comment. You are so right, the False Christ will be revealed first, just as Jesus warned us he would. The sons of God will know this and not be fooled by this big lie. It is all about spiritual maturity and giving it all to our Glorious Lord.

Bless you and thanks again for commenting.


Patti C.


Dear Patti,

I took this one paragraph out from the article you posted about Zion and must disagree with you so completely in that the rest of this article contains assumptions that leave one totally confused.


It is my contention that the Bride of Christ and the 144,000 and the Manchild and Manifest Sons of God, as well as the Overcomers, are all related and can actually be proven to be one and the same group.


There was a nation birthed in one day. On May 14, 1948, a nation complete with it's people, Constitution, One complete language. military, even though lacking the equipment that the British gave to the Palestinians) was fully delivered as promised by Jehovah God that, after Israel had spent it's time in the wilderness of the other countries again, it would come to an end and He would bring them back to the Land. The United Nations granted statehood to Israel on that day. One deciding vote in favor of this was Russia, where a great majority of the Israelites had traveled and lived in harsh opposition to their presence. The doors were opened for those children of Israel to migrate back to their Land; first from the direction of the north. This scripture had nothing to do with the church and it's high time that certain Replacement Theology people stop replacing themselves with the Hebrew Children that are in Diaspora. Ezekiel 20:34 - "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the ... Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to ... for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west . ... those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south. "I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God." (Amos 9:15)
“I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before.” (Jeremiah 33:7) For anyone to say Israel is in the land illegally is belittling the Word of God and to replace Israel with other doctrines that exchange the 12 tribes for some other conglomeration is adding to the Word of God....very serious business, don't you think?

Patti, I just don't understand. You wrote such a great presentation of the Tribe of Dan being of the 12 Tribes of Israel including why he would not be included as one of the tribes of 12 Tribes of Israel that would make up the 144,000 and here you are doing a complete turn-around. I don't believe you are double-minded on this issue but perhaps you have been influenced by writings that are such a maze of words that it is hard to understand just what is being said....causing pure confusion. The church, whether made up of Gentiles or Hebrews, will be removed before the 144,000 will be doing their work given to them by the Lord. It was Israel that gave birth to the Male Child, the Saviour of the World, the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't come forth from any other place, only this place, just about a mile south of Jerusalem, in the little town of Bethlehem as fore-told by Micah 5:2, But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

""Before she travailed, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion (the Bride of Christ) travailed, she gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God." (Isa 66:7-10)

There is the physical Zion located in Jerusalem and there is the Heavenly Zion that is The New Jerusalem. This cannot be altered into anything else. The Illuminati attempt to gain God's foot-stool, will seem to accomplish it and just as quickly will be faced with God's Wrath.




The twelve tribes mentioned in the Old Testament represent NATURAL ISRAEL.

The twelve Tribes mentioned in Rev 7. are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

Any member of natural Israel that becomes a born again believer is a member of Spiritual Israel, and that is the only way they will be included in the 144,000.

How can you believe that only the Jews...which by the way are from only ONE of the 12 tribes, are the chosen people of God, and also believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ?? That would be considered a Replacement Theology.

Replacement theology says that the Church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people. What I am saying is the complete opposite of that!! I am saying the Church becomes Israel, and the people who have received His Son, and are born again from above by the Holy Spirit, are His chosen people...Spiritual Israel.

What I wrote about the Tribe of Dan, has to do with the Anti-Christ coming from the original 12 tribes of NATURAL ISRAEL, and has nothing to do with my study of the Manchild and the 144,000.

I am sorry if the studies I presented were confusing to you, but they were perfectly clear to me, and I totally believe and stand by what I presented, as that is what the Holy Spirit has shown me, and it is totally supported by Scripture. I will be writing more studies on these issues and hopefully it will simplify the concepts I am showing.

Still, I totally encourage you to find out for yourself, and if what you say above is what you truly believe, than that is what you have found out and that is what you have been shown.

With all due respect,


Patti C.


Let me correct the scripture that was quoted in my reply. I went ahead and copied it from Patti's post; therefore the insertion of (the Bride of Christ)is not in the Scripture at all but inserted by the source of the item. It should read as such.

"Before she travailed, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God." (Isa 66:7-10)

Also, I'd like to add that God does not need the Body of Christ to deal with natural Israel nor does he need them when He is pouring out His wrath. With that said, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Thank you,



Before we agree to disagree, could you at least answer the question I asked you?

How can you believe that only the Jews...which by the way are from only ONE of the 12 tribes, are the chosen people of God, and also believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ?? That would be considered a Replacement Theology.

I am really just curious as to how you see this. I answered your questions, I would appreciate the same respect.


Patti C.


As far as what is being said here, Patti is understanding correctly. There is a carnal understanding and there is a spiritual understanding, this is clearly taught in scripture. The carnal mind understands Israel according to the flesh, meaning the carnal mind thinks that an Israelite is born of the flesh; his fleshly lineage makes him an Israelite. But the spiritual mind understands Israel according to the spirit, meaning the spiritual mind thinks that an Israelite is born of the Spirit; his spiritual lineage makes him an Israelite.

Just like Jesus is the spiritual Moses, the spiritual David, the spiritual Adam; He is the spiritual Jacob, the spiritual Israel. Just as Israel begat 12 fleshly sons according to the carnal seed, Jesus beget 12 spiritual sons according to the Spiritual seed which He sowed:

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Now the apostles are the 12 princes of the 12 tribes of Israel after the Spirit, and all living Christians can trace their spiritual lineage back to one of the 12, and ultimately to Jesus Christ Himself, the Father of the Israel of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

gerlinda you speak of replacement and this is a fair word, as the apostle teaches:

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

So from the tree of Israel branches were removed and replaced by other branches. But Israel hasn't been replaced, but some of the branches were. Now the branches of the tree of Israel are all according to the seed of faith in Christ.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And the vine is?

Ps 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Ps 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;

So Jesus says I AM Israel, and YOU are the branches.

What Jesus did was to resurrect the dead understanding of the carnal mind, and translate our understanding into the heavens, that is, raising our thoughts and understanding of the Word of God from the earthly, carnal realm; and into the heavenly, spiritual realm- that now we see with eyes of the spirit and not of the flesh, for the flesh is profitless, and by the flesh no man knows the things of God:

1Cor2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Babes in Christ understand with the carnal understanding of the flesh, but those of strong meat discern the spiritual.

If you're pointing at the children of the flesh and saying "here is the Israel of God" then you are succumbing to the strong delusion of the carnal understanding, and it is this understanding that blinds carnal Israel to the truth; the veil of the flesh.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so is the spiritual understanding higher than the carnal understanding. Believe me when I tell you that anyone understanding prophecy through what they can see with their eyes are succumbing to the strong delusion and will fall "and how great that fall"; believe me when I tell you everything you are seeing with your eyes is a lie, and the lies will only get bigger and bigger until culminating in the coming of the King of Lies in the 10th month to tell the biggest lie ever told.

The word "repent" in the Greek "metanoia" means THINK ABOVE, CHANGE YOUR THINKING.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

gerlinda here is a question to honestly consider:

You point at a group of people and say "Here is Israel after the flesh", but what happens if I ask, "How do you know this is really who they are said to be?" You have no geneologies to prove this. How do you know this is Israel after the flesh? You speak of an Illuminati- how do you know they have not staged this entire thing? How do we know that these aren't really the sons of, say, Esau? Surely you've heard people claiming that the Illuminati created the modern nation of Israel? How do you know they're not right? If Satan is in control of the nations, how hard would it be for him to counterfeit bible prophecy in a carnal way? How hard would it be for Satan to arrange the nations, and put the sons of, say, Japeth, in the promised land and call them the sons of Jacob? How do you know it's not one big lie designed to trick you?

If you are honest with yourself you'll understand that you can't know these things. The Lord in His wisdom has made the things of the flesh completely meaningless. You cannot be sure that that carnal people is who they are said to be; it may be true, then again it could very well not be true; we just are not able to be sure.

Now, I point at a group of people and say "Here is Israel after the Spirit", and should one ask "How do you know these?" it is easy, I ask them "Who is the Son?" and if they answer "Jesus" then I respond "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" because that they know Who the Son is shows they have received the first rains of the Spirit, and are guarenteed Israelites of God. And I can be 100% sure of it, by and through the spiritual teachings of the Messiah Jesus- the true Israel of God.



Dear John,

That explanation is absolutely awesome!! I have never heard it put better!! Thank you so much for giving Gerlinda an excellent answer to her questions about it, as you did much better than I could have.

Again, you have added greatly to the studies that I have presented and I am so glad that you chimed in here, and helped show the importance of natural verses spiritual. This is imperative truth, that all believers must come to understand to graduate from milk to meat. Once they do, everything else takes on a whole new meaning, and it is so exciting...it is as if one's eyes and ears have finally been opened.

Bless you!! I cannot thank you enough for your aid in putting forth these foundational truths. I totally enjoyed what you said, and I know that you have helped others to understand.


Patti C.


Hi Again, John!

I forgot to ask you about the 10th Day of the 10 Month that you have mentioned several times in your responses here. I am very intrigued about it and the significance it holds in regard to the Antichrist. I wonder if you could share more about it with us all.

I am starting a new thread with a little of the info. that I have found out about it, and hopefully you can respond to this question there, as this thread is getting to long, and the title really does not relate to this subject.


Patti C.