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Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)



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ZION GIVING BIRTH(many are called but few are chosen)

Hello all,

The Church is the Body of Christ, and the Bride (Zion) is taken out of this body of believers. Just as Eve was taken out of the body of the first Adam, the Bride will be taken out of the Body of the second Adam, Christ. This Bride will birth the Manchild, the 144,000 sons of God. In the last and final part of this study we will examine how this birth takes place, as it is shown in the Holy Bible.

Spiritual Israel will take part in redeeming natural Israel.


Sons to Glory book by Paul Jablonowski

Part 2 - Acting Like Mature Sons - Apostles

Zion Giving Birth

Several Scriptures refer to how Zion will give birth. Since we have established that Zion is representative of the Bride of Christ, let's examine what the Lord's Bride will be birthing. Passages from the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Micah point this out:

"Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at His word: "Your brethren (birthed by the Great Harlot) who hated you, who cast you out for My name's sake, said, 'Let the Lord be glorified, that we may see your joy,' (saying why do you take up your cross?) but they shall be ashamed." The sound of noise from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the Lord, who fully repays His enemies!" (Isa. 66:5-6)

Above, we see that one of the reasons why the Lord is bringing about the birth of His sons is to fully repay His enemies, or to cast out the children and methods of the flesh. The very next verses explain the birth process that the Lord will bring to pass to punish His enemies:

"Before she travailed, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion (the Bride of Christ) travailed, she gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God." (Isa 66:7-10)

The birth of these children of God through the Bride of Christ will be the answer that the Lord gives to vindicate His name and His holy city Jerusalem. Although spiritual Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ) has been redeemed, natural Jerusalem (the city as well as our physical bodies) still remains in bondage to the children of the flesh (Gal 4:25). But shortly after the birth of these "son's of Zion," Isaiah 66:10-13 shows that natural Jerusalem will also be redeemed:

"Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all you who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her; that you may feed and be satisfied with the consolation of her bosom, that you may drink deeply and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus says the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream. Then you shall feed; on her sides shall you be carried, and be dandled on her knees. As one whom his mother comforts. So, I will comfort you; and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem." The conclusion of Isaiah's book goes on to explain the judgment of God with fire and the reign of His Kingdom on earth with the headquarters in His holy mountain Jerusalem.

On several different occasions Jeremiah compares Zion or Israel to a woman in labor:

"For I have heard a voice as of a woman in labor, the anguish as of her who brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion bewailing herself, who spreads her hands, saying, "Woe is me now, for my soul is weary because of murderers!"" (Jer. 4:31)

Thus says the Lord, "Behold a people comes from the north country… as men of war set in array against you, O daughter of Zion." We have heard the report of it; our hands grow feeble. Anguish has taken hold of us, pain as of a woman in labor." (Jer. 6:22,24)

"Lift up your eyes and see those who come from the north… what will you say when He punishes you? For you have taught them to be chieftains, to be head over you. Will not pangs seize you like a woman in labor?" (Jer. 13:20,21)

Israel was about to be taken captive to Babylon, and her labor, travail, pain and sorrow was prophesied to come as a result of Babylon wreaking havoc in Jerusalem. Likewise, the Great Harlot (Babylon) that was birthed from the flesh, will wreak havoc in spiritual Jerusalem.

But at the same time that the Bride of Christ (mature believers) are being persecuted by Babylon she will begin to intercede and travail to bring about Jesus' life to a dying world. Jeremiah lets us know when this birth will take place: during the "time of Jacob's trouble" and during the "day of the Lord" which is also the time when Jesus returns: "Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah. "We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child?

So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it (the Day of the Lord); and it is the time of Jacobs's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, says the Lord of hosts, that I will break his (Babylon the Great Harlot - false church's) yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds; foreigners shall no more enslave them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." (Jer. 30:4-9)

Finally, Micah also confirms that the Lord's reign in Zion will start with a birth: "In that day (the day of Messiah's return), says the Lord, I will assemble the lame, I will gather the outcast and those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcast a strong nation.

So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on, even forever. And you, O tower of the flock, the stronghold of the daughter of Zion, To you shall it come, even the former dominion shall come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem. Now why do you cry aloud? Is there no king in your midst? Has your counselor perished? For pangs have seized you like a woman in labor. Be in pain, and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, Like a woman in birth pangs." (Mic. 4:6-10)

Micah then goes on to explain that the Messiah will have two comings, and that he will not return the second time until AFTER the Bride of Christ has "given birth." "But you Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the one to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth (two comings) have been from of old, from everlasting (they are established).

Therefore He (the Messiah) shall give them up (by returning to heaven after his earthly ministry), until the time that she who is in labor (the Bride of Christ) has given birth; then the remnant of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel. And he (Jesus) shall stand and feed His flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord His God. And they shall abide, for now He shall be great to the ends of the earth; and this One shall be peace." (Micah 5:2-5)

Jesus is waiting in heaven to return, but He will not return until the Bride of Christ has given birth to His life and character through mature sons. Only after this birth can we begin to start looking for any rapture or physical return of the man Christ Jesus. Only after this birth will the nation of Israel begin to be provoked to jealousy and saved. Only after this birth can we look for the promise of a restored government of God on the earth.

It requires some effort on our part, some pain, some labor, some spiritual travail. Life comes from travail. Jesus travailed, Paul travailed, the Early Church travailed, and the Bride of Christ will also travail to bring forth the "sons of Zion" in our generation.

I have yearned so much just to spend time in the Presence of the Lord and behold His beauty! Yet at the same time, I have desired so much for others to see His beauty and love that I must get out and show others His goodness! The tension between these two desires is what has caused a spiritual travail to begin. The pain, travail and labor are not fun. But we have a great hope and joy set before us. Jesus said, "a woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world" (John 16:21).

Let's be like Jesus, and for the joy that is set before us "endure the cross." Then, through the power of the Cross, we can take part in birthing His life and character to be seen by the whole world as a witness and then Jesus will return in glory: "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)

Who is Being Birthed?

The "man child" being birthed in Revelation chapter 12 is Jesus the Christ - only it is "Christ IN us." Christ's Bride is a many membered body. Likewise, the child (or children) whom she births represents a many membered body. The creation eagerly waits for the revealing of these sons of God because they will manifest Jesus Himself. Jesus alone is the only glory that is worth eagerly waiting for. Anything that comes from us is less than worthless; it is dangerous, because the flesh is always in conflict with the Spirit. Even heresy (false doctrine) is listed as a "work of the flesh" which is far from harmless, because it ends up bringing bondage and death.

There are only five direct details given about the "man child" being birthed in Revelation chapter 12. Since ALL of these details can be found in the "144,000 saints" discussed in Revelation 14:1-5, it is not far fetched to conclude that the manchild represents Jesus IN the 144,000 saints. The following chart compares these two:

(1)The "man child" VS (2) The 144,000 saints

(1) Will rule all nations with a rod of iron (12:5)

(2) Are found on Mt. Zion with Jesus - Zion is the place of His worldwide government (14:1)

(1) Are caught up to God and to His throne (12:5) Are before the throne of God (14:3,5)

(2) They (plural) overcame Him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb (12:11)

(1) They are overcomers found without fault and blameless, which only comes from the blood of the Lamb (14:4,5)

(2) They overcame Satan by the word of their testimony (12:11)

(1) They sing a new song that only they can learn (their testimony) (14:4)

(2) They love not their lives unto death (12:11)

(1)They follow the Lamb (sacrificial animal) wherever He goes (Rev. 14:4)

(2)Is a firstborn child (Isa. 54:1) Are firstfruits to God and to the Lamb (14:4)

The only place that Zion is mentioned in the book of Revelation is in connection with the 144,000 saints who are sealed with the Father's name written on their foreheads (Rev. 7:3, 14:1). We have seen that Zion is representative of the Church and more specifically of the Bride of Christ who is called out from the church. These 144,000 are birthed out from the Bride of Christ and stand with the Lamb who is the head of His body. This is a beautiful picture of unity, because the next verses go on to show that the "voice of many waters like the voice of loud thunder," and "the sound of harpists playing their harps" comes from these 144,000 redeemed saints.

They are all speaking and singing the same thing spiritually and so it sounds like "many waters" and "loud thunder," because they are one with the Lamb and therefore one with each other. The world will finally see and know that the Father loves them and that He has sent Jesus as His only Son! Not because of our church programs or Christian bumper stickers, but because we will "be made perfect in one" as Jesus promised! (John 17:22-23).

These 144,000 are not defiled with other "loves" in this world. They are spiritual virgins, because they have set their sights on loving Jesus as their main goal in life and Him alone. They do not let other cares or distractions take them away from their first love. The 144,000 are emptied of "self-life" and have allowed the life of their savior to flow through them. They are without fault and blameless because their entire self-worth and right-standing relies practically (not just judicially) on the blood of the Lamb. They walk by faith and not by sight where the blood of Jesus cleanses them from all unrighteousness.

The 144,000 found on Mount Zion are called "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4). Firstfruits are grains or crops that have reached maturity earlier (first), before the general harvest. The 144,000 will be believers who have reached the place of maturity before the rest of the believers. They will have learned through "the way of the Cross" and the grace of God to abide (be one) with Jesus and with each other in His body. God's plan is unity in diversity. We are not all to be the same "cookie cutter Christians" looking and acting alike. But we can still be unified together in the spirit, and maintain our individual callings in God. This true unity will bring the perfection that the apostle Paul longed for (Philippians 3:12-16).

Philippians 3:12-16

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I PRESS TOWARD THE MARK FOR THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.”

12 X 12,000 = 144,000. If you compare the 144,000 saints to the 12 apostles of Jesus, I think you will get a better picture of the role and function of these 144,000 in our generation. They will be chosen by the Lord to first "be with Him," and secondly, "to preach, and to have power to heal sicknesses and cast out demons" (Mark 3:14). These end of the age apostles each have a special individual calling from the Lord. They will not be appointed by man, nor is it a "promotion" in the Kingdom. It is simply a calling to a position in God's government to fulfill His purposes at His second coming similar to what the first twelve apostles had to do during His First Coming.

Zechariah saw the final purpose of Zion's sons: "For I have bent Judah My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim, and raised up your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and made you like the sword of a mighty man. Then the Lord will be seen over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning… The Lord of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with slingstones; They shall drink and roar as if with wine… For they shall be like the jewels of a crown, lifted like a banner over His land." (Zech. 9:13-16).

Jesus will bring righteous judgment to the kingdoms of this world through His Manchild.

Maranatha - "Come Lord Jesus!" (Rev. 22:20).


I would like to end this study with a few major points. I repeat one special paragraph from the chapter above about the “first fruits”.

“The 144,000 found on Mount Zion are called "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4). Firstfruits are grains or crops that have reached maturity earlier (first), before the general harvest. The 144,000 will be believers who have reached the place of maturity before the rest of the believers. They will have learned through "the way of the Cross" and the grace of God to abide (be one) with Jesus and with each other in His body. God's plan is unity in diversity.”

It is imperative that one has taken the WAY OF THE CROSS to be worthy to be part of the Lord’s FIRSTFRUITS. The first death is to the SELF, and the ULTIMATE rebirth of this death will be as the MANCHILD.

How many have truly died to themselves and live for Christ? When we become believers and are born again, we are given the promise of having this opportunity. We see through a glass darkly, but if we truly give all, of ourselves and our lives in this world, to Him,…we will achieve this HIGH CALLING.

Phl 3:14
“I press toward THE MARK for the prize of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus.”

This is the true meaning of what Jesus told us.

Mat 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

This does not mean that only a few are saved. It means that out of those saved only a few will mature into the spiritual high calling of being part of the 144,000 Manchild company.

There was much presented in these 5 studies in regards to this issue, I have no idea how it has been received as no one has commented. Is there anyone out there that is seeing the Truth in this? Does it matter, or is it too spiritual to be considered? I can only pray that it has reached those that do have an interest and maybe in some way has confirmed your own conclusions about the matter.

I will continue to write on this issue, as long as that is what the Lord is showing me to do, but this is the end of this particular study.

May the Lord keep His Truth in your hearts.


Patti C.


Yes, exactly and as written in the prophets the birth is triggered by the coming of the King of Confusion on the 10th day of the 10th month.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be DELIVERED; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

And then the delivery is made in Babylon and

Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

If we take those things being talked about in the above posts and apply them to understanding the prophets, we can forsee the birthing process and how it plays out, down to the very days. But first the King of Babel comes with all his host in judgment, and he comes Tevet 10. This is the "anti-Christ" and he appears "like lightning" with "all power and signs and lying wonders" and all of the people believe the lie that he is Jesus and the second coming has been fulfilled. All of this will be seen with the eyes because that is what the sons of the flesh use to judge things; all they know is the carnal understanding- seeing is believing. But the sons of God know the Word, and walk by faith and not by sight, they see with spiritual eyes of understanding- knowledge of the Word of God.

There are then two things Jesus said that "no man knows but the Father" and this is who the Son is, and the day and the hour; these two things only the Father can reveal. Everyone who knows who the Son is, is a little child; of this group, the mature in Christ know the day and the hour; this is what separates the two groups, who has received how much revelation. It is the knowledge of the times and seasons that is the seal in the forehead, and the latter rains (revelation) of the Spirit.

So this is what makes the sons of God manifest at the hour. Most Christians will worship the King of Confusion, along with all of the "peoples, nations and languages" because they aren't given the latter revelation of the times and seasons so it looks to the eyes to most certainly be the second coming of the King of Israel in winter. The 144,000 however know the appointed times of the two kings and know for fact that- despite what the eyes and ears are telling- this is in fact the Destroyer of Nations Ye Olde King of Confusion.

They then are gathered before the king just as the three, and the fiery furnace/den of lions/etc.

Dan 4:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king’s counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can DELIVER after this sort.

culminating in the manifestation of the sons of God in the fulfillment through Christ in them of the 7th month festivals: you see Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego COME FORTH FROM THE MIDST OF THE FIRE: born of fire- revealed by fire to be the sons of God.


Hi John!

Thanks so much for adding that informative and insightful information!! I am so glad you took the time to read the studies and comment. You are so right, the False Christ will be revealed first, just as Jesus warned us he would. The sons of God will know this and not be fooled by this big lie. It is all about spiritual maturity and giving it all to our Glorious Lord.

Bless you and thanks again for commenting.


Patti C.


Dear Patti,

I took this one paragraph out from the article you posted about Zion and must disagree with you so completely in that the rest of this article contains assumptions that leave one totally confused.


It is my contention that the Bride of Christ and the 144,000 and the Manchild and Manifest Sons of God, as well as the Overcomers, are all related and can actually be proven to be one and the same group.


There was a nation birthed in one day. On May 14, 1948, a nation complete with it's people, Constitution, One complete language. military, even though lacking the equipment that the British gave to the Palestinians) was fully delivered as promised by Jehovah God that, after Israel had spent it's time in the wilderness of the other countries again, it would come to an end and He would bring them back to the Land. The United Nations granted statehood to Israel on that day. One deciding vote in favor of this was Russia, where a great majority of the Israelites had traveled and lived in harsh opposition to their presence. The doors were opened for those children of Israel to migrate back to their Land; first from the direction of the north. This scripture had nothing to do with the church and it's high time that certain Replacement Theology people stop replacing themselves with the Hebrew Children that are in Diaspora. Ezekiel 20:34 - "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the ... Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to ... for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west . ... those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south. "I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God." (Amos 9:15)
“I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before.” (Jeremiah 33:7) For anyone to say Israel is in the land illegally is belittling the Word of God and to replace Israel with other doctrines that exchange the 12 tribes for some other conglomeration is adding to the Word of God....very serious business, don't you think?

Patti, I just don't understand. You wrote such a great presentation of the Tribe of Dan being of the 12 Tribes of Israel including why he would not be included as one of the tribes of 12 Tribes of Israel that would make up the 144,000 and here you are doing a complete turn-around. I don't believe you are double-minded on this issue but perhaps you have been influenced by writings that are such a maze of words that it is hard to understand just what is being said....causing pure confusion. The church, whether made up of Gentiles or Hebrews, will be removed before the 144,000 will be doing their work given to them by the Lord. It was Israel that gave birth to the Male Child, the Saviour of the World, the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't come forth from any other place, only this place, just about a mile south of Jerusalem, in the little town of Bethlehem as fore-told by Micah 5:2, But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

""Before she travailed, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion (the Bride of Christ) travailed, she gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God." (Isa 66:7-10)

There is the physical Zion located in Jerusalem and there is the Heavenly Zion that is The New Jerusalem. This cannot be altered into anything else. The Illuminati attempt to gain God's foot-stool, will seem to accomplish it and just as quickly will be faced with God's Wrath.




The twelve tribes mentioned in the Old Testament represent NATURAL ISRAEL.

The twelve Tribes mentioned in Rev 7. are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

Any member of natural Israel that becomes a born again believer is a member of Spiritual Israel, and that is the only way they will be included in the 144,000.

How can you believe that only the Jews...which by the way are from only ONE of the 12 tribes, are the chosen people of God, and also believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ?? That would be considered a Replacement Theology.

Replacement theology says that the Church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people. What I am saying is the complete opposite of that!! I am saying the Church becomes Israel, and the people who have received His Son, and are born again from above by the Holy Spirit, are His chosen people...Spiritual Israel.

What I wrote about the Tribe of Dan, has to do with the Anti-Christ coming from the original 12 tribes of NATURAL ISRAEL, and has nothing to do with my study of the Manchild and the 144,000.

I am sorry if the studies I presented were confusing to you, but they were perfectly clear to me, and I totally believe and stand by what I presented, as that is what the Holy Spirit has shown me, and it is totally supported by Scripture. I will be writing more studies on these issues and hopefully it will simplify the concepts I am showing.

Still, I totally encourage you to find out for yourself, and if what you say above is what you truly believe, than that is what you have found out and that is what you have been shown.

With all due respect,


Patti C.


Let me correct the scripture that was quoted in my reply. I went ahead and copied it from Patti's post; therefore the insertion of (the Bride of Christ)is not in the Scripture at all but inserted by the source of the item. It should read as such.

"Before she travailed, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she gave birth to her children. Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord. Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God." (Isa 66:7-10)

Also, I'd like to add that God does not need the Body of Christ to deal with natural Israel nor does he need them when He is pouring out His wrath. With that said, we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Thank you,



Before we agree to disagree, could you at least answer the question I asked you?

How can you believe that only the Jews...which by the way are from only ONE of the 12 tribes, are the chosen people of God, and also believe that the Church is the Bride of Christ?? That would be considered a Replacement Theology.

I am really just curious as to how you see this. I answered your questions, I would appreciate the same respect.


Patti C.


As far as what is being said here, Patti is understanding correctly. There is a carnal understanding and there is a spiritual understanding, this is clearly taught in scripture. The carnal mind understands Israel according to the flesh, meaning the carnal mind thinks that an Israelite is born of the flesh; his fleshly lineage makes him an Israelite. But the spiritual mind understands Israel according to the spirit, meaning the spiritual mind thinks that an Israelite is born of the Spirit; his spiritual lineage makes him an Israelite.

Just like Jesus is the spiritual Moses, the spiritual David, the spiritual Adam; He is the spiritual Jacob, the spiritual Israel. Just as Israel begat 12 fleshly sons according to the carnal seed, Jesus beget 12 spiritual sons according to the Spiritual seed which He sowed:

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Now the apostles are the 12 princes of the 12 tribes of Israel after the Spirit, and all living Christians can trace their spiritual lineage back to one of the 12, and ultimately to Jesus Christ Himself, the Father of the Israel of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

gerlinda you speak of replacement and this is a fair word, as the apostle teaches:

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

So from the tree of Israel branches were removed and replaced by other branches. But Israel hasn't been replaced, but some of the branches were. Now the branches of the tree of Israel are all according to the seed of faith in Christ.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And the vine is?

Ps 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
Ps 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;

So Jesus says I AM Israel, and YOU are the branches.

What Jesus did was to resurrect the dead understanding of the carnal mind, and translate our understanding into the heavens, that is, raising our thoughts and understanding of the Word of God from the earthly, carnal realm; and into the heavenly, spiritual realm- that now we see with eyes of the spirit and not of the flesh, for the flesh is profitless, and by the flesh no man knows the things of God:

1Cor2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Babes in Christ understand with the carnal understanding of the flesh, but those of strong meat discern the spiritual.

If you're pointing at the children of the flesh and saying "here is the Israel of God" then you are succumbing to the strong delusion of the carnal understanding, and it is this understanding that blinds carnal Israel to the truth; the veil of the flesh.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As the heavens are higher than the earth, so is the spiritual understanding higher than the carnal understanding. Believe me when I tell you that anyone understanding prophecy through what they can see with their eyes are succumbing to the strong delusion and will fall "and how great that fall"; believe me when I tell you everything you are seeing with your eyes is a lie, and the lies will only get bigger and bigger until culminating in the coming of the King of Lies in the 10th month to tell the biggest lie ever told.

The word "repent" in the Greek "metanoia" means THINK ABOVE, CHANGE YOUR THINKING.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

gerlinda here is a question to honestly consider:

You point at a group of people and say "Here is Israel after the flesh", but what happens if I ask, "How do you know this is really who they are said to be?" You have no geneologies to prove this. How do you know this is Israel after the flesh? You speak of an Illuminati- how do you know they have not staged this entire thing? How do we know that these aren't really the sons of, say, Esau? Surely you've heard people claiming that the Illuminati created the modern nation of Israel? How do you know they're not right? If Satan is in control of the nations, how hard would it be for him to counterfeit bible prophecy in a carnal way? How hard would it be for Satan to arrange the nations, and put the sons of, say, Japeth, in the promised land and call them the sons of Jacob? How do you know it's not one big lie designed to trick you?

If you are honest with yourself you'll understand that you can't know these things. The Lord in His wisdom has made the things of the flesh completely meaningless. You cannot be sure that that carnal people is who they are said to be; it may be true, then again it could very well not be true; we just are not able to be sure.

Now, I point at a group of people and say "Here is Israel after the Spirit", and should one ask "How do you know these?" it is easy, I ask them "Who is the Son?" and if they answer "Jesus" then I respond "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" because that they know Who the Son is shows they have received the first rains of the Spirit, and are guarenteed Israelites of God. And I can be 100% sure of it, by and through the spiritual teachings of the Messiah Jesus- the true Israel of God.



Dear John,

That explanation is absolutely awesome!! I have never heard it put better!! Thank you so much for giving Gerlinda an excellent answer to her questions about it, as you did much better than I could have.

Again, you have added greatly to the studies that I have presented and I am so glad that you chimed in here, and helped show the importance of natural verses spiritual. This is imperative truth, that all believers must come to understand to graduate from milk to meat. Once they do, everything else takes on a whole new meaning, and it is so exciting...it is as if one's eyes and ears have finally been opened.

Bless you!! I cannot thank you enough for your aid in putting forth these foundational truths. I totally enjoyed what you said, and I know that you have helped others to understand.


Patti C.


Hi Again, John!

I forgot to ask you about the 10th Day of the 10 Month that you have mentioned several times in your responses here. I am very intrigued about it and the significance it holds in regard to the Antichrist. I wonder if you could share more about it with us all.

I am starting a new thread with a little of the info. that I have found out about it, and hopefully you can respond to this question there, as this thread is getting to long, and the title really does not relate to this subject.


Patti C.