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While Yahusha/JESUS was alive, He prayed to His Father: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  John 17:15 (KJV)

Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)


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The book of Second Peter and Jude Authenticate the book of Enoch and Vice Versa

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Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture

Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture

Hello all,

The letter below is the last letter that I was allowed to post, or respond to, on the 5 Doves web site. I was rereading it to send to a friend that has some questions, and thought it was a good one to post again. It is important that we find out who God's people are and get it right in that department, before attempting to rightly dividing the Holy Word of God. I see this a the first step toward the whole Truth. At least, it was for me, and that is why I think it bares repeating.

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Israel & The Church / Tribulation & Rapture


All born again believers are considered God's chosen people. Since the Holy Bible speaks of these people being called Israel, then we are Israel, much more than any natural born Israelite. Being born again is the one and ONLY criteria of being called, chosen, and faithful! There is no more separation according to nationality, race, sex or any other consideration....we are one with Christ and have the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. No more divisions, no more Jew and Gentile!! Until we understand this and comprehend what it means, we cannot understand the Bible, and especially cannot understand the end times and our place in it. This is a FOUNDATION STONE that must be put into place before trying to understand what happens to this body of born again believers.
It is my contention that it will be this body of born again believers, Spiritual Israel, that will serve the Lord in saving all others during the Tribulation. We will be sealed with supernatural protection, but we will be here, and Christ will be among us!

Is our blessed hope really the pre-trib rapture, or is it to be born again from above, and in doing so becoming one with Christ, so that we can pick up our cross and follow Him to the death of our SELF life, and to the death of our flesh and blood bodies. We who have died to "self" have no fear of the second death of our bodies. When we are born again, we die and are resurrected as a New creature, and it is this new creature that the Lord sees in us.
We will not be taken out, we will be protected through the refining process of the Great Tribulation to emerge as precious refined gold, and become this third part that the Lord will call HIS people. I think we will be here for the wrath of Satan, but will be saved from the Wrath of God. Noah and his family were not taken out of the world when the flood came, they were protected through it. Lot, was not taken out of the world, just out of the way of the danger. I think that is what Jesus is pointing out to us when he says it will be just like those times.

Zechariah 13:8-9
8 – "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, .therein.
9 – And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

What does Scripture tell us about what this third part will endure?

1. God will bring them through the fire.

In Daniel’s allegory of eternal hell, we discover that these three servants of God were thrown into the fiery furnace, which was exceedingly hot! So hot that its flame slew those men who were ordered to throw the Hebrews into the fire (Daniel 3:22).

Nebuchadnezzar saw in this furnace, as we read in Daniel 3:25: “…lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt ; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God”.
Yes, Christ did appear in this fiery furnace with His three servants and literally protected and saved them from the flames.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

2. God will refine them as silver is refined.

This word “refine” in the Hebrew language comes from a word meaning to make pure or to purge away. This has everything to do with God’s conditioning of His own temple of believers.

Psalms 51:7 – "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."

Hebrew 1:3 – "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high";

Hebrews 9:22 – "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Matthew 3:12 – "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

3. God will try them as gold is tried.

Now let us deal with its third phrase, that of gold, which is a descriptive noun signifying purity.

Job 23:10 – "But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold."

Psalm 21:3 – "For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head."

Malachi 3:3 – "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness".

Revelation 3:18 – "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Revelation 4:4 – "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

Revelation 21:18 – "And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass."

Revelation 21:21 – "And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."

4. THEY SHALL CALL MY NAME, AND I WILL HEAR THEM. I WILL SAY; IT IS MY PEOPLE; AND THEY SHALL SAY, THE LORD IS MY GOD.

Psalm 34:17 – “The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles,”

Proverbs 15:29 – "The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous."

John 9:31 – "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."

1 John 5:14 – ¶And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:"

“They shall call my name, and I will hear them…,” God declares!

Yes, the third part is absolutely symbolic of the true body of believers in Christ. “They shall say, the Lord is my God,” and God shall say “it is My people.” Zechariah 13:9 states that God will try the third part as gold is tried.

This is what Zechariah is making reference to as he speaks concerning the third part being taken through the purifying process of trials and tribulations, that the true Church might be refined as silver is refined, and tried as gold is tried.

God has promised to bring His third part through this un- quenchable fire, just as He brought Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego through the fire in Daniel chapter three.

God has promised to bring this third part through hell itself, represented by the fire. Christ accomplished this at the cross. God has promised to refine this third part as silver is refined. We have discovered that the word refine is defined in the Hebrew as to make pure or to purge away. God has indeed purged away our sins and made all believers pure in His sight, only because we are covered with the righteousness of Christ. Let us now look closer at this word “refine” to examine just what its other Hebrew meanings portray.

REFINE, in addition to meaning purge is also translated melt and try.

Jeremiah 9:7 – “Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, behold, I will melt them, and try them; for how shall I do for the daughter of my people?”

Psalm 66:10 – “For thou, O God, hast proved us; thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.”

Psalm 13:3 – "Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited me in the night; thou hast tried me, and shalt find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress."

Psalms 105:17-19 -

17 – He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:
18 – Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron:
19 – Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.
Christ has passed through eternal hell for us; He has brought us through the fire. As a result of this, He promises to refine us, meaning to try, purge, or melt us, – as silver is refined.

Psalm 12:6 – "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."

A third of the angels fell with Satan, are the chosen third of God to replace them? Not as angels, but as redeemed worshipers, and kings and priests. Could that be why the devil hates us so much!! Jesus was tempted by the devil, what makes us think that we will not go through the same thing?

Rev 12:3 " And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

Rev 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

(Interesting study looking into this third part, as it is used to describe so very much of what happens to the earth and heavens during the Tribulation. It seems to be reflected in an evil way, with the third of the fallen angels, and in a spiritual pure way with the third part of God's chosen people. And this is then reflected in the earth, moon, rivers, sea etc. Have to look into this more later.)

If Jesus is delayed, and the foolish virgins lose their blessed hope, when the Rapture does not happen before the Man of Sin is revealed and the mark of the beast enforced, will they lose hope to the point of rejoining the world so as not to have their heads cut off? It will be the 144,000 complete number of those that gave up their lives and died to this world, that will be changed and supernaturally protected that will go forth and preach the everlasting Gospel to the whole world during the Tribulation, and they will complete the Great Commission, and do even greater works than Christ did himself, as Christ tells us they will.

Jhn 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Tts 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

This passage speaks of the fact of His coming in glory and the fact that we ought to be prepared to welcome Him when He does come. If we will be diligent and compare Scripture with Scripture we find that the timing of when His glory will appear is given to us in the Olivet Discourse. When Christ cuts short the persecution of Antichrist (Mt. 24:22) He tells us what happens:

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days (when Christ cuts it short) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory" (Mt. 24:29-30).

There you have it, the appearing of His glory, what a blessed hope!


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The Great Tribulation has already begun. The hour is late and it is getting increasingly dark out there. I know we are all willing to be taken out of this world in a supernatural secret Rapture. Yet, are we willing to be purified through the fire of the Tribulation and fulfill the Great Commission? We will not be taken out, we will protected through it. There are only two resurrections, not three. There is only two comings of the Lord, and the next one is HIS SECOND COMING. Let us not be deceived, and then get discouraged when this secret rapture does not happen. Let us be prepared for it not to, and if it does happen that will be great, but if it does not, we will know that He will be with us and protect us, and we will stand until the end and overcome, and win the only race worth running.

Prepare for the worst and Hope for the best!

May the Love and Peace of the Lord surround you all!!

Patti C.

Re: Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture

Hello all,

I am bumping up this study of mine, as it goes so well with the fiery trial that Pastor Mike is speaking of in his most recent video, today...11/15. I was shown this a few months ago, and it is something that I totally believe is going to take place, and in many ways is already taking place with the people of God.

Also, it is crucial to understand who God's chosen people really are!! There is unity in the Word of God about this, and I am so saddened by how many are so ready to divide up His Word to suit there own conceptions...a house divided falls!!

Find out for yourself, and don't believe me or anyone...all we can do is let the Lord show us the Truth, and there is no better way. Soon enough that dark glass will be clearing up, and we will know.

May the Lord Bless you all!!

JESUS IS ALL AND EVERYTHING!!!

Patti C.

Re: Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture

Patti C.
Until we understand this and comprehend what it means, we cannot understand the Bible, and especially cannot understand the end times and our place in it. This is a FOUNDATION STONE that must be put into place before trying to understand what happens to this body of born again believers.


Bear in mind that no one can choose to understand; of our choices, understanding is not one of them; this is something only God determines. Anyone that understands anything is only able to do so because God determined it for the time. Just imagine all of the people throughout the course of history that never even heard of Israel, or Jesus; never had a bible in front of them to go "Look at all of this information I've been given!" But no one but God determines when a person understands. It's a garden and the flowers are our understanding. You plant a seed of teaching, and it's watered by God and bears the fruit of understanding; and it is understanding of the Word that reconciles us to God; and the bloom of the flower is understanding, and the fruit of understanding is peace; this is appointed to happen not only to us as individuals, but according to tribe and nation, and even globally. But like our lives teach us, we come into being in confusion, and as we mature we proceed out of confusion and toward understanding of the Word of God; toward the perfect man with perfect understanding, who is seated upon the throne of understanding, as Jesus has promised to them that overcome, I also will grant they sit in My throne, as I have overcome and sit in My Father's throne.

This understanding process is what the seals are talking about, and the loosing of the seals is Jesus giving understanding of the Word of God to the elected ones; this is the opening of understanding, and is about the sealed vision of all in Isaiah:

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Isaiah is prophesying about the second coming and how the Word of God would be like a sealed book that no one was able to understand; this is why it says here:

Re 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

It's all about understanding, and how it is an act of God, and not the flesh, or mind of men. In the Revelation we're seeing false understanding being destroyed by great teachers "the kings of the East" which are the elect and are not China or Iran or any such carnal thing. The east signifies Judah, and these are the kings of Judah, who are the apostles and Jesus Christ King of Kings. But none of the Revelation signfies anything carnal- no comets or meteor showers or such things; it is all about a great battle of teachers; this is why the witnesses are breathing fire on people, and fire is coming out of the mouths.

Taking up your cross daily. I'm not sure how you're understanding "dying to self" but what this is meaning is that, Jesus is teaching us that God has appointed the events of our lives, and He does this in order to cause us to gradually conform to the image of His Son, which is the end result of this. Now for this to happen means we are going to be suffering, because suffering is necessary in order to make us into who we are to be after it's over. We want to be compassionate in heart, but in order to gain compassion, we have to experience the sorrow that births compassion into our being, you know? So the things in our lives that we perceive as bad, these must be come to pass in order for us to be created in His image, which is what is happening; we are being created spiritually, and the process is not over yet. For the sanctuary the process will be over at the beginning of the 1,000 years but for the rest of the dominion it won't be until the end of the 1,000 years; as they are freely taught by the elect during the 1,000 years without intereference from deception.

So what Jesus is teaching you is, don't fight the "bad things" don't try to run from the "bad things" and simply understand that you are a work in progress in the hands of Someone you can definitely trust; when the bad happens, embrace it; you get slapped- turn the other cheek; the bad compells you a mile? laugh and say "I'll do two" because you KNOW that suffering is necessary for you to aquire the true treasures of heaven- this is understanding; wisdom of God.

So you see often people try to "protect" Jesus from the "bad things"; Peter drew out his sword and Jesus says to him, "Put it away" and again

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

See then here? Jesus understands but Peter the carnal understanding? "Let it not be!" As if the will of God not be done? Let it be avoided! AVOID THE BAD! This is the delusion of the carnal mind as it does not comprehend the mysteries of God; he cannot perceive the spiritual understanding. But what did Jesus say to Simon here? Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan!" because Peter was being an adversary to the will of God- "AVOID IT!" "Run away from the bad!" But Jesus says, "Take up your cross" endure the bad things, just as Jospeh endured Egypt. Take up your cross, and die to your thoughts of running or avoiding the bad things because they are really GOOD things in disguise; for as Joseph said to his brothers, "You meant evil to me, but God meant it for good, to the saving of Israel"

Now, then God says in the prophets, "Do not fight what is to come, lest you find yourself fighting against the Lord Himself" and He says, do not run, or I will send the sword, and the famine, and the pestilence, after you, to devour you wherever it is to which you flee. But Jesus says, take up your cross; follow me, and you will be made the sons of the Living God, for I AM the way.

Of course, now you will find a great number of prophets talking much about how the church will AVOID IT! by way of some "disappearing of the saints" in order to AVOID THE BAD! Simon Peter still has not learned after all these years, and thus history will repeat, and Peter will deny His Lord thrice, before the day break, and he will go out and weep bitterly

Re: Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture

It is my contention that it will be this body of born again believers, Spiritual Israel, that will serve the Lord in saving all others during the Tribulation. We will be sealed with supernatural protection, but we will be here, and Christ will be among us!


Try to understand the two covenants as the two Israels; anyone in the old covenant is in Israel after the flesh, and anyone in the new covenant is Israel after the promise. So anyone who confesses Jesus is the Son of God is in the new covenant, and they are part of the body of the Israel after the promise. But what happens to Israel in the prophets? Removed completely into exile through the Assyrian (which is again the antichrist); so both spiritual Israel, and spiritual Judah (these are the dominion and the sanctuary) get overcome by the antichrist, and removed from the promised land- which again, is the new covenant: they are removed from the new covenant as they make another covenant with antichrist who they think to be the newly returned Jesus, but is not, but is the "another Jesus" Paul spoke of.

The only ones of Israel who are sealed are the elect remnant of the 144,000 tribes; this is why the woman is made distinct from "her offspring", and they're the only ones that remain faithful; they bring the body back into the covenant at the 7th month festivals, and prepare the way of the Lord. Remember that it's written that Jesus is to remain seated at the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool; and it says "henceforth in expectation that His enemies will be made His footstool"; and it is the elect who do this, make His enemies into His footstool (this spiritually means they are being brought into the new covenant; as "Israel is His footstool" then His enemies are made into Israel). The elect are not only protected from the wrath of God, they are the ones executing it. They are the "kindled fire in the midst of Babylon" ; just as the three were signifying: a display of election is the wrath of God revealed against men: the display of the three in Babylon who went in the fiery furnace was the wrath of God on all the nations gathered to the image of Nebuchadnezzar. When the three are thrown into fire at the king's command of death, and God protects them from that sentence, and overturns it in front of the gathered nations, that is the wrath of God: it is a clear sign that causes immediate transformation: thus you find the King of Babylon calling them "servants of the Most High" because he just witnessed the wrath of God on himself: King of Babylon says "Die!" and God says "Live!" and God wins, and Nebuchadnezzar trembles before the three and exhalts them to over the kingdom and writes a whole chapter about how God showed him the truth, and what Nebuchadnezzar's last words ever recorded?

Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

That's the wrath of God- think spiritual wrath, not carnal wrath. Not the kind of wrath that throws battery acid in people's faces, but the kind of wrath experienced by a Father's disappointed expression. That's the REAL wrath. The heart-felt wrath. The kind of wrath that really causes weeping and gnashing of teeth. But everything is reconciled in the end. Everything. We sometimes tend to think of destruction as something that isn't reconciliation; but consider the wicked man who is converted to the gospel and turns from his evil; the wicked man has been destroyed, blotted out; reconciliation with God destroys the old man; but every end is secretly a beginning: and though the wicked perish, the righteous has appeared in his stead. When the Lord says all unbelievers will perish that means everyone will eventually become a believer. Everything is reconciled (not everything saved, though- only the elect are saved, and that is into the priesthood; all others are of the dominion of Israel, but not the sanctuary). All of His enemies are made His footstool. ALL of them.

We will not be taken out, we will be protected through the refining process of the Great Tribulation to emerge as precious refined gold, and become this third part that the Lord will call HIS people. I think we will be here for the wrath of Satan, but will be saved from the Wrath of God. Noah and his family were not taken out of the world when the flood came, they were protected through it. Lot, was not taken out of the world, just out of the way of the danger. I think that is what Jesus is pointing out to us when he says it will be just like those times.


Bear in mind Noah wasn't protected with a mystical force field or anything. He was protected by knowledge of things to come, and when they were coming. Just as it will be knowledge that protects the elect during the hour of temptation that comes on all the world.

in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.
in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it, and built forts against it round about.
in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.