FOR FAIR USE AND EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES



One of the GREATEST dis-services that "man" does to the "body of Christ" is to take ONE SCRIPTURE and make a complete doctrine from that scripture.

For instance:

I Corinthians 14:34-35..."Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commended to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (vs.35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Now, there are a multitude of men in the "body of Christ" who take this scripture and make a complete doctrine out of it!! This places women to be inferior to men due to how they were born in the natural world.

THIS IS A COMPLETE PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURE....and it has effectively CANCELLED OUT about HALF of the "body of Christ".

So, how does this hold up against Galatians 3:28 which says:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE; FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."

These are TWO CONTRADICTORY SCRIPTURES!! Yet, the Bible NEVER CONTRADICTS ITSELF....unless....WE, OURSELVES DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT AS IT IS WRITTEN.

This is the reason for I Corinthians 15:46 being in the Bible:

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DISCERN THE "SPIRITUAL" INTERPRETATIONS WHICH FOLLOW EXAMPLES FROM THE "NATURAL" WHICH HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO US PREVIOUSLY.

But, unfortunately, in today's "body of Christ" there is so much apostasy that "spiritual" understanding has been effectively been eliminated in Christian thinking.

In much time searching for a perfect example of this, I found only ONE. Very few in the Christian "body" today have the spiritual understanding of J. Preston Eby....and he explains how and why the "women" should be silent in the church. But, this WOMAN (which should be kept silent) is found in "MEN" as well as in "WOMEN"....she's within ALL OF US...

But, if you have almost no spiritual understanding, this is something you may not want to hear..

Explanation by J. Preston Eby:


http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev46.htm


Piece of link article:


Now, dear saints of God, this brings us to an important thought. I must confess that I have often been distressed by the lack of understanding among the Lord's people. Somehow so many seem to miss the point. And nowhere is this more true than when we come to the harlot church systems of man! Let me make this point as clearly as I can. The mother of harlots is not the Roman Catholic Church. The mother of harlots is a lot closer home! The mother of harlots is still birthing her children!

The mother of harlots is the soulish dimension of man's life that through her carnal sense-consciousness and human logic and reasoning births what she believes is pleasing to God, what she feels is the worship of God, what she perceives to be the work of God, and what she determines to be the way of God. The mother of harlots is our own soul - our very own religious mind, will, emotion, and desire! Where did the Roman Catholic Church, with all her false doctrines, pagan practices, and carnal rituals, come from? Did it not proceed right out of the soulish heart of man? You see, beloved, carnal church systems, creeds, rituals, ceremonies, and methods are not really birthed out of other carnal church systems at all - they are, one and all, birthed out of the mother of them all - the soulish heart of man!

God's people have been walking after the mother of harlots too long. We have been deceived by her prophecies, we have been mislead by her teachings, we have been enticed by her attractiveness, we have been seduced by her wantonness, we have been betrayed by the spirit of Mystery Babylon right within the midst of us! We have walked by the direction of the soulish nature rather than by the leadership of the spirit.

It is time for "our woman" to keep silence in the church! I do not hesitate to tell you that most of the men I have met in my life-time who were concerned about "women preachers" were themselves under the control of the loudest-mouthed woman of all - their own soul! They were so stuck in their soulish dead-letter-of-the-word understanding that they could never hear the spirit! But now we have the word of the Lord Jesus Himself - it is time for "our woman" to be brought under subjection! This is one of the vital keys to overcoming!

It is time for the spirit to BE LORD in the house of God! When we reach the place where we willingly refuse to accept as spiritual that which thrills and chills and seems right to the soulish realm, where we willingly refuse to identify with that outer world that stimulates the soulish affections, casting ourselves upon Jesus Christ who Himself is the truth, the light, the reality - then the spirit takes the throne of our life to reveal out of our innermost being the wisdom and the power of God.

***********

So, the instruction for "women to be silent in the church" is not just for the female gender....it is for BOTH, MEN AND WOMEN. It is the part of you which is NOT led by the Holy Spirit of God....it is our "fleshy mind" (soul) which is the "woman" in every single one of us....INCLUDING MEN!

Arlene

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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic
Steven

Arlene,
Amen Sister!!! Tell it like it IS!!! I totally connected with the above article, as it reveals what should be obvious, but humans are so prideful and self absorbed they would never think to look inside themselves for the problems they see in others. I know I deal with this issue, so many thoughts about self, and ego cloud the still small voice of the Spirit. We are all guilty as you say, but especially men who think they do not have this harlot inside of them!!


Great post, as usual. I do hope that Bruce reads it, as he is the one who needs to examine this aspect within himself, and own up to it. No one Scripture can be the final say on any subject, and certainly not an excuse to avoid the work it takes to search the Bible and prove one's points. I think him using that Scripture, just points to the fact that he does have a problem with his soulish side. I hope his wife reads, what you wrote, too. That would be a blessing to her, as I would guess that her opinions have been repressed and or dismissed as not valid due to the simple fact she is a woman.

Bless you for your wonderful SPIRITUAL insights and always backing them up with the Truth of God's Holy Word.

Patti C.

Hi Arlene, I have been viewing the posts back and forth, and both You, Patti, and Bruce have valid points. Please don't misunderstand, I believe women have contributed much good and bad to the body of Christ, just as men have.
After reading some of the comments this thought came into my mind, all 66 books of the bible were written by MEN who were moved by the Holy Spirit, do you have any thoughts on why God did NOT choose any WOMEN for this task, could it be because of what happened in Genesis chapter 3:6 ??
Thank you and God bless.

Hi Bob...

All 66 Books of the Bible were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit of God! Yes, men put down the words they were told. But this does not mean that God had any preference of "man" over "woman", spiritually.

Women were also chosen by God to be JUDGES....read Judges chapter 4, which tells about Deborah, the "Judge of Israel"....and that's just ONE example.

But, there have been women on the translations committees of the Bible versions today, as well as men. They are who put the actual words on the pages of today's Bibles...and there is much corruption in them today....by BOTH men and women.

In the early days of civilization, education was available to MEN but NOT to women. That was the way society was structured. Most women could not read or write. Women were the keepers of the home and children, and men went to work to support their families. LIFE WAS DIFFERENT THEN. Women were not LESSER than men....they were just not as educated at that time.

Perhaps men were chosen because they had the ABILITY to read and write!!?!

Each has always had different functions from the other....but NEITHER was above one or the other as a creation of God.

I could tell you horror stories of some Christians (MEN, of course) who wouldn't allow the men in church to pray unless they were circumcised.... because their "head" had to be "uncovered". I'm perfectly serious!! They took this as Bible doctrine!! They took I Cor.11:7 as a doctrine for their church. And, likewise, some churches won't allow women to pray unless they put a "hanky" of sorts on their heads...again, making a "spiritual" concept into a "natural" doctrine.

THIS IS FOLLOWING CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS...not God! It's because they don't understand the PRINCIPLES of what God is saying....the "spiritual" meanings. Jesus Christ is the "Head" of the "body of Christ"....and the rest of the "body of Christ" consists of people who are all equal IN CHRIST....Jews, Gentiles, bond, free, men, women, etc.....you LOSE your ethnicity and gender when you become a member of the "BODY OF CHRIST"....because we then become "spiritual" people.

What were God's qualifications as to who PENNED (wrote) the words down did not depend upon their birth appendage....it depended on their ability to put down the WRITTEN WORD, which was inspired by God. COULD THEY READ AND WRITE? Otherwise, why He chose whom He did, not a person alive who can say for sure.

I will not debate "men vs.women" any further. I have known BOTH genders who have both bad and good in them.....as do I....and YOU, as well. If you don't see this, then you don't understand the conflict we ALL have that Paul described in Romans chapter 7.

BTW...If you know a "valid point" expressed by Bruce, I sure would like to hear it!! (Scripture back-up, please). I don't think he knows what "spiritual" understanding is all about....but then, maybe he has withheld those kinds of posts up to now. He hasn't a clue who "Israel" is...at least according to God's definition, anyway.

And, if you have to ask the question that you did about Genesis 3:6, then either you didn't READ the article I posted...or you didn't UNDERSTAND what it meant. It is not a valid question in the context of that article.

Arlene

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Link: https://bible.org/seriespage/new-testament-church%E2%80%94-role-women
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Note: This article is posted for discussion purposes for those that want to continue this discussion ....this is not for argument or debate but for discussion for those willing to continue the discussion.



Link: https://bible.org/seriespage/new-testament-church%E2%80%94-role-women


The New Testament Church—The Role of Women





1 Corinthians 11:3-10 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9 for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

1 Timothy 5:10 having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

Titus 2:3-5 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.

See also 1 Timothy 2:9-15, Romans 16:1-6 and Luke 8:1-3.

Introduction

On the 455th anniversary of Martin Luther’s posting his 95 theses on the church door in Wittenburg, a group of women posted on the doors of 12 Los Angeles churches theses intended to bring the contemporary women’s liberation movement into the life of the Church. Their statement repudiated what they called the primitive thinking of the Apostle Paul.18

If the women’s liberation movement has done anything for the church of Jesus Christ, it has placed the spotlight on the question of the role of women in the church. It has demanded that we speak to an issue which many have attempted to sweep under the proverbial carpet. I have to say that as I approach this subject I feel something like a professor that I heard about some time ago. It was during the Second World War and the prisoners of war of the Allied Forces in a particular prison camp decided to organize some activities which would keep the men mentally alert and active. One course that was offered was “American History.” That in itself is nothing particularly novel or interesting, but what was unique was that this course was taught by a Britisher. They called the course “American History from a British Point of View.” That is somewhat the way I feel this morning as I approach the subject of the role of women in the church, from a man’s point of view.

For the sake of the women, particularly any who may be inclined in the direction of the liberation movement, I want to say that it is not my intention to harass the liberation movement—neither is it my intention to defend it. There are some causes which this movement has taken up which, in my opinion, are just and noble. I personally believe that women should be paid the same amount for their labor as men. I believe that single, widowed, or divorced women should have equal credit privileges.

But these matters are not the major concern of the Scriptures nor are they the subject of my message, so I will not address myself to them. The question I shall attempt to deal with this morning pertains to the role of women in the church, our church in particular. What does the Word of God say to us in this matter of women and their function in the church?

Whenever the subject of women in the church arises, it is always the Apostle Paul whose name is mentioned first. Surely we know that Paul spoke more frequently and more pointedly to this question than any other New Testament figure. One could almost be amused at the ingenious methods which men and women have employed to do away with Paul’s teaching on the role of women in the church.

Some throw out every passage which they disagree with as unauthentic. Such is the case with William O. Walker, Jr.,19 He says that 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 is actually a compilation of three separate pericopae, all of which are not Pauline. He then goes on to throw out the epistles to Timothy and Titus, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, and the related portions in Ephesians and Colossians, which leaves us only with Galatians 3:28:20 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Others admit the passages are genuinely Pauline, but that Paul was either unclear,21 completely biased,22 or mistaken.23 We are not shocked when we are told about Ernest Kaseman, “ … who, after a lecture on St. Paul, was confronted by a woman who said, ‘Are you saying that Paul was wrong?’ Kasemann replied: ‘Even being an apostle is no excuse for bad theology!’”24

But it is most disappointing when men such as Dr. Paul Jewett, in attempting to explain 1 Tim. 2:12-15 say that Paul was mistaken, “that he hadn’t gotten his rabbinical training squared up with the idea of freedom and equality he talked about in Galatians.”25

By far, the most popular approach to Paul’s teaching on the role of women by evangelicals is to write it all off as culturally oriented, for a particular people and occasion: “Thus, the focus of Paul’s concern with the covering of the prophetic women’s head would appear as an issue of concern in his day, rather than a general principle of worship.”26

Lest we should become puffed up because we take the Scriptures seriously and literally, let me also say that there has been a great deal of injustice done by Christian men whose egos are slightly over-enlarged and who have used the teachings of Paul to domineer and dictate their wives. Such was never the intent of the Scriptures. We, as Christian men, must recognize that the Scriptures speak clearly not only in the matter of the submission of women, but in the sacrificial and loving leadership of the men—a subject which has been too little dealt with by us, I fear.

Our Approach to the
Role of Women in the Church

Paul has become the scapegoat for the biblical teaching on the role of women, but what Paul taught and practiced was consistent with the practice of our Lord and was based upon the teaching of the Old Testament as well as that which was revealed to him by our Lord concerning the church (cf. Eph. 3:1-13). We will begin our study by observing the cultural backdrop of the view of women in New Testament times; then, we will take note of the practice of both our Lord and Paul in the matter of women, and then we will expound the principle upon which these practices were based, and finally to some practical outworkings of this principle for us today.

The View of Women in New Testament Times

Although this has been said previously, it is important to remember that the New Testament teachings were liberating to the women of New Testament days.

A. W. Verrall, the great classical scholar, once said that one of the chief diseases of which ancient civilization died was a low view of women.27 … The Jews had a low view of women. In his morning prayer there was a sentence in which a Jewish man gave thanks that God had not made him ‘a Gentile, a slave or a woman.’ In Jewish law a woman was not a person, but a thing. She had no legal rights whatsoever; she was absolutely her husband’s possession to do with as he willed.28

Aristotle once said, “Woman may be said to be an inferior to man.”

In New Testament times, “(Women) received no education, not even teaching in their religious writings, the Torah. One rabbi who lived at that time said, ‘Rather should the words of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman. Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one who teaches her lasciviousness.”29

The Practice of Jesus and Paul Regarding Women

Much could be said in the way of the elevated status which Jesus and the apostles (Paul) gave to women, but the subject of our discussion must be limited to the role of women in the church.

Women played a large part in the ministry of our Lord. Some of His closest friends and faithful followers were women (cf. Matt. 27:55-56; Luke 23:49, 55). They were the last to leave our Lord’s cross and the first to see Him resurrected (Luke 23:55; 24:1ff.). There were women who followed Jesus as He traveled about, and who supported Him and His disciples (Luke 8:1-3). If perchance we are inclined to think that the role of women was primarily in the kitchen, or preferably in the kitchen, we need to be reminded that Jesus commended Mary for sitting at His feet, while Martha was obsessed with fixing the meal (Luke 10:38-42).

We must also recall what women did not do to minister when they accompanied our Lord. Our Lord did not choose women to be among the 12 apostles. He did not send women to teach, preach or heal. So far as we know He did not invite women to the Lord’s Supper in Matthew 26:20. When the great commission was given in Matthew 28:16-20, it was given to men. In brief, women did minister to our Lord and with our Lord, but never in a capacity of leadership or of authority such as teaching or preaching.

Likewise the Apostle Paul had high regard for women. Many of those greeted in the last chapter of Romans were women. Phoebe was especially mentioned as one who had greatly helped the church at Cenchrea (verses 1-2). Paul’s teaching on the marriage relationship greatly enhanced the position of the married woman (cf. Eph. 5:22-33). But once again we see that women were not allowed to assume positions of leadership or authority within the church. In 1 Timothy Paul wrote:

Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet (1 Tim. 2:9-12).

In 1 Corinthians we read:

As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church (1 Cor. 14:33b-35).

The uniform practice of the churches; then, was that women should not take leadership in the church meeting. They were not to teach or to exercise authority, nor were they to engage in questions. They are to subject themselves, as the law teaches, Paul said.

The Principle Behind the Practice

No one, save the rankest liberal, would disagree with the fact that it was the practice of the Apostle Paul that women could not take a leadership role in the church meeting. Most, however, would be inclined to say that the reasons for this practice were purely cultural, and therefore inapplicable to the church today. With this we must disagree, for Paul does not base his instructions on culture, but upon principles which are related to the purpose of the church and to the teachings of the Old Testament. In 1 Corinthians Paul’s teaching is consistent with the ‘law’ (14:34). In 1 Timothy the silence of women is established upon the teachings of the early chapters of Genesis (1 Tim. 2:13-14). We will only understand the necessity of women not leading or being in authority in the church when we understand the principle which underlies this practice. That principle is that God has assigned man the responsibility of reflecting or demonstrating the headship of Jesus Christ in marriage and in the church.

It is fundamental that we understand that the church is God’s showplace. God is using the church to demonstrate truth, both to the angelic hosts as well as to the world. In Ephesians we read: “in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places” (Eph. 3:10).

In the fifth chapter of Ephesians we are told that the relationship of Jesus Christ to His church is reflected in the husband-wife relationship in marriage. Marriage, the church, and the family are God’s object lessons. This being the case, husband, wives, and children all have a role to carry out in order to properly demonstrate what God wishes to communicate.

In marriage and in the church God has assigned man with the responsibility of reflecting the headship of Jesus Christ over the church. To the woman God has assigned the role of demonstrating the submission of the church to her Head, Jesus Christ. The foundation truth behind the role of women in the church, then, is that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Man has the responsibility to play the role of the head of the woman, and the woman is to submit to her head. This is precisely what Paul said in Ephesians: “For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church” (Eph. 5:23a).

Again we see this taught in 1 Corinthians 11:3: “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”

Before we engage in the more controversial aspect of headship, let us think for a moment about the headship of God the Father over the Son. Our Lord constantly sought the will of the Father rather than acting independently—something which Satan attempted to get Him to do at His temptation. In the Garden of Gethsemane our Lord submitted to God’s will for Him to die, in spite of His human desire to avoid it. Submission to the headship of the Father resulted in the Son being obedient to the will of the Father for Him to become incarnate, so in the process, our Lord ‘veiled’ His heavenly glory by taking upon Himself a physical body (cf. Phil. 2:6-8). He sought not to bring glory to Himself, but to the Father.

In the case of our Lord we should see that His submission and humiliation was God’s way of blessing and bringing glory to Himself (Phil. 2:8-11). We should also understand that the submission of the Son to the Father did not in any way imply inferiority on the part of the Son to the Father. Both the Son and the Father are equally God. The Son is no less God because He submitted Himself to the will of the Father and sought to glorify Him. The submission of the Son to the Father was a functional submission, necessary for the unified activity of the Godhead.

Such is the case with the woman’s submission to the husband. It does not imply in any way inferiority on the part of the woman to the man. The wife’s submission to her husband is her indication of her submission to God (Eph. 5:22). As the Son veiled His glory in the incarnation, so the wife is to veil her glory (1 Cor. 11:2-16) in order to bring glory to her husband. The woman is not to take positions of leadership in the church because God has chosen men to reflect leadership over the church, and since the church is the bride of Christ of which Christ is the Head, so the man is to exercise headship over his bride, his wife.

Now let me make a few general comments about this matter of headship and submission on the basis of what I have already said:

(1) Headship and submission are necessary whenever there is plurality in order to have unity. Such is the case within the Trinity; how could we expect otherwise in marriage and in the church?

(2) Headship and submission are assigned roles, not on the basis of worth, but for the purpose of acting out the truth of God.

(3) Headship necessitates leadership and pre-eminence; submission necessitates obedience and submission.

(4) Headship and submission are universal. They are found in the Godhead. Man is to submit to the headship of Christ; woman is to submit to the headship of man. No man or woman is exempt from the necessity of submission to headship. The principle remains constant, only the application varies.

(5) The way to personal fulfillment and glory is not by exalting oneself and seeking our own glory, but by submitting ourselves to others (cf. Phil. 2:6-11; Matt. 23:11-12; Eph. 5:21).

(6) The basic issue is whether or not you are willing to assume the role which God has assigned to you as a man, woman, or child. Elisabeth Elliot Leitch, in an excellent article entitled, “A Christian View of Women’s Liberation” had some excellent comments on this matter of accepting our assigned roles:

The only road to fulfillment, that is, to freedom, for human beings, male or female, is an apprehension of what we are made for.30

Accepting our places means making it our business first to understand the cosmic assignment and then, here and now, to find out what we’re good at, and if it is not inimical to God’s order, to do it.

We too, are allowed to glorify God and we glorify Him by being women. The more womanly we are the more perfectly God is praised.31

The fall of Satan was the result of his refusal to submit to the Headship of God. Satan was not content with being the most beautiful of God’s creatures; he wanted to be like God (Isa. 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:12-17). When Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden he enticed her to rebel against her assigned role and to be ‘like God’ (Gen. 3:5). That is Satan’s way, attempting men and women to rebel against the role to which God has assigned them, to act independently, to be fulfilled, but in some way other than the way God has prescribed. In every case where man chooses Satan’s path rather than God’s, he finds frustration and bondage, but the one who submits to God finds freedom and fulfillment (cf. John 8:31-32).

The Practical Implications
of Submission to Headship in the Church

What are the practical ramifications of the woman carrying out her role under the headship and leadership of men in the church? Clearly, a woman is not to take any position of leadership and authority in the church meeting. Again, it seems obvious that a woman should never allow herself to be in a position of leadership or authority over men. The Headship of Jesus Christ, His leadership over the church, is to be carried out by men.

I must say that this might very well mean that leadership and teaching might not be as good under the leadership of men. In some churches I am certain that there are godly women who could do a better job of preaching than the pastor. But the church of Jesus Christ is to operate on the basis of principle, not pragmatism.

I would understand that women are not to speak in the church meeting whenever in so doing they ‘have the floor.’ Surely we would not forbid women from participating in congregational singing. Personally I would not hesitate to allow a woman to sing in a duet or ensemble in which a man is participating, but I would be reluctant to ask a woman to sing a solo in the church meeting, since to sing is to teach (Col. 3:16).

What Ministry Can a
Woman Have in the Church?

So much has been said in the past about what a woman cannot do that I have not spent a great deal of time reiterating those things. What really matters is what a woman can do in order to minister in the church. Let me make several suggestions.

First, a married woman can find fulfillment in the church by doing what she was designed to do. We have already said that it is not permitted for a woman to rule or have authority in the church, since this role has been assigned by God to men. I want you to notice a rather significant passage in the book of Genesis: “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth’” (Gen. 1:26).

Did you notice that God said ‘Let them rule’? Man and woman were to rule over God’s creation, and thus both were created in God’s image. Woman’s subordinate role no more keeps her from participating in ruling the creation than our Lord’s subordination to the Father restricts Him from rule. But how is the woman to participate in ruling over creation? That is given in the second chapter of Genesis: “Then the LORD God said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him’” (Gen. 2:18). Man was not complete without woman. God created woman for man, Eve for Adam, in order that she might complete him, and more importantly here, that she might help him to carry out his intended task. Woman does rule, but as the helper of her husband. No wonder it is assumed in the New Testament that elders are married. No wonder that in 1 Timothy 3:11 a part of the qualification of a deacon, and I think elders, too, is that their wives be godly women.

Here we come upon one of the great problems of the liberation movement, for it seems to me that both men and women are facing an identity crisis in which they want to know who they are. The difficulty is that men and women today refuse to marry and thereby to become one flesh. Men and women want to marry without losing their identity, but as I view the two becoming one flesh both the husband and the wife find their identity now as one flesh. Too many couples want the advantages of married life without any sacrifice so far as their individual rights are concerned.

(1) Woman is not to find her fulfillment in doing her own thing, going her own way, even in having her own ministry; she is to find fulfillment by helping her husband to rule and to lead. She should view herself as her husband’s helper in ruling the home, as well as in ruling and ministering in the church. All too often husbands and wives are going their own individual ways, even in church ministry, when they should be serving and ministering together. Now I think that it is good and proper for men to minister to men, and women to women, but we need a great deal more ministry on a couple to couple and family to family basis. Women should find their ministry in conjunction with their husband’s gifts and abilities and desires. The motivation for the godly wife should be to advance her husband and his ministry. One aspect of this is staying out of his way—allowing him to assume leadership in the home and in the church. The other part is encouraging your husband to discover his spiritual gifts, and then seeking to discover how your gifts compliment and reinforce his. Far too many of us have been obsessed with ‘our ministry’ when we should be seeking to help others discover their ministry. The amazing thing for the wife is that as she does this she will have a ministry for herself as well

(2) A woman will fulfill her ministry in the church when she operates in the sphere which God has ordained for her. The primary sphere for the woman which God has ordained is the home. Now I know that some wives are better mechanics than their husbands, and that some husbands are better cooks than their wives. But this does not do away with the fact that God has ordained the home as the primary sphere of the woman. It should not be necessary to document this, but I think perhaps I should. In his instructions to Timothy, Paul has this word concerning young widows: “Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach” (1 Tim. 5:14). Notice these women are told to keep house. We find a similar expression in Paul’s letter to Titus where the older women are to teach the younger women to: “… love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored” (Titus 2:4b-5).

If there were ever a picture of the fully ‘liberated woman’ it is that drawn for us in Proverbs chapter 31. It is obvious that this woman is given a great deal of latitude and responsibility by her husband, but it is also clear that the central base of operations is the home. This is the sphere which God has appointed for the woman. The home and its related responsibilities are even the central thrust of the ministry of the woman who is more mature and perhaps gifted to teach. We just read the portion of Scripture from Titus 2:4-5 where the older women are to teach the younger women to be good wives and mothers, and housekeepers. It is a sad thing when young girls are raised in Christian homes which teach them to disdain the womanly arts of food preparation, sewing, and rearing children. There is a desperate need for this kind of ministry today as many young mothers did not have the opportunity to observe their mothers being housewives, because they were out working to support the family.

Now I can hear some of those single or divorced women saying, “But what about me? I’m not married. What can I do?” My answer, in short, is this, do what you see the godly women doing in the New Testament. In the New Testament we are taught and shown by example that we have an obligation to those who are orphans and widows, to those who are sick and destitute. Although Timothy is instructed to teach the older and younger men, and the older women, he is not told to teach the younger women (Titus 2:1-8). Women can surely minister more effectively to other women. Notice with me the requirements which Paul sets down for the widow who is to be put on the role of those who are regularly supported by the church: “Having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work” (1 Tim. 5:10).

In Acts chapter nine we are told of Dorcas, who worked with the widows making garments, I would assume for use either by the needy or by those who ministered in the church.

Conclusion

According to the New Testament women cannot be leaders in the church, but they can help their husbands lead. Women should concentrate their efforts in the sphere of the home, and they should concentrate in the areas of ministry and service to others. Fulfillment is knowing your assigned role and then doing it to the glory of God. May God raise up godly women who will minister to and through their husbands, young women who will minister to those in need, older women who will minister to younger women, teaching them to be godly women and wives and mothers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 Ralph H. Didier, “Paul’s Views on Women,” The Presbyterian Journal, 12-4-74, p. 7.

19 William O. Walker, “1 Cor. 11:2-16 and Paul’s View of Women,” Journal of Biblical Literature, March, 1975, pp. 94-110.

20 Ibid., p. 109.

21 Wayne A. Meeks, The Writings of St. Paul: A Critical Edition (New York: Norton, 1972), p. 38.

22 “Paul seems to have been an impetuous, gutsy, sometimes cranky guy.” Joyce Erickson, “A Biblical View of Women,” Seattle Pacific College Alumni Magazine, Autumn, 1974, p. 1.

23 Richard C. Devor, “When We’re Blindsighted by the Gospel,” Encounter, Autumn, 1974, p. 368f.

24 Ibid., p. 381.

25 Cited from a review of “Man as Male and Female,” by Patricia Gundry, Moody Month, October, 1975, p. 36.

26 Gary North, “The Covering FOR the Woman’s HEAD: Another View,” The Banner of Truth, October, 1971, p. 26.

27 The source information on the first sentence in this quote is unavailable.

28 William Barclay, The Letters to the Galatians and Ephesians (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, [revised edition], 1976), p. 168.

29 Linda Sellevaag, “Jesus and Women,” HIS, May ’73, p. 10.

30 Elisabeth Elliot Leitch, “A Christian View of Women’s Liberation,” Interest, November, 1975, p. 5.

31 Ibid., p. 4.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic
Steven

Hi Arlene, you make some great points here, and shows that wisdom and age trump youth every time. I am aware of Deborah, Rahab, Sarah and most important Mary who was chosen to bring our Lord and Savior to us (amen ).R

Arlene, I think Steven's article expresses my thoughts very well in this matter.

The conversation and main topic and point of this thread is the ROLE of the WOMEN in the Church today. I believe that the article posted is nearly 100% what I was trying to say but was unable to find the words.

Men have different roles than women in the church today neither one is more important than the other but they are distinct.


As for Bruce, surely you cannot say of all his posts you don't agree with anything he says ?? I cant believe that, I think your words for Bruce are a bit harsh, he is also a member of the body of Christ, and yes, we all have issues and differences, I am no exception, but I keep pressing forward to the high calling of Christ, and glad to see we can all come to this site ( thanks Steven ) and work together ( iron sharpens iron ) to find the truth and the narrow road.

My recollection of Bruce and his understanding of who Israel is are identical to your views.


Secondly, again I believe Bruce believes in a pre wrath rapture position based on his posts.



Thank you Arlene, have a blessed day.
Agape, Bob

Hi Bob....

I'm sitting here chuckling at all I've seen in this series of postings....

Who is it who said, "Thou doth protest too much!"...maybe Shakespeare??

As for the title "The Role of Women In The Church", it's actually an OXYMORON!! There are no WOMEN OR MEN in the "body of Christ"...re-read Galatians 3:28. If GOD, HIMSELF, says there are no "WOMEN OR MEN" in His "Body", then why do some men insist on giving WOMEN "their role"???

Galatians 3:28 lists these kinds of people in the "body of Christ":

Jews....What is their role?
Greeks...What is their role?
bond....What is their role?
free....What is their role?
male....Their role is to be "head" over the female, according to some.
female...Their role is to be "subservient" to the male, according to some.

Yet, GOD SAYS, Ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus."

I WILL ALWAYS, AND WITHOUT DOUBT, BELIEVE GOD IN EVERYTHING!

Well, you all seem to have thoroughly covered your view of the "male" and "female" roles in the "body of Christ"!! So, now you can continue to let us know what the roles are of the others listed in Galatians 3:28.

God said we are all the same. You say we have different roles. Since you hold this to be true, I would like a listing for the roles of the others in the "body" as well!! You can't leave the others out when you've listed the other two as having different functions!!

THIS SHOULD BE VERY INTERESTING.....I'll be waiting for your answer...

BTW....Since women should be "silent" in the churches, then is it still ok for a deaf and dumb woman to use "sign language", or should her hands be tied up?

Or maybe it would be better for just MEN to go to church and leave their wives at home. After all, why should she learn from others when her husband knows it all, anyway? And what about wives whose husbands are unbelievers? Or widows?

And how about the children? Separate the boys from the girls so you can teach the girls how LITTLE value they are in the "body of Christ"...and that way they will learn to shut up BEFORE they become women.

[Sounds a little like Islam to me....]


Anyway, thanks for the humor...I really did enjoy it!! I see a lot of the "Jezebel" spirit all over the place today!!! It's the "soul" part taking over the "spirit" part. (See article by J. Preson Eby....he's a MAN, so you can read it.)

Patti and I are having a very enjoyable time throwing our views out there!! She is a wonderful, very spiritual, and extremely educated female on the things of God!! And I wouldn't shut her up or change her in any way!! We don't argue....we discuss! And then we give Biblical points on our views as to why we think the way we do. But then, we're women...and I wouldn't change a thing about that!!

And, Bob, I think you're essentially a very nice man! Unlike some, you are willing to listen and evaluate things without an extreme "prejudice" as some have....although, I think you listen to others for your views at times. Listen to your heart....and let the Holy Spirit lead you to the truth.

Arlene

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Hi Arlene, WOW, major rabbit trail, why don't we get back on POINT of what I actually said to start with, I asked why God choose all MEN to pen the bible, and about Eve being deceived in the Garden being a reason for this, and Woman having specific and different roles as Men do, and that Woman are not to teach or have authority over a Man, its not a question of what I think, or what you think, its a question of what God and His word says, PERIOD !
If we MAKE the scripture what we want it to be, instead of what it really says and means, that is not rightly dividing the word, that is changing the word to fit our feelings, fleshly, not spiritual to say the least.

Here is a good article that clearly uses scripture in the correct context, I hope this helps your understanding and benefits and edifies all.

Arlene, I am not a good orator, so please forgive me, I do my best with the Strength of the Lord.



Question: "Women pastors / preachers? Can a woman be a pastor or preacher?"

Answer: There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors/preachers. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.

The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12). In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13-14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority.

There are many “objections” to this view of women in ministry. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education were a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the women of Ephesus from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek/Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in the passage could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words refers to men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to all men and women, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.

Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women in ministry is in relation to women who held positions of leadership in the Bible, specifically Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah in the Old Testament. This objection fails to note some significant factors. First, Deborah was the only female judge among 13 male judges. Huldah was the only female prophet among dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel—hardly examples of godly female leadership. Most significantly, though, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue. The book of 1 Timothy and the other Pastoral Epistles present a new paradigm for the church—the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves the authority structure for the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

Similar arguments are made using Priscilla and Phoebe in the New Testament. In Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, perhaps indicating that she was more “prominent” in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).

In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders/bishops/deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders/bishops/deacons.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the “reason” perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with “for” and gives the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived.” God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. This order of creation has universal application in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable, but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.

Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html#ixzz2eQwgQ6g4



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

Nice going, Bob!!

Well, all three of you "gentlemen" (and I use that term very loosely here) have expressed your opinion that women should be silent and let men do the teaching.

I would not want to go against what you believe very strongly....

So, therefore, you will hear nothing but SILENCE from me....and that should be pleasing to you all....

Arlene


Proverbs 26:12..."Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him."

Yes...The Bible tells it just like it is...

Hi Arlene, I would never expect a reaction like this from you, that is not what the article says, but how you see it, the women's role is clearly spelled out, so if you don't abide by it, you are not doing the will of God.
If we all ( including myself ) followed the scripture we would be a lot better off, and the world would be a truly greater place for everyone, we just don't get it, or we would do just that, the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.
The bottom line is that YOUR WORD is not the final authority here or anywhere else, its Gods word that is Sharper then any two edged sword.

I truly believe woman has somewhat USURPED AUTHORITY over the man in several areas, and is the result of many problems both in the family and the world today, just look around its very clear to see.
Man is no exception to this, and is guilty as charged, all have fallen short, non are perfect ( except Jesus ).
I was the only son from broken home, never knowing my mother,( she left when I was 1 year old) and how much I wonder how different both her and I would be today had we had each other growing up. When I would go to friends for holidays and such, I would always notice how wonderful my friends mom's were, and how I wished I had my own mother and the special bond that comes with that.
A women's ROLE is unquestionably a VITAL part of Man and our existence, and cannot be overlooked by any means, but I can truly see from first hand knowledge why God gave women and men ROLE'S that when are not followed they can and do have severe consequences as seen by the mess we all are in these days.
Anything I have said has been in love for all man (woman) kind.

Agape, Bob

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes


To everyone, including myself.

Colossians 4:6

King James Version (KJV)


Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Good one Bob,
But let us consider what Jesus had to say to the Pharisee....ye vipers, ye white washed tombs, who consider the outside of the cup while the inside is filthy. You serpents who are of your father the devil, who won't enter into the Kingdom yourself and prevent others from doing so.

It is not okay to just dismiss the Truth. That is the whole problem with our pastors and preachers and modern day lukewarm churches. We must look inside ourselves and deal with our own spiritual messes before we point fingers at others and tell them to just behave like a Christian, and the rest will come. Are you into the fake it until you make it crowd? What was being pointed out in Arlene's article was the truth about what is inside of us all...male or female...it was not about our roles in the Church, the literal church, it was about our roles as saved souls in the Body of Christ. That should not have been difficult to see, if you really read what she had to say.

One thing I will say that is really positive about women, they sure seem to be able to SPIRITUALLY DISCERN MATTERS MUCH BETTER THAN MEN. I would love to meet a man who really takes His role in the Church as SPIRITUAL LEADER, seriously and stops with everything being materially based. Where are these men? It would surely be nice to happen upon one.

Please forgive me, but I am shocked by how this subject got so far removed from its original topic, which had nothing to do with Churches or husbands and wives, but did have to do with looking at the inside of one's cup, not just polishing the outside!!

Praise the Lord!

Patti C.

Hi Bob,

Excellent comment and post!


Hi Patti,

I'm sorry to see this comment since Bob was doing all he could to keep peace and be a peacemaker.

Yes, we all know that MEN and WOMEN have made errors in interpreting scripture and yes Jesus did let the Pharisees have it, but Jesus also gave GRACE to the HUMBLE and JESUS did resist the proud.

Thanks Bob, for your effort to keep peace without insulting anyone or anybody.

Also for trying to let the WORD of God instruct us.

God Bless

Steven