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FD: DP: "Compare 144k to the 24 Elders"

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
Link: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/dp713.htm
Note: Before commenting on any posts please make sure you either watch or read each post in it’s entirety. Before, making a comment, if you don’t have the time to watch or read fully please restrain from commenting. When you do this it will help to reduce confusion.

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DP (13 July 2013)
"Compare 144k to the 24 Elders"




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Doves, this is my third post on symbols in the book of Revelation and the interpretation of the subsequent chapters of Rev. based on the symbols' given in the earlier chapters............especially chapters 2 and 3 which are clearly written to the Church.

Unfortunately, many of us....me included....have read the prophecy books of some very famous authors. It is almost unanimous that the belief is that the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel is taken literally. That is, there will be 144,000 Israelites in number who will be sealed. Then there has been some debate on what these 144,000 do. Some say they will evangelize the earth, others say not.

However, let's forget the traditional teaching that these 144,000 are literal in number.

Think about this. Note that in Chapter 4 John is caught up to the throne and sees 24 Elders. Evidently he saw the actual number of 24 .............Elders.....just as he later saw the actual number of 144,000.

But, most do not believe these 24 Elders represent ONLY 24 individuals of the Church who may be raptured!!!

Then in chapter 7..........why would be believe the 144,000 is the actual, literal number of those sealed??

If you are going to be consistent in interpreting the numbers of Rev. then how can you say the 24 Elders represent a Group that is raptured..............which is perhaps in the millions................and then turn around and say that the 144,000 is the exact number who are sealed????

By the way, WHY do we rightly believe that in Rev. 4 the 24 Elders represent the Church overcomers who are raptured?

Because of the identifying signs given in chapters 2 and 3 ...............which describe the overcomers..............and then we Compare those signs to the description of the 24 Elders.

If you read carefully chs 2 and 3 you will notice the descriptions of the overcomers. What are some of these descriptive signs?

One is they will be given thrones to sit on.............see the text, and look it up yourself in chs. 2 and 3.

Another is that they will be dressed in white.

Another sign is that they will be given crowns ( let no man take your crown!).

Notice that these promises are to the Overcomers only, which promises are given at the end of each description of each church.

THEN.

We come to chapter 4.

We see 24 Elders.

They are described as:

They are seated on thrones.

They are dressed in white.

They are wearing crowns.

Case closed. The 24 Elders are clearly the Overcomers of the Church! The descriptions of the Overcomers in chs 2 and 3 turn out to be "key'' in understanding the rest of the book of Rev.

One other clear use of the description of the churches that is key to understand another, later verse in chp. 12 is this. IN ch 2:26,27 a promise is given to the Overcomers that they will be given authority over the nations and that they will rule them with a ''rod of iron''.

Then in ch 12 the manchild who is caught up to heaven is to ''rule all nations with a rod of iron''. See Rev 12:5. This shows that the manchild, although singular in description represents a group of overcomers....plural!

One concluding note.

The book of Revelation is in sequence.

Howerer, there is more than one description of the event we call the rapture. I have just shown how the 24 elders in heaven in chapter 4 represents those raptured..........and also that the manchild who is caught up to heaven in chapter 12 is also a group of the overcomers who are raptured. They are the same.

So, although the book is written in 'general sequence' we must be able to notice when the rapture occurs in the book............for when that event happens, the story starts over and is told again!

Revelation ch. 12, starting off with the rapture, clearly is a new 'start' because it starts off with the rapture. If you look back at the end of chapter 11 you will notice that the Kingdom of God comes since the 7th/FINAL/ TRUMPET is sounded.

May the Holy Spirit bless our understanding of this book.

A blessing is pronounced on those who 'read and understand' the prophecies of this book. It might be easy to read it, but not so easy to properly understand it. To do so requires understanding that the Holy Spirit gives internal evidence of what the signs are.

dp





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven



Re: FD: DP: "Compare 144k to the 24 Elders"

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
Link: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/dp713-1.htm
Note: Before commenting on any posts please make sure you either watch or read each post in it’s entirety. Before, making a comment, if you don’t have the time to watch or read fully please restrain from commenting. When you do this it will help to reduce confusion.

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DP (13 July 2013)
"Response to Gino, ''who are the Jews''"




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2013/gino711-4.htm

Gino, you asked the following:

''Were you saying that the physical nation of the Jews are not the false Jews mentioned in 2:9?


Or were you saying that the physical nation of the Jews in John’s time, were false Jews?


Or were you saying that the physical nation of the Jews in our time, are false Jews?''



I do not claim to know all things. But, in the first century it was clear that Paul, for example, had to 'fight' Judaisers who said 'you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses' to be saved. It was a ''big deal'' in Paul's time.



John wrote Revelation later than Paul's writings.

So it is my opinion that John was also saying that those who 'claim they are Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan' was speaking of the Jews back then who taught the same heresies that Paul had to fight.



Notice also that in chapter 11 of Rev. that Jerusalem is called spiritually ''Sodom and Egypt''..........going by memory. So, yes both Paul and John evidently had to fight the 1st century Jews who believed that salvation was based on law keeping.



Now, as far as the Jewish nation.............or the nation of Israel, Paul also taught Clearly in Romans chs 9-11, especially ch 11 that even though the nation of Israel has been rejected for rejecting Christ, that the entire nation will be Grafted back into the Abrahamic stock/tree.



So, no, says Paul, God has not cast off the physical nation of Israel which includes the Jews. He will bring them back into the ''salvation tree'' of Abraham. Currently the Church is in that ''salvation tree''.......but in Romans ch 11 it is clear God will bring Israel back in also! ''And so all Israel (the physical nation) shall be saved....the scripture says.



Back to the book of Revelation, with the above understandings, John did refer to Jews who are of the ''synagogue of Satan''.



For me at least, this tells that the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel of which Judah is a part and in some cases represents the entire nation........is not speaking of the literal nation of Israel.....based on the internal evidence of the book of Revelation itself.



These same 144,000 are later called Firstfruits unto God. This is a description of the Church Overcomers......not the physical nation of Israel which comes to salvation later.



These are my thoughts. Others may disagree. See my most recent post on the 24 Elders and the 144,000.



Certainly nobody believes that the 24 Elders represent only 24 people that will be raptured. Therefore it is my belief that likewise the number 144,000 represents a Group, not limited to the number of 144,000.



dp






++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven



Re: FD: DP: "Compare 144k to the 24 Elders"

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
Link: http://www.kingdomandglory.com/art/art35.pdf
Note: Before commenting on any posts please make sure you either watch or read each post in it’s entirety. Before, making a comment, if you don’t have the time to watch or read fully please restrain from commenting. When you do this it will help to reduce confusion.

Thank you for visiting Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum!

Please add us to your favorites!
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Link: http://www.kingdomandglory.com/art/art35.pdf





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven



Re: FD: DP: "Compare 144k to the 24 Elders"




For Steven...

Good posting!

Arlene