Arlene,

I do not know why the Lord put it in my heart to talk to you but he did! I agree with some of your thoughts, BUT! Stop for a minute and listen to what I am saying, and show ME where you get your info about the children of Israel not being called JEWS! And I know for a fact that it says there are 144,000 Israelites in the book of revelation chapter 7...,.

Revelation 7:4....... And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of ALL the TRIBES of "THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

The Southern tribes were called the Children of Israel!
The Northern tribes were called the House of Israel!

Revelation 7:4 says All the tribes of the children of Israel, so the Northern tribes are conclusively included as children of Israel also in this verse!

Ezekiel 37:16... Moreover thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the CHILDREN of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of E'phra-im, and for all the HOUSE of Israel his companions:
17.... And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
This whole chapter is about the reunion of ISRAEL! JEWS and Christians! Both houses of Israel were blatant sinners and were punished by God but he made a promise to ABRAHAM and he keeps it in this chapter.

I showed you where in the Old Testament that the JEWS were at WAR with the House of Israel OR The Northern Kingdom.

II. Kings 16:1.... In the seventeenth year of Pe'kah the son of Rem-al-li-ah Ahaz the son of Jo'-tham king of Judah began to reign.
2... Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LOFD his God, like David his father.
3... But he walked in the ways of the Kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
4... And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
5... Then Re'zin king of Syria and Pe'kah son of Rem-a-li'ah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they beseiged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
6... At that time Re'zin king of Syria recovered E'lath to Syria, and drave the Jews from E'lath: and the Syrians came to E'lath and dwelt there unto this day.

You said that Judah was never called Jews! It says right there in II. Kings that Ahaz was the king of Judah and Pe'kah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war and besieged AHAZ!

There is your CONNECTION!!! If Ahaz is the king of JUDAH and it says that the JEWS were drove out

This is PROOF that when God talks about the Jews he is talking about the Southern Kingdom and the HOUSE of Israel is talking about the Northern kingdom. The House of Israel OR (The Northern Kingdom) was at WAR with the Children of Israel OR (The Southern Kingdom).

I have also shown you, in the New Testament where the JEWS are called as well as the Gentiles, regardless of their faults!

I. Corinthians 1:23... But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24... But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Yes, they made an error! But Jesus asked God the father to forgive them!
Luke 23:34... Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Yes, Revelation is about Spiritual Israel! But EVERYTHING after death is about the Spiritual, in the Bible. Of course it is Spiritual Israel. And of course Revelation is talking about the government of GOD. There is a calling out to many to be part of that government but only a few are chosen. That is what revelation 7, The 144,000 Israelites, is all about. revelation chapter 5 tells us about Gods throne and how it is set up. There is a structure to it and the 144,000 are a part of that structure. They reappear with Jesus on mount Sion after they have obviously been killed somewhere between chapter 7 and chapter 14.....

Mount Sion represents God's governmental seat!

I believe this happens at Revelation 11:7... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and kill them. Revelation 14:4 tells us they are the firstfruits unto God. If they are the firstfruits then they are the BARLEY HARVEST, the first to be taken to heaven in the end times in revelation and that happens at revelation 11:12... And they heard a great voice in heaven saying unto them, Come up hither, And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 14:1.... And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Holy Jerusalem is to made up of living stones..... I believe that is the Church of God. It is built of individuals in Christ Jesus and it is presided over by Gods government, of which the 144,000 are a part of....

Revelation 20:4.... And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This clearly is talking about a people that refuse the anti-christ in the end times because they lose their heads for their witnessing of Jesus and the word of God. So they are slaughtered. The 144,000 fit this scenario.

It would explain how the words "many are called but few chosen" could be rendered.

They are of a different flock but of the same breed, so to speak, (Christian). I believe this is the differentiation that Jesus made when he was teaching the disciples and why he talked in parables. He started with the government and delegated to the disciples to build his church and how to go
about doing it.

No one knows it all. I certainly don't claim to.
But I do know that the word Signified that is used in Revelation 1:1 is not the same as the meaning of the word Symbolized! Jesus showed John his servant things which must come to pass and sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John. He gave John a SIGN so that he would know it was from GOD!

I was inspired to talk with you by the holy spirit! Maybe you can tell me why?

Hi Mike!!

Thanks for asking!! Communicating is very important, and that's what Christians should have...next to faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Forget all that confusing stuff you talked about in the OT. Very few Christians can understand it anyway. It has nothing to do with the question of the "Jews"..."to be or not to be, that is the question". What I'm referring to is the WORD "Jew"....where did it come from??

There is a "law of first mention" that is said to be important in interpreting things in the Bible.

II Kings 16:6.."At that time Resin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day:"

That scripture is a clear as "mud" in defining who the "Jews" were/are! And God does not work this way....at least in my own experience. So, I determined to find out where the WORD "Jew" came from. They were some "people" who were driven out of some land for some reason.

So, I searched further. The "law of first mention" didn't work here, and it always had in the past. So, maybe a search of the NAME would tell me what I wanted to know. And it did!

This is how the name "JEW" got to be put into the Bible in the first place:


http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm


Piece of the article:

The translation into English of the Gospel by John, XIX.19, from the Greek in which it was originally written reads "Do not inscribe 'the monarch of the Judeans' but that He Himself said 'I am monarch.'" In the original Greek manuscript the Greek "basileus" appears for "monarch" in the English and the Greek "Ioudaios" appears for "Judeans" in the English. "Ioudaia" in Greek is "Judea" in English. "Ioudaios" in Greek is "Judeans" in English. There is no reason for any confusion.

If the generally accepted understanding today of the English "Jew" and "Judean" conveyed the identical implications, inferences and innuendoes as both rightly should, it would make no difference which of these two words was used when referring to Jesus in the New Testament or elsewhere. But the implications, inferences, and innuendoes today conveyed by these two words are as different as black is from white. The word "Jew" today is never regarded as a synonym for "Judean" nor is "Judean" regarded as a synonym for "Jew."

When the word "Jew" was first introduced into the English language in the 18th century its one and only implication, inference and innuendo was "Judean." However during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries a well-organized and well-financed international "pressure group" created a so-called "secondary meaning" for the word "Jew" among the English speaking peoples of the world. This so-called "secondary meaning" for the word "Jew" bears no relation whatsoever to the 18th century original connotation of the word "Jew." It is a misrepresentation. . .

There is not a person in the whole English-speaking world today who regards a "Jew" as a "Judean" in the literal sense of the Word. That was the correct and only meaning of the word in the 18th century . . . (Facts Are Facts, by Benjamin H. Freedman, p. 15-21).

The meaning of the word "Jew" in our Bible is not the same as the colloquial idiom.

***********

So, for me, this determines EXACTLY what Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 are saying:

Revelation 3:9..."Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, BUT DO LIE; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

People calling themselves "Jews" today are of the "Synagogue of Satan". I did not say this....GOD DID!! Who, today, CALLS THEMSELVES "Jews"??? That's not a difficult question. A first-grader knows the answer.

So, the 144,000 in Revelation chapter 7 (and 14) cannot possibly be those who call themselves "Jews".....because "Jews" are NOT "Israel". Spiritual Israel are those who are "circumcised of the heart"...not the other end (being polite here):

Romans 2:28-28..."For he is NOT A JEW, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: (vs.29) But HE IS A JEW, which is one INWARDLY, and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

See how great and all-knowing God is. He KNEW how people would corrupt even the Bible, so He put verses in the Bible which would point us to the TRUTH. Some "men" (Christians who are deceived) give praise to people who "call themselves Jews", but they are actually the "synagogue of Satan". And this has been seen in their "fruit" all throughout history!

The Zionist Jews are destroying our world. And I WILL NOT SEE JEWS BE GIVEN THE HONOR WHICH BELONGS TO GOD'S PEOPLE....HIS "Spiritual Israel", who are the Church (believers)...Galatians 6:16. The ones in Revelation chapter 7 refer to "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL", and 144,000 is indicating the "government" of God. And "Jews" are not it!

Arlene

Arlene, thanks for your post. Although it makes me sad that you do not seem to want anybody quoting the Old Testament (except for your one quote). The bible is ONE book! Since God never changes, there should be no question that the Old Testament is valid. The Old Testament foreshadows the N.T. and the N.T. completes the O.T. The word Yehudah is the word that eventually became shortened to "Jews", and it means "Judah" in English. The biblebelievers.org website also implies that the word "Judean" only meant somebody living in that area. But God himself called Abraham to be a "peculiar people" unto the Lord. Peculiar, meaning "set apart" since Abraham was called to walk with God out from his pagan roots.The verse that describes believers of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation talk about the people from every tribe of BOTH north and south O.T. kingdoms of "Israel".They are, in fact, "Jews" called by God to witness. Since they come from the twelve tribes, they are from the bloodlines of "Judah". There is an actual DNA gene that can be determined from blood that points to who those descendants are. God does not renege on his promises to those people. They are considered the "wife" of God. N.T. believers in Yeshua are considered the "bride of Christ". In the bible, in the O.T., it is described when God would draw those people who had been scattered from both north and south kingdoms, back to their land-Israel. He would draw them back while they did not yet believe, and while purifying them through the "time of Jacob's trouble" (i.e. the Great Tribulation), he would give national Israel a new heart when the Messiah comes back to set up his kingdom. That is Jesus (Yeshua). Why else would his bloodline be so perfectly defined in the first chapter of Matthew? To prove his kingship and priesthood bloodline to the "Jews". This proves God's faithfulness to His people, be they "Jewish" or N.T. believers in Yeshua. O.T. believers in God by FAITH believed in the coming Messiah and it was accounted to them for righteousness. Do you discount this? Just curious. I see that you are passionate about this subject and so am I. Having visited Israel more than once, it is clear to me that the country known as Israel would never exist again if God had not ordained it. Why would you say that all that "confusing stuff in the O.T." was "stuff" that very few Christians can understand? This puzzles me also and again, makes me sad.The Holy Spirit's job is to enable us to understand God's word, no matter whether it is "Old Testament" or "New Testament". So, I am puzzled and saddened by your reasoning.

Thank you for your comment, Dawn....

But, you are COMPLETELY missing the point.

You're picking out one tiny "thread" that you think shouldn't be there, and I'm trying to get people to see the whole tapestry!! [In case you missed it, that's a METAPHOR.]

This is NOT an "OT vs NT" thing....it's learning a TRUTH!

I love the WHOLE BIBLE. God's instructions are within it. So, I read it ALL.

And as Steven has so wisely said, READ THE WHOLE THING BEFORE YOU MAKE A COMMENT. Did you open the link and read what it says?? If you had, you wouldn't even have made the LONG, IRRELEVANT comment that you did.

It reminds me of something told to us in the NEW TESTAMENT....II Timothy 3:7-8...."Ever learning, and NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (vs.8) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, SO DO THESE ALSO RESIST THE TRUTH: men of CORRUPT MINDS, REPROBATE CONCERNING THE FAITH."

This applies to "women" as well.

And, BTW: There are a heck of a lot of things in this world to be "SAD" about. But this should not be one of them. And if you're "puzzled", then I can't help you with that one! Someone is teaching you WRONG DOCTRINE.

I tell you these truths in "Christian love"...



Arlene

Hi Arlene, I read the article, oh and sorry Mike if I am going off topic. Okay so what I got from the article is that the term "Jew" is like the term "American" that is to say it pertains to where you live not your race, and Jew and Judean are interchangeable, so one could say a Jew is someone who lives in Judea and can be of any race like and American is someone who lives in America but can be of irish decent, right? Israelites are people of genetic decent of Jacob, and Judahites are people of genetic decent of the tribe of Judah who may or may not live in Judea, am I still right? So my real question is does this change anything as far as the prophetic calendar timeline regarding the rebirth of Israel in 1948 or is it null and void because of the people who occupy the land? Does that make sense?