Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it


were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So all of revelation from chapter 4 and onwards are things later than John's time



Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders


sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

A description of the Church



Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside,
sealed

with seven seals.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the
seals

thereof?

So the 24 elders are in Heaven before the seal judgments are opened



Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for
thou

wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The number 24 must be representive of a larger number, because they are people out of every kindred, and

tongue,
and people, and nation. And again they sound like the Church, being redeemed by Christ's blood



Also when people say that the man child in chapter 12 is Jesus, it cannot be, because from chapter 4 onwards it's
about

the things hereafter, that is after that time of John being in the Spirit, receiving this revelation from the
Lord



God Bless

John

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Hi John,


Thank you for posting!

Good to see you comments and thoughts.

Interesting interpretation.

Here is another one I have seen for an explanation of the 24 elders.

There are many different ideas and points of view.

I do not profess to know but thought I would share this interpretation.

God Bless

Steven

======================
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/24-elders-revelation-heaven.htm
======================

The 24 Elders: Who Are They And When Did Get To Heaven


The popular figurative interpretation that the 24 elders represent the raptured Church could be wrong. Consider this literal interpretation explaining how they really can be 24 elders in Heaven.




I think the question of who the 24 elders are is a question a lot of people have wondered, including me. And I think I finally deduced the most reasonable literal scriptural "allegory-free" answer to the question a few years ago.

By the way, I think the question stands whether you believe in a pretrib rapture or not. Because John is seeing the 24 elders and four creatures in Heaven in his time. There's nothing indicating that it is a future scene. It's simply the throne room in Heaven. Later we do get a scene of the same throne room in the future, but this time with many souls standing on it singing the song of Moses and the song of the lamb. That appears to be after the rapture, or gathering of the Firstfruits to Heaven for sure. It happens after the 7th trumpet and the seven bowl angels are seen parading out to deliver their deadly payload (Rev 15:1-6).

So how did the 24 elders get there back in the First Century when John received the apocalyptic vision after Jesus' death? Well, first, let's make sure that they are men and not angels so we do not solve a problem that does not exist.

24 Elders Men, Not 24 "Elder Angels"

Revelation 4:4-And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Here's why I feel these cannot be angels but must be men as it seems (although glorified men).
1.It says they are elders - I cannot find the word ever applied to angels. This makes sense since angels apparently are all the same age anyway.
2.They sit on thrones and wear crowns - Again you never will find an angel wearing a crown or destined to rule as the thrones imply. On the other hand we are told throughout the Bible that the righteous shall inherit and rule the earth, including the twelve apostles sitting on twelve thrones ruling each of the twelve tribes ( Lk 22:30 ).
3.White Raiment - If they are righteous glorified men in Heaven, this is what they ought to be wearing according to Rev 19:8 as the clothing of the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper will be, in addition to many parables of Jesus.

Is 24 Figurative?

Ok, we've established that they are men. But are they really 24 men or are they representative somehow of all of the righteous who had died up to this point and taken up to heaven? Well, the problem with that idea is that Scripture teaches people do not go to heaven immediately when they die, but they must wait until later to "rise", that is, be resurrected. Even the righteous prophet Daniel was told he would sleep in the grave from which he would only rise at the end of the age to receive his reward:

Daniel 12:13 As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

When are these times of rising? Scripture teaches three:

1 Corinthians 15:22-24-22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Notice there is the obvious resurrection/rapture of the righteous at Messiah's coming that all of us today hope to be part of, as well as the one at "the end" that Revelation 20:5 (and Ezekiel 37) speaks of as when the rest of the (unrighteous) dead are raised. However what we often gloss over is the the fact that at Messiah's resurrection there were also "firstfruits" plural.

Who are "the firstfruits"?

These firstfruits were pictured and predicted in the Torah/Law by the Feast of the Firstfruits rehearsal done each year on the Sunday morning after Passover by a wave sheaf of barley being waved to God by the high priest:

Leviticus 23:10-11-10 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. 11 He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath.

And we find that just as Jesus was raised on that day, so were several Firstfruit saints:

Matthew 27:50-53-50 Y'shua, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice that although the graves were opened at the moment that the earthquake of Jesus's death happened, the inhabitants did not wake up from their "sleep" (the same "rest" that Daniel still is in) and emerge until after Jesus' resurrection. As it happens, in Jewish tradition, the wave sheaf was first marked on Passover before it was cut and waved on Firstfruits. So if all those who had their graves marked were then resurrected with Jesus on the same day, then it would perfectly fulfill the Torah rehearsals as they were performed.

And it would give us a reasonable answer for who the 24 elders in Heaven are. They are the glorified saints who were raised in the "First of the Firstfruits" resurrection of the Messiah. It's the best answer I have-so far =) Drop me a line and share yours if you have a better one.





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

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Quote:

Because John is seeing the 24 elders and four creatures in Heaven in his time. There's nothing


indicating that it is a future scene.

End Quote



When John saw the Throne, One sitting on the throne, the 24 Elders etc,

there's no telling if this
part is in John's time or future.

But everything that happens that John is shown is future, like the opening of the first

seal

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice


which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,

and I will
shew thee things which must be hereafter.



God Bless

John

I don't see the 24 elders being in Heaven 2000 years ago, and then the chapter jumping to the
opening of seal one, which most say hasn't happened yet

More likely the 24 elders in Heaven, and opening of seals, is still future...perhaps

God Bless

John

more food ( scripture analysis ) for thought

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http://www.aboundingjoy.com/posttrib-fs.html
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Hi John,

Another perspective for thought:


http://www.aboundingjoy.com/posttrib-fs.html

-[snippet]-


The Presence of the 24 Elders in Heaven Implies Pretribulationalism

The presence of the 24 elders in heaven in Rev 4:4 implies a pretrib rapture

ANSWER:
There are two possible answers to this argument:

1 ) Even if they do represent the church, it does not necessarily follow that all the church is in heaven.

2 ) The elders are not necessarily humans. The fact that, in the Greek, the words "men," "them," and "they" are used in Rev 5:8-10 instead of "us" and "we" lend credence to this interpretation. Also in 11:16-18 and 14:3 they are set off from men.

To the argument that only men can sing the song of redemption, notice that the 4 living creatures do so in 5:8-10.


And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Revelation 4:4 )
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed men [Greek] to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made them [Greek] unto our God kings and priests: and they [Greek] shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:8-10 )

And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (Revelation 11:16-18 )

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3 )





The Marriage Supper (Rev. 19 ) Precedes Return

The marriage supper (see Rev 19:7-10 ) precedes the return (see Rev 19:11ff). This implies the rapture has already occurred pretribulationally.

ANSWER:
The words "is come" (v.7 ) (most translations say "has come " ) could be understood to mean "is upon us" or "is immediately coming up" to take place shortly after Christ's descent. We often use the words to indicate an event that has not yet occurred, but whose time "has come."

In Revelation 6:17, for example, the men cry out that the great day of His wrath "is come" (same Greek word as in 19:7 ) The implication is not that the wrath has already occurred, but that it will happen very soon.

In John 17:1 Jesus uses the same Greek word ("is come" ). The Greek is past tense. Yet the clear meaning is that Jesus is referring to an event that is soon to occur--not one that has already occurred.


For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:17 )
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee John 17:1 )

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:7-21 )


The Armies in White (Rev 19 ) Imply Pretribulationalism

The armies clothed in white linen who come with Christ (Rev 19:11ff. ) imply a previous rapture.

ANSWER:
These may be the deceased Christians coming with Christ to receive new bodies at the soon coming resurrection. We can read about obviously not-yet-resurrected Christians with white robes in Rev 6:9-11 (the tribulational martyrs), so why not also in Rev 19?


And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:11-14 )
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:9-11 )




The "Apostasy" is Really the "Departure"
(2 Thessalonians 2:3 )

The word "apostasy" in 2 Thes 2:3 could be translated "departure" and refer to the rapture.

ANSWER:
The word never carries that sense in the New Testament. Also, it is used 40 times in the Septuagint (The Greek translation of the Old Testament), always referring to "apostasy." By New Testament times the word was always used for political or religious revolt, even in other (extra-Biblical) writings. To assume this different meaning for the word is to do violence to the clear meaning and usage of this Greek word.


Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3 )
"falling away" = apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}(Strong's number 646 )

feminine of the same as 647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f

AV - to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1 ) a falling away, defection, apostasy


The Removal of the "Restrainer" Implies Pretribulationalism

The "restrainer" in 2 Thes 2:6 must be the Holy Spirit. His removal must signify the rapture of the church, since He dwells in Christians.

ANSWER:
There are two possible answers to this argument:

1 ) It is not at all obvious from the context that the restrainer is actually the Holy Spirit. The early church and the reformation leaders understood the restrainer to be the civil power which God has ordained to restrain the forces of evil in society by rule of law.

2 ) "Out of the midst" is better translated "out of the way." The Holy Spirit will be working during the tribulation (Mk 13:11; Mt 24:14; Rev 7:9-14 ). He can work independently of the church. Thus one can conceive of the Spirit holding back the Antichrist until the time is right, then being "taken out of the way" to allow Satan to possess the man of sin. If that is the sense of the verse, it does not necessarily imply the church has been removed from the earth!


And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.(2 Thessalonians 2:6 )
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (Mark 13:11 )

[A clear reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in a tribulational setting!]

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14 )

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9-14 )





The Words "Parousia" and "Apocalupsis" Imply Two "Comings"

Scripture uses two words for Christ's second coming: "Parousia," which occurs before the tribulation, and "apocalupsis," ("revelation" ) which occurs after the tribulation.

ANSWER:
Parousia is used in several clearly posttribulational passages (e.g. Mt.24:3, 27, 37, 39; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 )

Apocalupsis is used in several passages to refer to our hope in this age (i.e. not merely the hope of tribulation saints) (see 1 Cor 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7, 13; 4:13 )


And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? (Matthew 24:3 )
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be... But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be... And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:27, 37, 39 )

[Even pretribbers acknowledge that Jesus is referring to His "coming" after the tribulation here. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus clearly says "Immediately after the tribulation" and begins to describe the events leading to His Posttribulational coming.]

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): (2 Thessalonians 2:8 )

[This coming is clearly posttribulational, since it is at this coming that he destroys the Antichrist!]

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (apocalupsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 1:7 )

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing (apocalupsis) of Jesus Christ:... Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation (apocalupsis) of Jesus Christ; (1 Peter 1:7, 13 )

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed (apocalupsis), ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Peter 4:13 )



-[snippet]-




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

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