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The "Resurrection" has been erroneously labeled The "Rapture". 
THERE IS NO RAPTURE

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WE STARTED OUT BELIEVING IN A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE
BUT FOUND OVER TIME AROUND 2006 THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SHARE A 
BIBLE VERSE WHATSOEVER INDICATING A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE

BIBLE VERSES EVIDENCE:

While Yahusha/JESUS was alive, He prayed to His Father: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  John 17:15 (KJV)

Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)


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Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"


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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/garryb1210.htm
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Garry B (10 Dec 2012)
"A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn’t a pre-tribulation rapture go against scripture because Mat 24:21 is before Mat 24:31.



Matthew 24:21 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”



Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”



Strong’s number for wind is 417. anemos an'-em-os from the base of 109; wind; (plural) by implication, (the four) quarters (of the earth):--wind.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

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Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"



Fair Use for Information or Discussion Purposes


http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/mikew1211.htm


Hi Garry
I posted your question at the end of my response.
A pre-trib rapture is the only rapture that "fits" in the Bible. What you quoted in Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:31 is concerning the Second Coming of Jesus. This is exactly what will happen at the end of the tribulation. But the "rapture" was a mystery and Jesus did not reveal the "mystery" until AFTER the stoning of Stephen at which time God called the apostle Paul to be a vessel for the Gentiles.Paul tells us the mystery Gospel and the mystery rapture was "hid" from previous generation.He said God revealed the mystery to him and God called Paul to be OUR apostle. God blinded Israel and put their program on hold until the saving of the people(mostly Gentiles) are complete during our dispensation. Once God raptures up the believers(Body of Christ) then he "starts back" the Gospel of the Kingdom and the previous dispensation he had put on hold.
Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ephesians 3
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The above verses sorta walk you through the basics of what happened. There are many many verses in the Bible that support this clear and logical understanding. The 12 apostles never talked about the rapture. Only Paul did. The Jews are looking for Christ to come back and rule on earth and they will inherit the earth. They will be resurrected in what Revelations calls the "first resurrection". Too many people make the mistake of thinking this is the rapture of the Body of Christ. Clearly when Jesus had talked to the apostles in Matthew 24 he was NOT referring to the "mystery rapture". When John wrote the book of Revelation he did NOT know of the rapture. He was prophecying about the Second Coming and the terrible time the world would be going through.

I hope this helps
Thanks
Mike W

Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"

Hi Scribe, you have made my day today.

I was really in doubt for pretrib rapture. Now it seems your answer that you took from Mike W has given me understanding. I always tried to connect those dots of Jesus, John the revelator and Paul but I confused. Your comment that the rapture is the mystery that only revealed to Paul seems answering all those questions and logically yes.

May God blesses you, till meet in the heaven soon.

Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"


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Rowina (11 Dec 2012)
"To Garry B on Pre-trib rapture--maybe not"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have heard now so many different approaches to rapture timing that I am no longer able to decide which one is right, but oddly enough, I don't care as much as I used to. I am getting old and I may die any time, and I will go to the Lord, and that's what counts. Of course I pray for ALL people on earth to go to the Lord, as many as possible anyway.

That said, I think there are some things in pre-trib rapture theory that stand out, among all the different scenarios I've heard since my husband and I started studying the tapes of Chuck Missler. One is that we will be gone before the AC stands in the new temple (or at least altar) in Jerusalem.
How soon could that be? Very soon, of course. With nightmares in the ME heating up, the various AC candidates could easily get there within months.
But I don't know who the AC is. I've heard several plausible ideas. But I don't know.

The other thing which stands out to me is that we are not destined for "wrath". That means we MUST be gone before mid-trib wrath of God. Does it mean we have to endure the first 3 l/2 years of the Trib? Maybe. But maybe not. Looks to me like the whole trib is said by Jesus to be the worst time in history, and I think He may not want His people to go through the worst. Why? Because what they have already gone through is very very bad, and if worse is coming, He may say to His own, "Come away first."

Now people say that the suffering of Christians has always been terrible, how could be worse? Well, they are right that terrible suffering has come to God's people throughout history. But He said it: "worst". Maybe that means the scope of the suffering, spreading from a few hundred thousand to millions to many millions. Or maybe it means the horror of the mind-bending which will occur, in which Christians will not be able to stand for the faith unless God intervenes. Well, that may not make a lot of sense but it means something to me. Lots of Christians think that with God's grace they could withstand the mind-bending, and they are right; with God's grace ALL things are possible. But still, he said it, "the worst". Worse than the present horror of Christians in North Korea, Worse than the Inquisition. Worse than the martyrs who were killed by Blood Mary or Edward I in England.
Worse than the exploitation of people by cruel tyrants all over the world, as in "Les Miserables", or "Tess", or many other stories of subjugation.
Worse than the Holocaust of WWII. How much worse could we endure? Jesus said it. You won't have to.

Mariel Rowina



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

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Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"


Our New Website URL
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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/jfh1211.htm
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jfh (11 Dec 2012)
"To: Garry B. Re: Rapture before or after"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Could this suggest 'at the same time'? In the twinkling of an eye. [I Cor 15:52] We are the wheat. Mary was the barn for Jesus. I believe that Jesus was conceived on the Hebrew 9th month and 24th day as Haggai suggested [2 Haggai 2:18-19]. That could make his birth Sept 11th as Dr. Ernest L. Martin said in his book "The Star that Astonished the World".

The book by Michael R. Molnar "The Star of Bethlehem" gives the signs occurring in the heavens before his birth.

Doesn’t a pre-tribulation rapture go against scripture because Mat 24:21 is before Mat 24:31.


Matthew 24:21 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”


Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [corners], from one end of heaven to the other.”

May you be blessed by you continued indepth study of God's WORD. JFH



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Our New Website URL
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com

Facebook Page Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum: Please Check it out

Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"


Our New Website URL
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes


http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2012/mikew1211.htm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Facebook Page Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum: Please Check it out:LIKE it!


Mike W (11 Dec 2012)
"response to Garry B pre trib"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Garry
I posted your question at the end of my response.
A pre-trib rapture is the only rapture that "fits" in the Bible. What you quoted in Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:31 is concerning the Second Coming of Jesus. This is exactly what will happen at the end of the tribulation. But the "rapture" was a mystery and Jesus did not reveal the "mystery" until AFTER the stoning of Stephen at which time God called the apostle Paul to be a vessel for the Gentiles.Paul tells us the mystery Gospel and the mystery rapture was "hid" from previous generation.He said God revealed the mystery to him and God called Paul to be OUR apostle. God blinded Israel and put their program on hold until the saving of the people(mostly Gentiles) are complete during our dispensation. Once God raptures up the believers(Body of Christ) then he "starts back" the Gospel of the Kingdom and the previous dispensation he had put on hold.
Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ephesians 3
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The above verses sorta walk you through the basics of what happened. There are many many verses in the Bible that support this clear and logical understanding. The 12 apostles never talked about the rapture. Only Paul did. The Jews are looking for Christ to come back and rule on earth and they will inherit the earth. They will be resurrected in what Revelations calls the "first resurrection". Too many people make the mistake of thinking this is the rapture of the Body of Christ. Clearly when Jesus had talked to the apostles in Matthew 24 he was NOT referring to the "mystery rapture". When John wrote the book of Revelation he did NOT know of the rapture. He was prophecying about the Second Coming and the terrible time the world would be going through.

I hope this helps
Thanks
Mike W

Garry B (10 Dec 2012)
"A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn’t a pre-tribulation rapture go against scripture because Mat 24:21 is before Mat 24:31.



Matthew 24:21 “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”



Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”



Strong’s number for wind is 417. anemos an'-em-os from the base of 109; wind; (plural) by implication, (the four) quarters (of the earth):--wind.





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

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Re: Garry B: "A Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Maybe Not"

Of course, everyone is free to believe as they wish. I can however say that everyone who believes in an "evacuation from out of the world" is going to have to face a time in which it becomes manifestly clear that this is not going to occur. My main hope is that these people don't completely despair just because they were wrong about this; though I perceive this scenario will be pervasive.

Mariel
The other thing which stands out to me is that we are not destined for "wrath". That means we MUST be gone before mid-trib wrath of God.


This is one of the central problems: a false form of reasoning that neglects the biblical pattern of divine protection established consistently throughou the scripture. Why "MUST" we be gone? We see Egypt appointed to wrath in the days of Moses, yet Israel was not taken from out of the world. We see the "unbelieving" Israelites appointed to wrath in the wilderness, yet Joshua and Caleb were not taken out of the world. We see Jerusalem appointed to wrath in the days of the prophets- yet the small remnant was not taken out of the world.

There is no "evacuation from the world" at all ever hinted at in the scripture- not even in the slightest, and exactly the opposite is always the case: divine protection during the time of judgment. There is no "fitting in" of any kind of "taking out of the world" except by trying to hammer a large square peg into a small round hole.

We have under 14 days until Tevet 10 this year. I am beginning to hope this sees the coming of the King of Babylon simply so I will never have to hear phrases like "we MUST be taken out" and "pre-trib rapture" again.

Of all of the doctrines I have ever seen propogated by Christians, this is the one I will be most relieved to see finally go into the fires.