I mean, a hand shake could have sealed the covenant; but instead circumcision. I have read some people trying to understand this; but their reasons seem to fail.

Come on, you lurkers.......help me if you can.

Also......Steven, I will help you pray in some more posters.

Hi David,

Interesting first post....

Welcome to the website.....ybic Steven


Here is the scripture you are referring to?

Gen 17:1-18:1
Genesis 17

17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.


KJV

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Hi David,

I thought I would post this for a brief explanation from a Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Th.M., Ph.D., is founder and director of Ariel Ministries.

So what is your question more precisely?

Would like to learn more.

ybic

Steven



Ariel Ministries' Messianic Bible Study # 007:
JEWS, GENTILES, CHRISTIANS

Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum



The below (Excerpt is posted by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum)

III. THE MESSIANIC JEWISH DISTINCTIVES

The question that now remains is: "What are the Messianic Jewish distinctives in the Body of the Messiah?" In what way, by position and function, does the Jewish believer differ from the Gentile believer? The basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive lies in four lines of biblical truth: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Doctrine of the Remnant, the Doctrine of the Olive Tree, and the Doctrine of the Israel of God.

A. The Abrahamic Covenant
The Abrahamic Covenant is found in various passages in Genesis. In Galatians 3:15-18, a unique distinction is drawn between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Law of Moses: Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man's covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void, or adds thereto. Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ. Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, does not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God had granted it to Abraham by promise.
The point being made here is that the Law of Moses did not disannul the Abrahamic Covenant. The human illustration used is that of a human contract in antiquity. Once it was signed, it could not be changed. While additions could be made later, these additions could never nullify any point in the original. The Abrahamic Covenant was signed by God Himself when He appeared in the form of fire and walked between the animals, which Abraham had prepared (Gen. 15:17). While the Mosaic Law, coming 430 years later, added to it, the Law could in no way change it. Through the cross, however, the Mosaic Law, the addition, was rendered inoperative, but the
Abrahamic Covenant, the original, is still very much in effect.

It is the continuity of the Abrahamic Covenant that provides the first basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive. The Covenant had four primary features to it. First of all, God promised to make a great nation of Abraham; this means the Jews as a whole. The Jews, then, are a nation because of their origin from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Secondly, to this nation God has promised a Land, once called Canaan, often called Palestine, but now the Land of Israel. It is totally irrelevant whether the Jews are in the Land or outside the Land, or whether anyone else may control it by conquest or any other means; the Land belongs to the Jews by divine right. Thirdly, those that bless this nation will be blessed, and those that curse it will be cursed. This perhaps can be viewed as God's foreign policy to the Gentiles in their relationship to the Jewish people. Finally, the sign of the covenant for the members of this nation was circumcision, to be performed on the eighth day after birth.

Since the Abrahamic Covenant is still very much in effect, these four features also involve the Messianic believer both in his position and function. First of all, Messianic Jews are still Jews, for they, like other Jews, are descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Secondly, the homeland for the Messianic believer is the Land of Israel, and this is where his primary loyalty should be despite his place of residence. Believing Jews are in the Diaspora, but they are also in the Galuth, the Exile. Thirdly, the Gentile relationship to the Jews in the blessing and cursing aspects are as true for Jewish believers as for other Jews. Messianic believers who are blessed or cursed because of their Jewishness will find the blessers blessed and the cursers cursed. Finally, there is the matter of circumcision. Since Jewish believers still fall under the other provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant, they fall under this one as well. It is my conviction that Messianic Jews should have their sons circumcised on the eighth day.

But does not the Book of Galatians argue against the practice of circumcision? Yes and no. Circumcision for Gentiles, circumcision on the basis of the Mosaic Law, and circumcision for justification or sanctification are all wrong. The Book of Galatians condemns circumcision as a means for justification. Except for health and medical reasons, there is never any need or requirement for Gentile circumcision. Furthermore, Messianic believers who circumcise on the basis of the Law of Moses are also wrong, since the Law ended with the Messiah. But this same book clearly states that the Abrahamic Covenant is still very much in effect with all its features, and this includes circumcision. So circumcision on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant is right and proper, and it is my conviction that it is still very much in effect for Jewish believers. Paul, who taught the Gentiles not to circumcise, did not so teach the Jews; this is clear from Acts 21:17-26, and from Acts 16:1-3 when he had Timothy circumcised. It was not circumcision per se that was ruled out, rather, circumcision on the basis of Mosaic Law.

B. The Doctrine of the Remnant
The second basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive is described in Romans 11:1-7. The question here is whether or not God has cast off his people Israel. Paul answers in the negative. His proof is himself; he is a Jew who believes in Yeshua. The critic may argue that the Jews who believe are a very small minority; so does it not follow that the nation has indeed been cast off? Again, the answer is negative. What is happening now, Paul explains, is what has always happened throughout Jewish history; that is, it is always the Remnant that believes. This was true in Elijah's day, and it is true today. The fact that the majority do not believe is not evidence enough that the whole nation has been cut off. The point is that in Israel, past, present and future, it is the Remnant that is faithful to the revelation of God. This is also true in this present Dispensation of Grace; the Messianic believers are the Remnant of Israel today. The Remnant is always in the nation, not outside of it; the Messianic Jews, the present-day Remnant, are part of Israel and the Jewish people. Their Jewishness remains distinct.

Isaiah 1:9 and 65:8 point out that it is the Remnant that is keeping Israel as a whole alive. Because of the Messianic Jewish Remnant, God did not permit the success of the many attempts throughout this age to wipe out the Jewish people. Again we see position and function in this basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive.

C. The Doctrine of the Olive Tree
The third basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive is found in Romans 11:16-21 and 24. In this tree there are two types of branches representing Jewish believers and Gentile believers. The Jewish believers are the natural branches; that is, we correspond to the very nature of the tree, it is as if the tree and the natural branches have the same blood type. The wild olive branches are the Gentile believers. It is clearly stated that the presence of these branches in the tree is contrary to nature, the blood type is different. There is an obvious composite difference between the two, which makes them distinct from each other.

D. The Doctrine of the Israel of God
The fourth basis of the Messianic Jewish distinctive is seen in the narrow use of the term Israel. It should be pointed out that the term Israel is never used of Gentiles, whether they are believers or not, nor is it used of the Church; it is used only of Jews. In Romans 9:6-8, Paul states something significant. For a proper understanding of this passage, it is important to keep it in its strictly Jewish context. The point being made is that there are two Israels: Israel the whole composed of all Jews; and Israel the elect, composed of all believing Jews, which is the "true Israel of God." Both groups are Jews and both groups are called "Israel," the difference being that the Jews who are of Abraham by faith as well as by flesh are the true Israel. Israel the whole, the Israel of the flesh, failed; but the elect of Israel, the Israel of God, have not failed. Jewish believers, then, are part of Israel the whole, but in particular, they are the Israel of God. Gentile believers are not in this group. It is a position that is distinct with Messianic Jews.

In Galatians 6:16 Paul says: And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. The Book of Galatians is concerned with Gentiles who were attempting to attain salvation through the Law. They were deceived by thinking they had to be circumcised on the basis of the Law of Moses. Paul states that the important thing for salvation is faith. He then pronounces a blessing on two groups who would follow this rule of salvation by faith alone. The first group is the them, the believing Gentiles, to and of whom he had devoted most of the epistle. The second group is the Israel of God. These are the believing Jews who followed the rule of salvation by faith alone.

E. Conclusion
It is clear, then, that the Messianic Jew is a distinctive element in the Body of the Messiah, and this distinctiveness is based on four lines provided in the Scriptures. The distinction involves position and function. All are equal, yet distinct. Both Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing with God, because God is not a respecter of persons. We are different only in position and function.






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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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Steven


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In my opinion, flesh circumcision is not required anymore. This is clearly explained by Apostle Paul.
What we require now is circumcised heart instead of flesh.

However, I did circumcision not because any covenants but just for a health reason ...:) I remember that uncircumcised is prone to Cancer .... that's it, nothing else religion about it anymore ...

Best,
Gimel Israel

Why did God use this act?
It was only for males
It was an odd act; cutting off
Seems very strange
For infants only days old
So many questions must have been going through Abraham/Sarah mind
Why cut there?