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BUT FOUND OVER TIME AROUND 2006 THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SHARE A 
BIBLE VERSE WHATSOEVER INDICATING A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE


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Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)

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Yahusha is I Am That I Am  (Exodus 3:14)

Yahusha is YHWH  come in the flesh, He put aside His Diety to become a human, born of  a Virgin.

Yahusha is the Word, As The Most High, He spoke all things seen and unseen into existence

When YHWH created Light, He was revealed to the angels. 

John 14:26
"the breath of life"

But the Comforter, which is "the breath of life", whom the Father will send shall teach you all things.

God is not His  Name but a term.  The Holy Spirit is not a person but the very Breath of the Father.

There is no Trinity.  The Father, YHWH  and Yahusha are One  (John 10:30)

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 FOR A REMOTE GENERATION THE LAST GENERATION FOR THE ELECT!

Book of Enoch: http://tinyurl.com/BkOfEnoch

The book of Second Peter and Jude Authenticate the book of Enoch and Vice Versa

Yahusha/JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT:

THE APOSTLES QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT

JEWS WERE CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY

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In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the Bibl

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://prewrathministries.org/prewrath.html
_____________________________________________________________________________________

This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the Bible. There are ten subject areas and each topic is explored by following the list below.

































_____________________________________________________________________________________
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

Just to remind everyone that

(A) Trumpet Judgment (is 1st Wrath of God) which marks the 7shortened-year-period and is before

(B) Vial Judgment (2nd Wrath of God) which is at the end of those days.

pls note also that Gog/Magog WAR in Ezekiel chapters 38,39 has to be fulfilled...7year burning of weapons...Russia&allies had to be destroyed before AntiChrist could really control WHOLE world, right?

So DAY of the LORD has 2 or more fulfillments, right?


I believe the 7 seals being opened by JESUS CHRIST showing VISIONs and NOT Judgments upon the EARTH...
it is the persecutions of devil upon Believers...
the Birthpangs before JESUS RAPTURE HIS Bride...
then WRATH of GOD starts...

We are NOW so very close to the BIRTH of the MAN-CHILD...PreWrath Rapture!

PreWrath Rapture is during 6th Seal prior to Trumpet Judgment and is possibly already inside Tribulation period. Mid-trib?

It is possibly also Pre-Trib because there is a period of 'shortened' DAYs whereby scientifically speaking...the Earth spins faster and POLE-SHIFT had not yet occured.

If POLE-SHIFT occurs on the 6th Seal...Almost >90% of world would be destroyed as in Noah's time.


There would be NO POLE-SHIFT yet...although 1/3 of the EARTH may have been destroyed by this Judgment. Heaven&Earth melt with fervent heat...the 2/3 of EARTH Left...see photo of 1/3 destruction...

http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730271?i=41536745

http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730271?i=41536745

It is therefore NOT PostTrib yet.

(1) there will be at least 1263.5days before 2Witnesses prophesied,killed & 'Rapture?'

(2) there will be 42months(may NOT be 1260days) that the beast would continue to WAR against the REST of those who hold the WORD of GOD.

(3) there will be 1260days(shortened days?)whereby the WOMAN(ISRAEL) flees into the wilderness after the Abomination of desolation.

(4) there will be 2300days(shortened days?) of Daniel's book whereby the Sanctuary(temple mount) and Host(IDF) being trodden under foot? see Daniel 8:11-14

NOTE:_ (1), (2) & (3) may overlap and not necessary be in sequence or not even parallel.

NOTE:_ (4) may be the entire 7year shortened days period.

see website or download for more details:-
www.simplesite.com/7churches

Then there will be PreWrath Rapture again?
before 2nd Wrath of GOD poured out with Great EARTHquake destroying WHOLE EARTH's islands&mountains...

I believe that is a POLE SHIFT due to PLANET approaching very near EARTH since JESUS CHRIST is descending from PLANET CHRIST with RAPTURED SAINTs and ANGELS.

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

We always think of one generation prophecy.

But if even we use 1969, using 7 weeks of 360 days/year, we would arrive at 2011 June as the last possible pretrib rapture or in short tribulation must start shortly after that.
We only have barely 1,5 months to prove it.

Another possibility, 1 generation prophecy has been fulfilled in the past and we should not concern about this anymore. I didn't buy this idea.

Or 1948 and 1967/1969 the born of Israel and the capture of Yerushalayim was not an important event, there should be another important event in the future. I didn't buy this idea either.

So I always come back at that 1967/1969 important event marking the final countdown. If 2011 June/September passed without anything happen, should we throw the idea of one generation prophecy completely as out of context? I myself believe the Word of YHWH will be fulfilled in each detail without mistakes. Now I am confused, we are on the tipping point of one generation prophecy to be expired if nothing happen in 2011 except it is only 3.5 years that would place 2012 / 2014 as another important year.
Frankly what do you think of this? I really want to see that one generation prophecy still at work and will be fulfilled and 1967/1969 event of recapturing Yerushalayim and the commandment to rebuilt the Jewish Quarter was an important event in history of the prophecy fulfillment.

Bless you all...

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/craigo59.htm
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Craig Opal (9 May 2011)
"The Imminent 6th Seal Rapture?"


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If we want to be even more perfect and literal on the Rapture, we need to come to the realization that we are living in between the 5th and 6th seals already and we would find it is still a pre-tribulation Rapture, but it's not where most pre-tribbers think it's going to happen, which many say is before the 1st seal. Just study the 5th seal alone and you will see it can't be a future event, instead it's long since been broken along with the other four.

70 million Christians have already been Martyred since Jesus day. Why would those under the altar in heaven ask Jesus at the 5th seal, when he was going to avenge their murders, if the 7 yr. tribulation had already started? Wouldn't they know like everyone else that there is just 7 short years left? Answer: Yes. The fact is there is nothing new in the first five seals that have not already been occurring for the last two thousand years.

Jesus proclaimed in Luke 21:12, that Christians would be persecuted and killed, but when did this start? It started right after Jesus said it and after he went back to heaven to begin breaking the first five seals. The fifth seal is not describing the completion of the seal, but the beginning.

Also the same lull in time in between Daniels 69th & 70th week, matches perfectly with the Revelatory lull in time we are in between now which is in between the 5th and 6th seal. If we are to believe that there is a lull in between week 69&70, then we also need to be able to plug it into Revelation properly. Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent? Yes I believe it is. In our pre-trib zeal, lets not be so eager to jam a Rapture event into scripture where it does not belong or is described. Revelation Chapter 4’s “come up here” language, is only speaking to John, not a large group of people as we see at the sixth seal.

Also this group of people seen in heaven at the sixth seal has “come out of” the great tribulation, not “come through” as some have incorrectly quoted. Even the original Greek says they have come out of it, not through it. The only question then becomes which portion did they come out of, and we see clearly that they have come out at the beginning, because earlier in the beginning of the seal, the people of earth proclaim God’s first day of wrath is here. So then God’s wrath begins at the 6th seal, not beforehand.

This is a partial article from

http;//www.realchristian.net

More end times articles, videos and sermons can be seen and heard at www.realchrsitian.net.

God Bless you all.



Craig Opal
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

Gimel
We always think of one generation prophecy.

But if even we use 1969, using 7 weeks of 360 days/year, we would arrive at 2011 June as the last possible pretrib rapture or in short tribulation must start shortly after that.
We only have barely 1,5 months to prove it.

Another possibility, 1 generation prophecy has been fulfilled in the past and we should not concern about this anymore. I didn't buy this idea.

Or 1948 and 1967/1969 the born of Israel and the capture of Yerushalayim was not an important event, there should be another important event in the future. I didn't buy this idea either.

So I always come back at that 1967/1969 important event marking the final countdown. If 2011 June/September passed without anything happen, should we throw the idea of one generation prophecy completely as out of context? I myself believe the Word of YHWH will be fulfilled in each detail without mistakes. Now I am confused, we are on the tipping point of one generation prophecy to be expired if nothing happen in 2011 except it is only 3.5 years that would place 2012 / 2014 as another important year.
Frankly what do you think of this? I really want to see that one generation prophecy still at work and will be fulfilled and 1967/1969 event of recapturing Yerushalayim and the commandment to rebuilt the Jewish Quarter was an important event in history of the prophecy fulfillment.

Bless you all...


Dear Gimel,

I believe in Jesus' 1 generation prophecy too.

If we are still here till end of 2011AD...maybe the LAST week of 7years is SHORTened so much(1Full-Day only 12hrs)...
than the actual WEEK according to present 24hr-day is only '1335days'.

Then we have to wait till 2014AD or 2015AD for the Rapture...I dun think so.

Pls note that the 63years (of 365.25days) from 14th May 1948AD till 14th May 2011AD are also 63years of '360'days + 330days.

If God's year=360days...
This means the last 7years has 330days lesser...

2520-330=2190days only.

since there would be 2300days for TempleMount&IDF to be trodden under foot...so the Earth would spin at least 10% faster...

or we say the Day shortened 10%?

I am thinking that 1/3 of the day&night without light...

could it be earth spinning 1/3 faster? 33% faster?

or could it be HAZE or SMOG(smoke-fog-cloud) blocking 1/3 of the sunlight?

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/brucew510.htm
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Bruce Warner (10 May 2011)
"TO: Craig Opal RE: YOUR POST (9 MAY 2011) 6th Seal Rapture"

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Hi Craig,

You have it just right, brother! That is exactly how I have been understanding the Scriptures.

Blessings to you.

YBIC, Bruce Warner

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/marilyna510.htm
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Marilyn Agee (10 May 2011)
"Craig Opal (9 May 2011) "The Imminent 6th Seal Rapture?""


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From: Marilyn Agee
Re: Craig Opal (9 May 2011)
"The Imminent 6th Seal Rapture?"

Hi:

> > If we want to be even more perfect and literal on the Rapture, we need to come to the realization that we are living in between the 5th and 6th seals already and we would find it is still a pre-tribulation Rapture, but it's not where most pre-tribbers think it's going to happen, which many say is before the 1st seal. Just study the 5th seal alone and you will see it can't be a future event, instead it's long since been broken along with the other four.

I can't see how we could possibly be living in between the 5th and 6th seals now. At this point in time, no seals have been broken. Jesus hasn't even been given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth.

Rev 17:14 takes place right after the Rapture has taken place. Of Jesus, it says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL." They are the Philadelphian saints.

Mt 22:14 says, "many are called, but few are chosen." The faithful Philadelphians are chosen.

At the time of this First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17, which is before the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54, Rev 17:12 says, "And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have NOT YET received a kingdom".

At the present time, Earth has been divided into 10 regions, but the ten kings that will rule over these regions have not yet been elected. We are now approaching the time of the first Rapture. After we are gone, the 10 kings will be elected.

The First-Trump Rapture takes place in Rev 4:1. Heaven's door opens and the miraculous Trump of God says, "Come up hither."

No trumpet sounded by an angel starting in chapter 8 says, "Come up hither. Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour (while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ). 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." Those angels have not received their trumpets yet when both the First-Trump Rapture and the Last-Trump Rapture take place.

In Rev 4:4, we see John and 23 other elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles) sitting on thrones in Heaven. When John gets his resurrection body and is caught up to Heaven, we will be caught up to Heaven with him.

We know that the 12 patriarchs are elders from Num 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver (because there are two Raptures); of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY (Heb 12:23), and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR (symbol of a Rapture) of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the PRINCES, which are heads of the thousands of ISRAEL, shall GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."

Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".

Peter is one of the elders.
1Pe 5:1 says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed."

In Rev 5:9, all the First-Trump-Rapture saints out of all nations are seen in Heaven singing the "new song."

Having been caught up with John and the other 23 elders that are part of the Body of Christ in 4:1, these saints are in Heaven in time to witness Jesus being given the seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. The first seal is not broken until 6:1, after the Rapture in 4:1 and after Christ recieves the 7-sealed book in 5:7.

Since the First-Trump Rapture has not yet taken place, the elders are not crowned or enthroned, and Jesus has not yet been given the seven-sealed book. Therefore, none of its 7 seals have been broken.

> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent?

No. It is the Last-Trump Rapture. It comes on the Day of God's Wrath just before the two asteroids of Rev 8:8-11 impact Earth.

> > Yes I believe it is. In our pre-trib zeal, lets not be so eager to jam a Rapture event into scripture where it does not belong or is described. Revelation Chapter 4’s “come up here” language, is only speaking to John, not a large group of people as we see at the sixth seal.

Of the saints caught up in the First-Trump Rapture, Rev 5:9 says, "they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION".

At the Last-Trump Rapture, the saved Tribulation saints are too many to count.

After telling us about the 144,000 Israelites, Rev 7:9,14 says, "I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...14 These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The first Rapture was for the Philadelphians, for whom the Lord had no words of condemnation. Therefore, they were wearing white robes. The Laodiceans were not wearing white robes at the time, so they got left behind. They wash their robes and are caught up in the second Rapture. No believer will be left behind the second time.

> > Why would those under the altar in heaven ask Jesus at the 5th seal, when he was going to avenge their murders, if the 7 yr. tribulation had already started? Wouldn't they know like everyone else that there is just 7 short years left?

They ask because part of the Tribulation has already run its course.

> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent? Yes I believe it is.

No. The First-Trump Rapture precedes the breaking of the first seal. The Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints precedes the breaking of the 7th seal.

> > Also this group of people seen in heaven at the sixth seal has “come out of” the great tribulation, not “come through” as some have incorrectly quoted. Even the original Greek says they have come out of it, not through it.

If they come out of the Tribulation, they have been in the Tribulation.

> > The only question then becomes which portion did they come out of, and we see clearly that they have come out at the beginning, because earlier in the beginning of the seal, the people of earth proclaim God’s first day of wrath is here. So then God’s wrath begins at the 6th seal, not beforehand.

The great and terrible Day of God's Wrath has arrived when the 6th seal is broken just before the Tribulation saints are caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture. God's wrath begins in Rev 8 at the breaking of the 7th seal.

Rev 8:1 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was SILENCE IN HEAVEN about the space of half an hour.

Both Heaven and Earth are silent while Christ is seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the EARTH keep silence before him."

Rev 8:2 says, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The 7 trumpets come out of the 7th seal. The 7 vials come out of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (future tense, the Second Advent will be 7 months in the future); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The two stone tablets seem to have represented the two asteroid pieces that will impact Earth that day. Remember when Moses brought the tablets down the first time, he threw them down and smashed them? That pictured the asteroid pieces hitting Earth.

One rock as big as a mountain will hit the Mediterranean Sea. Satan's home, Wormwood, will obliterate Babylon near the Euphrates.

Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (named Wormwood)? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."


Agape,
Marilyn Agee
mjagee@verizon.net
http://prophecycorner.theforeverfamily.com


_____________________________________________________________________________________
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

Mike, I must admit today YHWH answered my curiosity about 1948 and 1967/1969, because the whole morning I watched in youtube: the miracles of Israel, 1948 and 1967 war even 1973 war and some other events including the liberation of hostages under Uganda'cruel regime Idie Amin. It was amazing story, how miracles after miracles experienced in the modern time.
So I conclude YES 1948 and 1967/1969 were two important events in Biblical prophecy therefore it follows that 1 generation prophecy would hold also. We will going to see about it, we still have till end 2011 to think about it. I myself think it would be June 2011 as a tipping point in time. In a few days from now we will see what happen in the Middle East on May 14 2011. Something should be discovered soon ....

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

Yes Gimel,

We will see soon.

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/craigo511-2.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Craig Opal (11 May 2011)
"To Marilyn ie: "6th Seal Rapture""


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To, Marilyn, God Bless you for your passion on this, anyone can see we both have the similar zeal on end times prophecy.


You said: "I can't see how we could possibly be living in between the 5th and 6th seals now. At this point in time, no seals have been broken. Jesus hasn't even been given the 7-sealed Title Deed of the Earth".


We either have the evidences of the first five seals going on, or we don't. There is no gray area on this. Since the evidences are going on and have been for some time, it would be impossible to identify them in the future as "now being broken."


It does not take theologians only, to see there has been no peace the last 2000 years(red horse& rider), there have been famines & inflation (black horse & rider), 25% of the earths population have been killed by war, famine, disease and wild animal attacks(pale horse and riders) and still are now dying and being killed by these methods, and lastly the 5th seal started when Martyrdom started with the apostles.


You said: "Rev 17:14 takes place right after the Rapture has taken place. Of Jesus, it says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL." They are the Philadelphian saints".


I disagree slightly. Revelation 7:14 is evidence of an earlier rapture event at the beginning of the 6th seal. The sixth seal spans Revelation 6:12 through the entire chapter of 7. It is a massive event which starts with the Rapture event either simultaneously, or just seconds before the seal is broken, because no one sign will signal this event, instead the many that are already going on now will.


You are correct the Philadelphian saints will be Raptured, but they are not the only ones. The Smyrnan saints who are many, will also be raptured along with many other faithful followers of Christ scattered all around the world in many churches.


"Mt 22:14 says, "many are called, but few are chosen." The faithful Philadelphians are chosen".
All faithful followers will be Raptured, not just Philadelphians.
"At the time of this First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17, which is before the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54, Rev 17:12 says, "And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have NOT YET received a kingdom".


I don't believe there are two separate Raptures, although your thoughts are interesting. I believe the Rapture described in many passages and more are all fulfilled at one Rapture at the sixth seal. "The last trumpet" Rapture is the same as the 1 Cor 15:52 Rapture. The Last trumpet, is simply the first and last trumpet of it's kind. It is one of a kind and unique and is the last trumpet that will be blown before the tribulation begins, however even this "last trumpet" is not the last trumpet blown in the bible. There is also one blown at the second coming(Zech 9:14) and one blown after the battle of Armageddon is fought Is 27:12-13.


If there was a Rapture before the one described in Rev. 6:12-17 & 7:14, then the one in these passages could not come as a surprise, as it must.


"At the present time, Earth has been divided into 10 regions, but the ten kings that will rule over these regions have not yet been elected. We are now approaching the time of the first Rapture. After we are gone, the 10 kings will be elected".


I have no problem with this statement, sounds good to me.


"The First-Trump Rapture takes place in Rev 4:1. Heaven's door opens and the miraculous Trump of God says, "Come up hither."


Again he is clearly only speaking to John here, not an entire group of people. We can't add things that are not there.


"No trumpet sounded by an angel starting in chapter 8 says, "Come up hither. Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour (while the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ). 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." Those angels have not received their trumpets yet when both the First-Trump Rapture and the Last-Trump Rapture take place".


The Rapture trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16, which is blown by Jesus himself (not any angel), is not just a trumpet blast or just a command, but both and more. 16. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".


Jesus is doing all three things at once here, the only thing the angels will be doing, is collecting the elect Matt 24:31. How can Jesus do all three things at once? Revelation 1:10 and 4:1 tell us how, because he uses a voice that "sounds like a trumpet."


"In Rev 4:4, we see John and 23 other elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles) sitting on thrones in Heaven. When John gets his resurrection body and is caught up to Heaven, we will be caught up to Heaven with him".


There are more than 12 patriarchs, which is one of the problems with trying to identify who the 24 are.

"We know that the 12 patriarchs are elders from Num 10:1-4. It says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver (because there are two Raptures); of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY (Heb 12:23), and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR (symbol of a Rapture) of the tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the PRINCES, which are heads of the thousands of ISRAEL, shall GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."
Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".


I think it is a stretch comparing this to the Rapture. We will not assemble ourselves at the Rapture, Jesus and the angels will.


"Peter is one of the elders.
1Pe 5:1 says, "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed."
In Rev 5:9, all the First-Trump-Rapture saints out of all nations are seen in Heaven singing the "new song."
Having been caught up with John and the other 23 elders that are part of the Body of Christ in 4:1, these saints are in Heaven in time to witness Jesus being given the seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth. The first seal is not broken until 6:1, after the Rapture in 4:1 and after Christ receives the 7-sealed book in 5:7".


These are saints that have been in heaven all along such as Moses, Elijah,Enoch, etc. etc. Just because they don't have resurrection bodies yet, does not mean they do not have heavenly bodies of some sort.


"Since the First-Trump Rapture has not yet taken place, the elders are not crowned or enthroned, and Jesus has not yet been given the seven-sealed book. Therefore, none of its 7 seals have been broken".


We have no idea when these elders received their crowns, but it appears they already had them in 4:10, so they more then likely already had them beforehand. Jesus also already has his many crowns already.

> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent?


"No. It is the Last-Trump Rapture. It comes on the Day of God's Wrath just before the two asteroids of Rev 8:8-11 impact Earth".


Just before? The 6th seal is broken at least 3- 1/2 years before Rev. 8:8-11 occurs. You are inferring here that Gods wrath begins sometime in the middle of the tribulation period? Not so. The devastation of the 6th seal begins God's wrath(because the people of the seal proclaim it), and will be so horrible it will take years for the earth to dig out of the rubble and fires. This is why the first 3- 1/2 years is considered to be silence in heaven, because God in his mercy, will give some time to semi-recover from it.


> > Yes I believe it is. In our pre-trib zeal, lets not be so eager to jam a Rapture event into scripture where it does not belong or is described. Revelation Chapter 4’s “come up here” language, is only speaking to John, not a large group of people as we see at the sixth seal.


"Of the saints caught up in the First-Trump Rapture, Rev 5:9 says, "they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION".


There are saints there already that sing all sorts of new songs, this passage does not prove a Rapture. These saints here have obviously been there not only when John saw them 2000 years ago, but now as well and everyone who has died in the Lord before then and since is already praising God is heaven, because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and we know we are encompassed about by many witnesses in heaven now".

"At the Last-Trump Rapture, the saved Tribulation saints are too many to count".


Yes, so this means this "first group" as you have called them, have a finite number. Since he has no problem telling us about the 144,000 Jews, why not number this smaller crowd as you say?


"The first Rapture was for the Philadelphians, for whom the Lord had no words of condemnation. Therefore, they were wearing white robes. The Laodiceans were not wearing white robes at the time, so they got left behind. They wash their robes and are caught up in the second Rapture. No believer will be left behind the second time."


He also had no condemnation for the Smyrnans. Why do you leave them out? There are also other faithful followers in every other church that will go. The Laodeciens are not the only ones who will be left behind, so will many others in other types of churches who are practicing unrepentant sin.


> > Why would those under the altar in heaven ask Jesus at the 5th seal, when he was going to avenge their murders, if the 7 yr. tribulation had already started? Wouldn't they know like everyone else that there is just 7 short years left?


"They ask because part of the Tribulation has already run its course".


This does not answer my question, rather you just made my point even stronger. If part of the tribulation had run it's course, then they would know the answer to this question themselves. It is a question they would have never asked if any part of the tribulation period had already begun.


> > Is the 6th seal Rapture Imminent? Yes I believe it is.


"No. The First-Trump Rapture precedes the breaking of the first seal. The Last-Trump Rapture of the Tribulation saints precedes the breaking of the 7th seal."


This is incorrect in many aspects. These are not "tribulation saints". Those are clearly seen later on being beheaded in chapter 14 of Revelation and is a separate group. This is clearly a group who have come out before God's wrath begins. His wrath does not begin 3 -1/2 years into the last great tribulation, but at the beginning of the 6th seal.


There is no "first trumpet" Rapture spoken of anywhere in scripture, only a last trumpet Rapture. First trumpet Rapture sound like a man made term to me, but if you can show me a scripture I would love to reconsider.
> > Also this group of people seen in heaven at the sixth seal has “come out of” the great tribulation, not “come through” as some have incorrectly quoted. Even the original Greek says they have come out of it, not through it.


"If they come out of the Tribulation, they have been in the Tribulation".


We are already living in tribulation and have been for some time. Jesus told us we would have tribulation. The only difference between now and the day after the Rapture is degree of destruction.
Ask anyone who has lived through anyone of the many disasters the past ten years, or the thousands of torchered and Martyred saints, if they believe they are living in tribulation now they would answer unanimously and resoundingly YES.


> > The only question then becomes which portion did they come out of, and we see clearly that they have come out at the beginning, because earlier in the beginning of the seal, the people of earth proclaim God’s first day of wrath is here. So then God’s wrath begins at the 6th seal, not beforehand.


"The great and terrible Day of God's Wrath has arrived when the 6th seal is broken just before the Tribulation saints are caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture. God's wrath begins in Rev 8 at the breaking of the 7th seal"


God's wrath begins when scripture says it does, not when we say. Rev. 6-16-17, is very clear on when it begins: 16."And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We can't ignore plain scripture, to add or take away from what is already clear. God's wrath does not begin at the 7th seal, because scripture and the people at the 6th seal, have already proclaimed it's coming.


We can clearly see in Rev. 6:16-17, is where God's wrath begins, and Revelation 16, it is finished.
God Bless You,


Craig Opal


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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic

Steven

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

color=red]For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes[/color]

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/billg512.htm

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bill Griese (12 May 2011)
"To Craig Opal: The Sixth Seal is not imminent because Matthew Chapter 24 places it after the Abomination of Desolation!"


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The Sixth Seal is not imminent because Matthew Chapter 24 places it after the Abomination of Desolation!

Matt 24:14-22 (KJV) 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.'

The Lord Jesus Christ puts the 'gathering together of the elect' after the 'tribulation of those days' and immediately following signs in the sky of the Sixth Seal.

Matt 24:29-31 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days (cut short v.22) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.'

The Prophet Joel tells us that there will be signs in the sky preceding the Day of the Lord's Wrath.
Joel 2:31 'The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible Day of the LORD (Wrath) come.'

The Apostle John tells us that after the opening of the Sixth Seal is when these signs in the sky occur and then the Wrath of God begins after the opening of the Seventh Seal.
Rev 6:12-17 'And I beheld when he had opened the Sixth Seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?'

Rev 7:9-10 'After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.'
Rev 7:13-14 'And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'

The Wrath of God is the 'Day of Vengeance' and lasts about one year:

Isaiah 34:8 “For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." A "day of the Lord's vengeance” refers to the wrath of God; and “a year of recompences” indicates that this period will last for about one year, the seventh 'day' of the 70th Week (The seven year 70th week has seven 'days' of one year each).

Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed has come”. The “day of vengeance” is linked here to “the year of my redeemed". During this year, God will take vengeance on unbelievers, but all believers will be raptured beforehand at the Pre-wrath Rapture, which follows the opening of the Sixth Seal. This tells us when the Sixth Seal is opened. (The first day of the seventh year in the current Jewish cycle now in use by Israel is Rosh Hashanah 2014).

The Lord Jesus Christ also linked Noah's Flood, which lasted for about one year, and was the wrath of God in it's time, to the end time events immediately preceding the Second Coming, further illustrating that the wrath of God lasts for about one year.

Matt 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The Pre-wrath Rapture occurs on day one of the year long Second Coming following the opening of the Sixth Seal. At this 'gathering together of the elect', the dead in Christ are raised first, then all living believers are caught up together with them in the clouds to be with the Lord. The Wrath of God then starts at the opening of the Seventh Seal on the very same day after the silence in heaven for half-an-hour, and includes all the Trumpet judgments which follow and which last for about one year. The Lord Jesus Christ descends to earth at the Seventh Trumpet, 1260 days from the midpoint per Daniel chapter 12. The Seven Bowl/Vial judgments follow the Seventh Trumpet and occur during 30 days that follow the actual touching down on the earth part of the Lord's Second Coming. Armageddon then occurs on the 30th day, 1290 days from the midpoint. The Millennium then begins 1335 days from the midpoint.

I believe the Pre-wrath Rapture is the Main Rapture event, corresponding to the 'gathering together of the elect', but this is preceded by an earlier partial Rapture event which I call the "Open Door" occurring near the midpoint of the 70th week. The letters that the Lord Jesus Christ gives to the Seven Churches of Revelation chapters 2 & 3 outlines who will be going thru the "Open Door" and who will be left behind to face the persecution of the Satanically indwelt Antichrist during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the reign of Antichrist, and is cut short by the events that begin at the Sixth Seal. Philadelphia is promised that they will escape the persecution of Antichrist. Smyrna is told that they will suffer persecution 'ten days'. The others are told in no uncertain terms that they will be left behind to suffer the persecution unless they repent. Unfortunately, Christ's warnings are being effectively negated by the widely disseminated modern error that all born-again believers are Philadelphians. Many American Christians especially, who fit the description of Laodicea, take for granted that they are going to be raptured to heaven on beds of ease before Antichrist is revealed. Talk about telling people what they want to hear! They need to be told to Repent, Watch and Pray as the Lord Himself instructed in order to be found worthy to escape the persecution of Antichrist. Fortunately, all born-again believers are exempt from the wrath of God, which begins following the Sixth Seal, so this does necessitate more than one rapture event. The 'Open Door' for Philadelphia and Smyrna, and Pre-Wrath for the rest. There are three divisions to the 70th week. First, the Birth Pangs or Beginning of Sorrows, which as a proponent of the 2008-2015 Timeline, I believe we are in now. Second, the Great Tribulation, which will begin at the midpoint (I believe on April 11, 2012) with the Abomination of Desolation. Third, the Great Tribulation of Antichrist is 'cut short' per Matt 24:22 by the Lord Jesus Christ, who will immediately after the Sixth Seal, appear in the sky, gather the elect, then pour out His Wrath for the remaining number of days prophesied in Daniel chapter 12. (I believe ending in the fall of 2015).

Luke 21:36 'Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.'

YBIC,

Bill Griese


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Re: In View of the End:This PreWrath Study is a description of the end of time as prophesied in the

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes


http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2011/billg514.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bill Griese (14 May 2011)
"To Craig Opal"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Craig,

You seem very nice and I'm sorry I must disagree with your premise so strongly. The Lord Jesus Christ was not "skipping around" in either Matthew 24 or Luke 21, if that means going back and forth so an order can't be determined. This was one discourse He gave that is retold by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In Matt 24:4-7, Mark 13:5-8 and Luke 21:8-11 The Lord describes the First Three Seals. Notice He says "For many will come in my name..." which I believe indicates these things have happened over and over again throughout history as many Antichrist types (i.e. Adolf Hitler) have arisen through the years as a warning of what is to come, with only the final occurrence actually being the First Three Seals of Revelation occurring inside the 70th week. Matt 24:8 indicates they're in the first half. Matt 24:9 NKJV says "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake." Indicating Antichrist's attack on Christians following the Abomination of Desolation. Matt 24:15 says "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..." "Therefore" is referring back to what was introduced in verse 9 with the word "Then" and links the "abomination of desolation" in verse 15 to "tribulation and kill you" in verse 9 when the Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week. Therefore, Matthew is not written only to the Jews! Saying Matthew is written only to the Jews, and then ignoring what it says is what many do to get around Matt 24:29-31 where the Lord clearly puts the Sixth Seal signs and the "gathering together of the elect" after the "tribulation of those days." Fortunately, Mark 13:24-27 is a parallel passage that confirms Matt 24:29-31.

Matt 24:29-31 NKJV "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 NKJV "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."

Now in Luke 21:12-24 there's a clear parenthesis in the text, that starts with "But before all these things..." where He then goes into events that occur from that time until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. In Luke 21:25-26 He moves to the end of the age and describes the signs of the Sixth Seal, and in verse 27 He says "Then..." indicating an order of events and goes onto describe His Second Coming in the sky, and adds in verse 28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, your redemption draws near." Which I believe we agree indicates a Rapture event. Now, if I understand your position correctly, you are saying that the First thru Fifth Seals have already been fulfilled in the distant past, and that this Rapture event after the Sixth Seal is at the beginning of the seven year 70th week, and not at the Second Coming. While I would contend, the Sixth Seal marks the beginning of the Second Coming in the sky, starting at the beginning of the seventh year, and lasting for about one year while the Wrath of God occurs. After the completion of the Daniel 12:7 prophecy of time, times and half-a-time from the Abomination of Desolation would come the actual touchdown of Christ on the earth. I'll re-post the verses I quoted in my previous post that made the case very strongly that the Wrath of God lasts for about one year, which therefore pinpoints the timing of the beginning of the Second Coming and the Pre-wrath Rapture, which I believe is the Main Rapture event where the dead in Christ are raised first and all living believers are caught up together with them in the clouds to be with the Lord. This is called "the gathering together of the elect" in scripture. (As stated before, I do believe in a prior partial Rapture event near the midpoint, which I refer to as the "Open Door").

The Wrath of God is the 'Day of Vengeance' and lasts about one year:

Isaiah 34:8 “For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." A "day of the Lord's vengeance” refers to the wrath of God; and “a year of recompences” indicates that this period will last for about one year, the seventh 'day' of the 70th Week (The seven year 70th week has seven 'days' of one year each).

Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed has come”. The “day of vengeance” is linked here to “the year of my redeemed". During this year, God will take vengeance on unbelievers, but all believers will be raptured beforehand at the Pre-wrath Rapture, which follows the opening of the Sixth Seal. This tells us when the Sixth Seal is opened. (The first day of the seventh year in the current Jewish cycle now in use by Israel is Rosh Hashanah 2014).

The Lord Jesus Christ also linked Noah's Flood, which lasted for about one year, and was the wrath of God in it's time, to the end time events immediately preceding the Second Coming, further illustrating that the wrath of God lasts for about one year.

Matt 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

YBIC,

Bill Griese