For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

Hello Jovial,

It is I who had posted your other articles because they carried truth and integrity, which I am sure, did not sit well with this person. Thank you for your sound advice regarding what is the proper thing to do. If he has differences, fine, all we ask if that he deal with them in an "honest" way without the name calling.

One of these, he referred to in a very unwarranted way was Joe Ortiz, an honorable man, whom spent 20 years doing his own research in his two books, "End Times Passover" and "Why Christians Will Suffer 'Great Tribulation'" which we feature on our Website, http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com/

The same terms "A Jesuit Coadjutor or Jesuit sympathizer"
were used against Joe Ortiz and me, of which he knows that Joe Ortiz and I were former Catholics. If ever there is someone that yearns for family and friends to come out of the false teachings of the Vatican and come to the Lord Jesus Christ, it is a former Catholic.

I had written a personal letter to Bob on our website because I know he visits here and said that he owed this old faithful man of God an apology. Apparently it didn't register because the slandering has not stopped.

I thank you for your character and honest work and for this paragraph which deals with us, which I included right below here.

Sincerely,
Gerlinda

At the same time he is attacking me he is attacking the "Pre-Wrath-Rapture-Babble" site, whatever that is. I have not seen that site or posted to it, but Pastor Bob seems to suggest someone has re-posted some of what I have said on there. I don't know why he is airing his beef about that site on this one. If he has a problem with those people he should talk to them, not bad-mouth those people behind their back.



Jovial (21 Sep 2014)
"Response To Pastor Bob"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2014/jovial921-2.htm

Pastor Bob decided to launch an ad hominum attack on me accusing me of being a "liberal", something I mentioned was one of the tactics common in the KJV Only cult at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2014/jovial913-3.htm in which I mentioned that this is one of their attempts to bully people into political correctness. Of course, Pastor Bob is new to this site and I have been posting here for 15-20 years, so a lot of the long timers here definitely know my theology well and know I am not a "liberal" and probably got a laugh out of it, especially since on the same day I post a very conservative view on abortion, and have, over the years, been one of the staunchest supporters of defending the accuracy of Scriptures.

He also said, "Jovial is one or more of the following below:

1. A SDA cult member
2. A present or former seminary student
3. A Roman Catholic or Catholic sympathizer
4. A Jesuit Coadjutor or Jesuit sympathizer"

Again, many of our long termers already know my theology and know it does not align with this. I have never attended a single SDA server, nor have I taken a single seminary class - not that such a thing would be a bad thing. But I haven't. And since I posted a few objections to Rome's doctrines of praying to saints and pergatory at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2014/jovial824-2.htm , I certainly can't be a sympathiser to Rome or the Jesuits, and that post was recent enough he really has no excuse for the accusation.

Also, if Pastor Bob can't tell if I'm SDA or Catholic is kind of bad. Aren't those theologies easy to tell apart? There is a serious lack of discernment going on to not be able to tell.

About the only thing those denominations have in common is that Pastor Bob has attacked both denominations unfairly, and I spoke up in defense of my Christian brothers. He accused Ellen White of promoting bestiality without evidence and called Catholic School "abusive". And people who go around causing division in the body of Messiah by launching personal attacks against the hand or foot of the body need to be called out for their bad behavior. I have two Methodist cousins who went to Catholic Parochial School and loved it.

Pastor Bob also called me a "sophist" who "debates adroitly but reasons superficially." If that is the case, he'd have an easy time responding to the SUBSTANCE of what I said and picking it apart. But instead of responding to what I said, he ignores the substance of what I said and attacks me personally instead. So obviously, the false label doesn't fit. But again, name calling is common in the KJV Only cult tactic. How people debate doctrine shows how they reason it in their mind. People often do resort to name calling when their whole reason for accepting a doctrine was to fit in. For example, if you want to be a pastor in a Baptist Church or a Church of Christ, you are likely to get thrown out if you don't accept KJV Onlyism. So many pastors in that origanization accept KJV Onlyism in order to fit in and get a paycheck, and not because they believe it. So what do they do when they argue in favor of it - well - they were financially bullied into accepting the doctrine, so often they verbally bully those who oppose it. But if someone accepts a doctrine on sound reason, they will have sound reason to promote it. Debating by ad moninum attacks is a tactic that a is void of logical reason.

At the same time he is attacking me he is attacking the "Pre-Wrath-Rapture-Babble" site, whatever that is. I have not seen that site or posted to it, but Pastor Bob seems to suggest someone has re-posted some of what I have said on there. I don't know why he is airing his beef about that site on this one. If he has a problem with those people he should talk to them, not bad-mouth those people behind their back.

Now I tried to be nice about it the first time I raised this issue. But Pastor Bob has continued to plagarize other articles from the web without attributing where he got the information from.

Much of the content to his post at http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike.htm
Much of the content to his post at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2014/pastorbob97-5.htm can be found at http://allthechildrenoflight.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/the-black-pope-the-jesuits-the-society-of-jesus/

His comparison of Israel vs The church at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2014/pastorbob824-3.htm can be found at http://gracebiblestudies.org/Resources/Web/www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/Israel_Church.htm , but Pastor Bob did not attribute a source text to it, presenting the false appearance that his wrote it himself.

His comparison of "The Rapture vs The Second Coming", which I responded to at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2014/jovial831-2.htm , is credited as as having been at least partly written by a man named "David Stewart" and is posted at http://www.jesusisprecious.org/prophecy/pretrib_rapture.htm

This is not cool. Nor is it a one time thing. Perhaps someone could cut and past something and forget to attribute the source once. But this is a repeated pattern.

Now the reason I checked on this is because I felt the leading from God to do so and recognized quickly that this is in line with the lack of in-depth analysis that comes with most people in the KJV Only cult. If there is one thing I have learned about KJV Onlyists over the years is that they don't think indepthly and don't read Primary source materials. They read an English translation of the Bible instead of the Bible, which is not an English text. They read books about history instead of reading historical documents. They read books about Josephus instead of reading Josephus. They read books about Textual Criticism of ancient manuscripts instead of reading ancient manuscripts. Typically, they quote a lot of "experts" (again, something that stems from not reading primary source materials), but rather than quoting experts, Pastor Bob has chosen to cut-and-paste without crediting, which is worse than quoting an "expert".

Now there is nothing wrong with quoting a great article or passing it on, but give the source - don't give people the impression you wrote it yourself if you did not. There is nothing wrong with reading secodary opinions, but you have to be ready to back it up with evidence from primary source materials too, not quote a secondary source.

Shalom,
Joe
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2014/jovial921-2.htm

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