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JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)

 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thess. 4:16-17 (KJV)

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  9 For God/JESUS hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by JESUS

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Acts 17:10-12

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
KJV

Luke 21:25-28

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

 

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John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things
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Ps 122:6

Psa. 122:6   Pray  shalom Jerusalem:3389/3384 (to flow as waters):  prosper love. 7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces. 8 For my brethren and companions’ sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee. 9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.


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Re: Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

We are a people who love myths, traditions, Easter eggs and Santa Claus. This is not great preparation for understanding and preparing for of great "Tribulation" or an "End-times Passover." People need to read Joe Ortiz' books- NOW!

Matthew 24:19-25

Jesus is telling His disciples that one of the biggest horrors of that period will be great signs and miracles by false prophets and many False Christ who will attempt to deceive the chosen ones of God. Many of these signs and miracles will be especially designed to fool even Christians into believing that Jesus has returned; however, the spirit-filled believers will be able to see through the ruse, barely!

Notice the word "Barely"? There is a very good reason for that word to be used. The technology to fool people is so advanced that only someone who is ground in the TRUTHS of God's Word in a solid Biblical manner will be able to sort through the Smoke and Mirrors. For instance, take a look at this Illuminati Playing Card that is describing the what will transpire when "their Christ' shows up.

This role-playing game called the "Illuminati -- New World Order", or "INWO" is proof that the Illuminati plan to produce Antichrist and it was well known long before 1995, when the game was distributed. Too many details are presented by these cards too close to the actual event to be accidental. The game depicts the events of 9/11 quite accurately and it depicts the planned events of bio-terror that are filling our daily news.

While people like us who are aware of the events being orchestrated are called Conspiracy Nuts, it is the Illuminati themselves who have been conspiring to produce their New World Order. Would you believe they even have a card that depicts the Rapture?



Here is a quote from the Cutting Edge:

"Rapture" --
* Occultists are also looking forward to the Rapture, having been alerted by their Guiding Spirits that such an event would occur! Beginning in 1987, 'Guiding Spirits' of key New World Order leaders began to inform these human leaders to start preparing their adherents for a spectacular global event, that would occur just after The New Age Christ [Antichrist] will make his appearance. What was this spectacular event to be? As these 'Guiding Spirits' explained, when The Christ appears, there will be many people throughout the world that could never accept his views or his teachings. These people would prove to be a great obstacle in the way the New Age Christ wanted to move the peoples of the world.

Therefore, the 'Masters of the Logos' had decided, these 'Guiding Spirits' said, to suddenly snap these people into another dimension, soon after The Christ arose. These recalcitrant people would be retrained in spirit, so that, when they reenter the 'Reincarnation Cycle', they will be fully persuaded as to the merits of the New World Order. Of course, when these people get back to earth in reincarnated bodies, the New World Order will have been in full swing for several hundred years, and everyone will know then how wonderful the system of The Christ is!


http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1052.html

What does Jesus say:

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."


Why would there be that kind of a warning given....unless there will be some deception being put upon the masses that will beckon them out into the deserts, which we know is the very area where the first UFO crash took place in 1948. It is also the location of one of the most secret places known... Area 21...that has many, many levels down under the ground where technology from the hand of Satan himself takes place.. Underground cities spread through-out this country as well as others. (secret chambers?)

Because the Christians have been indoctrinated with a pre-7- year tribulation doctrine, they fail to heed the teachings that clearly give the road signs of what must happen before being called up to meet the Lord.

First there must a great Falling Away and The Man of Sin revealed. Remember, These 'Guiding Spirits' said, to suddenly snap these people into another dimension, soon after their Christ arose.

II Thess. 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"


Plus, there must also be the darkening of the Sun and the moon turning blood red before that Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31

These are the things that Jesus said would be experienced by His disciples then, and, Matthew 24, specifically talks about the things His disciples will experience in the future.

Then, the horror of all horrors, universal chaos, including the sun being darkened, the moon‘s. Who were His disciples? They were His ecclesia , who went out into all the world giving testimony and being a witness of Christ. These are the very ones that Jesus Christ confirmed the Covenant made to the Fathers at the beginning.

Why in God's Wonderful Name, would anyone be looking for a Covenant made with many by a False Messiah? Because they have not grasped the fact that the He in Daniel 9:27 is none other than Jesus Christ.

For anyone to say this is speaking to just the Jews, it would be wise for that person to back up and settle in his/her mind who Israel truly is (both Jew & Gentile Believers) because it is these that make up the complete ecclesia/church, the Elect.

Isn't the Church Christ's Elect? Isn't Israel who came to saving faith in Him through the witness of the Disciples, the Elect?

The Orthodox Jews are not part of this group at this time: their time comes when they call upon the name of the Lord just prior to His Return.

Yet despite all of Jesus Warnings, you just know, that if possible, the very Elect will be deceived. I know that most believers are certain that they would not fall for any traps laid for them. REALLY?

They've already fallen into the pagan observing days having been convinced they are, some-how, honoring the very Lord that gave His Life for us. Give serious thought to these pagan holidays and who it is that they honored. Have Nothing to do with them....Nothing.

Do you really believe the Apostles would compromise and accept these. No Way. They gave their very lives to continue to teach what they had been taught and that was to be a witness to all the world, giving testimony of what they had seen and what they had learned from the very Word of God.

There wasn't a Christmas, Easter or Halloween Tradition among them.

Acts. 20:29-30 "For I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them


2 Timothy 4:2-5: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry,"


The cross is not to be viewed solely as a symbol of weight, as if carrying a heavy domestic or financial burden; but it is meant to symbolize exactly what it is, an instrument of death, the same meaning it had for Jesus.

These are the things that Jesus said would be experienced by His disciples then, and, Matthew 24, specifically talks about the things His disciples will experience in the future. Then, the horror of all horrors, universal chaos, including the sun being darkened, the moon turning blood red.

"Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation" by Joe Ortiz featured on this Forum for over 2 years....worthy of reading, I guarantee you will never see things the same again.

LINKS for the Two Books:

The End Times Passover

Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation


gerlinda

Re: Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

The Lord asked Peter, "Who do you say I am?" Luke 9:20. After Peter made the confession of who Christ is and that he loved Him, The Lord goes on to point out that "He" would build His ecclesia upon the Rock (Himself), not Peter nor upon any one location, which in this case, happened to be up at the very location, at the base of Mt. Hermon...Bainis Falls.

That is where the Fallen Angels had descended. It is there, where the huge cave entrance to the large Mount/Rock is located. It, has a "gateway" inside down into the pit of Hell. It was a Pagan/Roman place of worship to the god Pan..

How fitting that Jesus would take Peter to that very location where the Fallen Angels first appeared and which is where they had their conversations with Enoch, the Scribe. Enoch took their petition, begging for forgiveness to the Almighty Father, but were refused. The 200 leaders of these Fallen Angels are chained up to the coming Judgement Day.

So, this whole occasion was a testimony of who Jesus Christ is, The Great I Am, Himself, who had called out His ecclesia right from the get go when He called out Abraham from among the pagans in the Land of Ur. He has been there all the time, through each trial and era that the Calling Out have gone through. And now that God had become man and was soon to offer Himself as the Perfect Sacrifice to redeem them from the pollution at the hands of Satan and the Fallen Angels, He, rightly, took his disciples to the very spot that these Fallen Angels had descended upon... as a witness, not only to the apostles... but to the under-world that it didn't matter how they have set themselves up, He, the Son of God, had come to set men free......for" Many are called but few are Chosen".

The Word "Christian" was first used in Antioch where the pagans used the term for those that followed Christ. It was, in reality, a degradatory term which has stuck.

To imply that the Israel had to become Christian is such a play on word games in order to pull the wool over the eyes of those that call themselves Christian but do not read the scripture readings for themselves and put it together. . ( Aramic Bible in Plain English - Matthew 15:24) "But he answered and said to them, “I am not sent except to the sheep that have strayed from the house of Israel.” The other versions say the same thing.

It is pretty plain that Israel, the Northern Kingdom, which had dispersed into all the world is the Lost Sheep, to whom Christ sent the believing disciples gathered from the Land of Israel; "Go, preach to them and gather them into the fold." is a clear message. The story of the Good Shepherd is a prime example of Him going out to reach the one that is lost and carry him back into the Shepherd's fold. Any Gentile that got attached to Israel became a part of that fold, "Congregation" (ecclesia).

The Gentile Church does not save Israel.....it is through the Lost Sheep of Israel that the Gentile was allowed to become a part of God's Called Out Ones, the ecclesia and became saved. Why is that so hard to believe?

I'll tell you why...the present day church has been brain-washed into believing that "they" are the primary Chosen One when it is the other way around . The Modern Church does not want to believe this truth; they have been convinced and continue to be convinced that salvation only comes through the Gentile Church. To put it into it's proper context would take away their self-imposed importance.

It also destroys the reason for a pre-tribulation rapture for a Gentile Church so God can get on with the business of dealing with the Jews. Now really, God needs a Gentile Church, which isn't even the complete ecclesia, to do this?

Again, I ask the question. Was the Body of Christ the Called Out Ones that He called "The Lost Sheep of Israel" or did He say, "Go out and save the Gentiles? Did I miss something? Is there scripture that implies that the Body of Christ was the Gentiles???


I believe there are many scriptures in Romans and Hebrews that speaks of the Natural Branch and the Grafted In Branch. The Gentiles thought they were the true Branch and the natural Israel thought that the Gentiles were suppose to keep their ways of doing things. Paul instructed them that they were one in the Root, Jesus Christ. The trouble the Church has today is not being able to distinguish who is whom. They are one, the Body of Christ....not the Bride of Christ.

If it needs to come down to a spouse, then it is speaking of the unfaithful wife with whom God had made a marriage contract, whom the 12 Tribes of Israel, as a whole, were unfaithful to their husband and went whoring after other gods. But that is another subject, separate yet connected. Ten of those 12 Tribes are being found and brought into the Sheepfold....along with the Gentiles that attached themselves to the Tribes.

Replacement Theology is the term that is used for any group that tried to take the place of Israel. And the thing that is nuts about this is that most teachers/preachers that use that term don't even understand whom the Bible says is Israel.

The Gentile Church (whoever that is suppose to be) should not be teaching that they need to be removed before Jesus Christ will deal with the "JEWS" because it is not true.

Their problem is that they do not know the difference between Israel (those of the Northern Kingdom, who in large part, accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior) and the Jews, which to this day, still are the Tribes of Judah, Benjamin and the Levites who did not accept Him as their Savior.

They remain divided on the issue of the Messiah. But God, in His Wisdom knew all of this and even let us know this fact when the scriptures tell us that Jesus said He would not return until they called out to Him.

Gentile Church....you do know that Judah (the Jews) are the separate stubborn part of God's Calling, that have still not had their blinders removed and practice their OT religion, don't you? If you do not, then read Romans, Hebrews and go back to Acts and get the complete story. You will find out there was a reason, why they were kept in the dark, you could say. They had their role to play out for the End Time Prophecies to be fulfilled.

The Tribe of Judah, the Southern Kingdom, hold the Royal Scepter, which is jealously wanted by the The Tribe of Dan

Is Judah(Jews) the proper name to call all of Israel? A hundred times NO.

I can attest to how hard this fact is to comprehend because I've been there, done it, believed it so hard as to put up my stubborn wall of defense "that all of Israel is Jewish". Wow! How wrong I was. Thankfully, God gave me enough of a mind-set not to cling to an old teaching just because it's been around for a few hundred years. I didn't learn this over-night...several people were involved in opening my eyes to this revelation. Praise God, for that understanding because now, the other pieces to this End Times Mystery makes perfect sense...it fits.

Only Judah is the tribe that can have that title of Jews applied to it. Abraham was a Hebrew. Isaac was a Hebrew and so was Jacob until his name was changed to Israel .

But only the oldest son Judah is rightfully known as a Jew . Because the world has muddled these terms together, we have a church that does not even know the difference and in it's ignorance accuses others who do know the difference of two issues.

1. They call those that do not agree with them, that all those living in the land, who are not Arabs, must be the Jews.
2. Because you dare to correct them or use the correct terminology, you get branded as being Anti-Semitic.

The day will come when God will reveal to the ecclesia who are of the Tribes of Israel and who are the Gentiles that were grafted in. It will be a surprise to most, I believe.

Because Judah and Benjamin were united in the Southern Kingdom, in the land allotted to them, that is where they remain today, in unbelief of their Messiah The Temple Mount is located in the Benjamin allotment of land.

The Tribe of Benjamin are also known as the fierce left-handed fighters. They held special distinction in the days of old and I am sure they will, repeat their history again in the near future. The name given to them by their father Jacob is "A Ravenous Wolf". " Benjamin shall ravin like a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night, he shall divide the spoil." Gen. 49:27.

You see, it is the Tribe of Dan that will produce the A/C and try to convince those that are looking for another temple, that he is their Messiah. But he must have the blood-line of the Tribe of Judah. When he presents himself within a human body, having the blood of the Tribe of Judah, they will be convinced for a little while but then, the blinders will be lifted and that light-bulb moment will happen for them.

The blood of every person coming to Israel to live is tested; that is for a reason. Apparently, there is much to be said about the blood-line that proves who is qualified and who is not. The Shroud of Turin has been used in this DNA manipulation that will pull the wool over the eyes of the Tribe of Judah, Benjamin & the Levite priesthood who are preparing for future Temple Worship once the temple is built.

The moral of this whole story is: Do not pit=guess God and His plan upon the understanding of a Gentile Church that is willingly to skip town, you could say, because they've been deceived into believing IT is something special. Or, that God would not put this Gentile Church through Great Tribulation.

The Church/ecclesia is not Gentile and is not more special than the Israelites, who were the first Gospel Messengers.

I know, yes, I know, they have been told that the Jews would not accept the message so now they are separate. That is true if they are talking about the True Jews .

But, they are wrong if they are talking about the Israelites . The ecclesia is made up of both Israel and Gentile and will be here through Great Tribulation.

If you don't believe me, turn to Revelation 12:13-17 NKJ

"Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Who is the woman that gave birth to the Male Child : It is not the same one that are called, "The rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The Tribe of Judah gave birth to the DNA lineage of which came Noah, Boaz, King David, Nathan & the Mother of Jesus. This lineage did not include Solomon.

There seems to be two groups of people here, doesn't there? Yet, this seems to be over-looked as referring to just the Jews when it is talking about the ecclesia (both Israel and Gentile) that keep the commandemnts of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There-fore, common sense thrown in with all the scriptures in Hebrews, Romans and Acts, should convince anyone, really wanting to know the truth, that the Ecclesia is here doing what it is suppose to do until their time to share their testimony of Jesus Christ is over.

Then they will be called up to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the Air. Some will be Martyred. Some will die in other ways. Some will be protected for whatever purpose God has for them. But, for sure, they won't be Raptured until the Dead in Christ rise first and then the living will be changed and join the Lord in the Air.

Nothing else even makes sense and God is not a God of Confusion.

Gerlinda

PS To further understand who the twelve tribes of Israel are and to fully understand Replacement Theology that continues to be misunderstood by the
Clergy and the Laity in these Last Days, please read the book by Joe Ortiz called "End Times Passover".

link: End Times Passover

http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3330765498&frmid=8549&msgid=924414&cmd=show

Re: Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

How long is an Hour? I'm not speaking of the hour on the clock, which is 60 minutes.

I'm thinking of this portion in Joe Ortiz book, "Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation"

To the angel in the church of Philadelphia, the Lord acknowledges this congregation as being faithful to the name of Jesus, even though their outward strength has dwindled from the persecutions. These are the called out ones who have endured patiently throughout their existence, keeping the command of the Lord. He tells them that they will not be victimized by the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world for testing. He exhorts them to continue to hold on to what they have (faith in the Lord Jesus Christ) so no one will take their due reward, the crown of life. To those that overcome, the Lord will write on

__________

In that above paragraph, it is clear that these living Saints will not be victimized during that hour of testing coming upon the whole world.

Then in this next scripture, below, we read of the ones that seem to be the ones that will be doing the victimizing/persecution of the Living Saints for the hour that they are given to rein as kings with the Beast.


Revelation 17:12 (KJV) " And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. "

And then there is this reference of how in one hour great wealth has been brought to ruin . Apparently, it is these ten kings under the Beast who have, through their terror upon earth's inhabitants, is now reaping the results of their evil reign.

Revelation 17:18 "In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' "Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off."

How ever long that hour is that is coming upon the earth, it is clear that the Beast and his ten kings are involved. But even more apparent is that the Church of Philadelphia, whom the Lord had set an "Open Door" which no one is able to shut, is still on earth.

Now, what do those that believe the true Saints (their Gentile Church) will be taken out before there even is a 7 years of Tribulation, have to say about that? I don't think there can be any argument that these Saints mentioned are the most qualified, is there?

1. They are given the highest praise of the 7 churches.

2. No one, even the powers of Hell, will be able to close the door of their Salvation, so there is nothing to keep them from being raptured before the hour of Temptation comes upon the world. Yet, there is no rapture or taking out mentioned.

3. They are even promised that these of the Synagogue of Satan, which we now, openly refer to as, the Illuminati, will come to bow before before their feet.

Revelation 1: 7-9 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens: "I know your works. Look, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying--I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you."

Joe tells in his book:

Therefore, the called out ones need be ready and willing to lay aside everything (material possessions, jobs, friends, and even family) and pick up their crosses and follow Him. Paul tells us what it‘s going to be like in those days, which will include a spiritual malaise which (to a great degree) already exists at this precise moment: But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. Notice the last bit of advice??? Have nothing to do with them. But here is what we are to do:

"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season, correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry, (2 Timothy 4:2-5, NIV)

Are you at peace with yourself, knowing that you have done all that you can do to bring others to the Saving Grace of Christ?

Are you carrying the Cross that has been given to you by the Lord? This is not the cross of making your own life better. In fact, it is a cross that, usually does the opposite.

As Joe points out:

As he begins to close his second letter to Timothy, Paul knows that his death is soon at hand; although weary, tired, exhausted, in much pain from years of beatings, floggings, and many other sorrows. Knowing and expecting to be executed soon by his persecutors, he is at peace, knowing the mission Christ gave him of evangelizing the gospel has been completed. He knows his reward will be given to him on that glorious day (not any sooner than) when Christ appears; but, yet he continues to exhort his fellow servants in the Lord about the rewards they will also receive, on that great day, as He promised:

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day – and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing, (2 Timothy 4:6-8, NIV).

The Greek word for poured is spendo, which literally means and is used of one whose blood is poured out in a violent death for the cause of God.


This may be a shock to many but to a few, who have been paying attention to what is the drive behind these End Day events, it is no surprise at all. More surprising is the fact that most Americans just do not give a rip about the Satanic Drive behind those that are swearing to come to your borders to behead you.

Today, there was an article posted on this forum that should be very disturbing to anyone that is the least bit aware, that Rome has, not only invented this group of terrorist, but is determined to use them against Christians and Jews.

Concrete Evidence ! Vatican Wrote Koran !

http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3330765498&frmid=8549&msgid=944018&cmd=show

There will be martyrs among the living Saints who await the Coming of the Lord. There will be those who are set aside, with special protection and power, to do the will of God in His Divine Purpose. There will be others who will probably die from the pestilence coming upon earth and through the catastrophes already greatly increasing upon earth. Only God knows our destiny; He knows what you will do with this information.

Whatever it is that God has for you; the sooner you know that you will not be caught out in a pre-tribulation Rapture, the sooner you will settle that matter it in your heart and mind therefore better able to set yourself about the business of building the Armour of God to withstand the wiles of the Devil. Your only food may well be the Word of God hidden within you.

Sincerely,
Gerlinda

Joe Ortiz book
Link: End Times Passover

http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3330765498&frmid=8549&msgid=924414&cmd=show