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Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)


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Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

There are two posts that I saw today; one, I found much evidence by several well known pastors that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Anti-christ, which was posted in 2011 by Rapturebibleprophecyforum and the other by a lone pastor who ridiculed the fact that this could be so. So, who do you want to trust, all of these who have experienced and taught an opposing view or Pastor Bob, whose letter is included below?

For Fair Use, Education and Discussion Purposes

Outstanding Bible Teachers who taught the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist

http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html
Click on this link to read the WHOLE ARTICLE



Open Forum Position: Pre, Mid, PreWrath, Post Tribulation allows us to discuss and glean from a lot of teachings so that we can continue to 'WATCH' encourage, exhort and edify each other.

NOTE
Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.


Now look at this post by Pastor Bob on Five Doves today.


Pastor Bob (4 Mar 2014)
"Don't write off a Pre-Tribulation Rapture"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Blessings to all:

Did anyone else see the official declarative statement made by another End Times web site concerning there will be NO 7 Year Pre-Tribulation Rapture? On their web site they declared "There Is NO 7 Year Pre Tribulation Rapture"? It's in bright orange letters about 24-point high letters. Could it be that they have heard from on high?? I'm all ears.

They state there is not one verse in the Bible that mentions a 7 Year Pre Tribulation Rapture! Only if it was that easy! That's right not one verse, nada, nix, Guess we better pay closer attention to the prepper's on National Geographic. Not!

Don't fret. These folks are not the Bible scholars they would have you believe. Several things you should be aware of that should help you keep your sanity and steady as we go attitude.

The word 'Rapture' itself is not in the Bible they declare. However, the word 'Harpazo' is which means "to be caught up with dramatic force" like a child being grabbed from rushing traffic before being killed. There are thirteen references to the word 'Harpazo' in the New Testament. It is not always spelled specifically as I note here. This is because in Greek or Hebrew, spelling is determined by five grammatical factors: "Gender, Case, Voice, Mood, and Tense." The basic word is 'Harpazo' and it is in the Greek text of the New Testament. So to say the word 'Rapture' is not in the Bible is a bit disingenuous. Depends on which Bible you are using.

Something that I consider equally or perhaps more important is the point the Bible employs 'Typology' over and over and over to make its point! The modern day church does not make much use of 'Typology' today. God knows how illiterate humans are and so He has used 'Typology' to make, emphasize, and strengthen Thematic lessons for us to learn. Not to bore you, but let me explain the concept or theme of "deliverance" in the Bible. God repeats His lessons over and over until we get the point. He loves us so much that He does not want you to miss his loving word.

Throughout the Bible the theme of "Deliverance" is delivered (not a pun) to us through 'Typology'.
The theme of "Deliverance" is found 194 times according to my decades of study and "Deliverance" always precedes "Judgment'. I have analyzed the Biblical (Hebrew & Greek) text and without question, God has made it clear, if your are ready, you go home before He brings down HIs wrath.

An easy example to learn from is that of Lot in Genesis 19. Instead of me laying it all out for you, take a little time out and dwell on what God said in Genesis 19 about "Deliverance" and "Judgment" through the grammatical device of 'Typology'.

As to those so adamant that there will not be a 7 Year Pre Tribulation Rapture I suggest they be honest, if they can, that they are not the final authority on God's Word. Remember, we see through a dark glass lens. God alone is the final authority since He inspired its writing and preservation. Whether the Rapture is Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath or .....etc, the important point is to make Christ Jesus your Lord and Savior (Deliverer). Chill out on the harping attacks on the Pre-Trib Rapture. Quit using the 'strawman' argument of Darby or Schofield to put down the 7 Year Pre Tribulation Rapture. Just remember, Darby or Schofield were not the first proponents of the Pre-Trib Rapture theme. There were at least a half dozen second and third century AD church fathers and theologians that believed and taught the 7 Year Pre Tribulation Rapture and shared their thoughts in their writings that are extant today. Give us a break.

Tribulation is all around us, at every turn in the world Christians are dying for their faith. But we have yet to see the grand tribulation that the Bible speaks about in terms of billions of deaths. After 52 years in ministry, I'm convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that the Bridegroom is not going to beat the crap out of the bride and then tell her let's go on a honeymoon and consummate this marriage. Is God guilty of spousal abuse? I don't think so. I will stop here but I could go on with an exegesis of the Feast Days of the Lord in Leviticus 23; again where 'Typology' is being used to reveal a pattern that the Bridegroom will take His bride before all hell breaks out.

Keep looking up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pastor Bob
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/mar2014/pastorbob34.htm

I once believed the same as Pastor Bob. learned the difference by reading the Bible for myself and have gained so much additional information on this forum that I consider it a true blessing from above for which I am eternally grateful.

Thank You Steven

Gerlinda

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

Hi Gerlinda,

Here is the portion of the article that can be found on this link:


http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3330765498&frmid=8549&msgid=930372&cmd=show


Below is the article in context to what other more learned pastors believed.


"CONDEMNATION BEFORE INVESTIGATION IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF IGNORANCE" (Some people attribute this to Einstein but no one knows for sure who wrote this )....:)

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THE MORE RECENT CHURCH



Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there never has been a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. ---The pre-trib rapture teaching is a British-American invention which is only about 180 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent). Some of our grandparents could have heard the pre-trib teaching for the very first time. -- It is a brand new teaching compared to the age of Christianity.



Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood,

---and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Wayne Grudem, Robert Gundry, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, John Piper, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more.

-- None of these above-noted Bible scholars who lived before the 1830s (& Edward Irving) even heard of a pre-tribulation rapture.



Currently --despite temporary widespread popular support in the USA during the 1970s through 90s for the Pre-tribulational Rapture position-- we now find that the tables have turned, as Dr. S. Lewis Johnson Jr. said (in about 1985): "posttribulationism is winning the battle against pretribulationism on the academic level." This means that most Evangelical scholars and Bible professors are coming to the post-tribulaional position. - (Dr. Johnson was a professor of New Testament and Greek at Dallas Theological Seminary for 28 years, and for 4 years at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago.)

-- These are not liberals, but solid Evangelical/Fundamental Bible scholars.



-- And furthermore, Kermit Zarley (an understudy of Dr. Johnson, and now an Evangelical Christian author) added in 2006 that among Evangelical Bible-believing scholars the "academic battle is pretty much over with, and posttribulationists have decisively won it."

(Ref: Zarley's website: http://stillherebooks.com/stillhere_explained.html).

-- However, it still remains for many Evangelical pastors and average churchgoers to catch up with the correct (and historic) Biblical teaching in this area.



As two examples of this latter group of academics, please see Chapter 54 and 55 in Dr. Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology --(arguably the best systematic theology written in the 20th century), where he espouses the post-tribulational position.

--And then take note of an article by Dr. John Piper.



---In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the glorious Second Coming (with the rapture) would happen at the end of that time ...just after the tribulation.



---But still, any teaching should stand or fall, not because of its antiquity, or a majority believing it (though the above numbers are weighty), but because it lines up with the truth of the Scriptures.



So, consider the following key New Testament word in this discussion:



---------------------------------------------------------------------



THE "PAROUSIA": CHRIST'S GLORIOUS ARRIVAL TO EARTH



The New Testament was originally written in the ancient Greek language. The New Testament Greek word "Parousia" (pronounced pah-roo-SEE'-ah), when used concerning Christ, is a specialized or "technical term," since it speaks "nearly always of his Messianic advent in glory to judge the world at the end of the age" (Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich, p.635 - my emph.); in fact, 16 of the 17 usages are like this. A "technical" term has a more focused meaning (in the Bible) than the word might usually have in other writings. This word, "Parousia," was used by people in NT times to indicate the coming of a ruler who was just arriving at a city in order to be present with the people there. In English translations of the Bible, Christ's "Parousia" is usually translated as his "coming," but (as a technical term) it emphasizes and focuses on the idea of Christ's "glorious arrival" to earth in order to be physically "present" with people on earth as the divine judge. --Considering the verses which speak of Christ's Parousia, is highly informative on his Second Coming and the rapture.



Please locate the following verses in your own Bible, and note where this important word "Parousia" occurs in them ...usually translated as "coming."



In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen "at his Parousia" (at his glorious "coming" or arrival upon the earth). -- Then in 1 Thes. 4:14-17, where Paul describes the Parousia ("coming") of the Lord ( v.15 ), we read that the Parousia is the time of the saint's resurrection and rapture ( v.16,17 ). - Please write where this word occurs in your Bible, and review the meaning of the word in the context of those verses.

--From both of the above verses, it is very clear that the resurrection and the rapture of the saints (born again believers) is part of the Parousia event, as Christ arrives ("comes") in glory and power on the earth in order to be "present" on earth as the great Judge. That is the significance of the word "Parousia."



Adding to this concept, historically, we read: "When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis..." ( F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, 1970, p.1159 )(my emphasis).



In harmony with this arrival-picture, Paul states in 1Thess.4 that the resurrected and transformed saints will be caught up (raptured) to "meet (apentesis) the Lord in the air" ( v.17 ), in order to escort Christ on the last little portion of his arrival to earth at the Parousia, which is the glorious Second Coming. When some people suggest that Jesus will snatch these people away from the earth and then immediately leave and return to heaven, this does not fit with the arrival-picture portrayed by these two Greek words (parousia & apentesis), and the movement of an arriving dignitary these words portray.



"Parousia" is used in 1 Thess. 3:13 ---and it is because of Christ's catching up of believers into the air at the time of the Parousia ("coming"), followed by their meeting and escorting (apentesis) him as he finishes his arrival to earth, that Paul says the Parousia (coming & arrival) of our Lord Jesus is "with all his holy ones," as he descends to the earth. The saints are "with" him because they have just met (apentesis) him in the air as a result of the resurrection and rapture.



In 2 Thess. 2:8, Paul looks ahead to the end of the Great Tribulation as he mentions the destruction of the Antichrist "whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his Parousia (coming)." ...This verse clearly tells us that the Parousia (which includes the saint's resurrection and rapture) will be the powerful event of splendor and glory which will destroy the Antichrist at the end of the Great Tribulation. Jesus also depicts his Parousia as glorious and powerful: "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the Parousia of the Son of Man" ( Mat. 24:27 ). The Parousia will be gloriously visible to the whole world. It will not be quiet and secret. ---So, it is clear from all of this, that the reign and authority of Antichrist will extend right up to the end of the Great Tribulation, and his life will be ended by Christ's Parousia -- his glorious arrival on earth. --So, we must remember, that the Parousia is Christ's powerful and glorious Second Coming ---during which the rapture of believers will also occur.



One further note: We are told in James 5:7,8 to be patient and to stand firm as we wait "until the Lord's Parousia." James knew things would get tough for Christians before the Parousia, but it will be at the Parousia (Christ's coming and arrival upon the earth as Judge) that our relief (from persecution) will come. ---And so, as a result, John exhorts perseverance among believers who will be alive at the end: "dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his Parousia" ( 1 Jn. 2:28 ).



ANTICIPATING THE DAY OF THE LORD



The "Day of the Lord" in Scripture is that marvelous day to which all true believers should look forward, ...and even work to hasten its coming (2 Pet. 3:11-12). We look forward to it, because the "Day of the Lord" will be the day of our salvation ( 1 Thess. 5:2-9 ) and physical redemption of our bodies, when the Lord Jesus will be "revealed from heaven ...in flaming fire" (2Thess.5:7). ---The Day of the Lord will begin with the descent of the Lord at his Second Coming, and the Rapture (catching up) of all true blievers ( read 2Thess.2:1-8 & 1Thess. 4:15- 5:2 ), and it will extend right on through the 1000-year millennium (Joel 2:32- 3:1 & 3:16-21 ; and Zech.14). It is "the day" believers should look forward to in holy self-control and spiritual alertness ( 1 Thess. 5:2-8 ). ---So, why must we be so spiritually alert up until that "day"? Because we won't yet be glorified, but we'll still be struggling here on earth against our sinful flesh until that Day finally comes. But, we can be confident that the Lord will keep us strong "to the end" ( 1 Cor. 1:8 ), and blameless (in our spiritual "position") until "the Day" arrives, when all spiritual maturity will be completed in us ( Phlp. 1:6,10 ).



So, when will the "Day of the Lord" begin? The major key to pinpointing its start, is to look at the great heavenly portents (signs) that Jesus and Joel spoke of. These heavenly signs are : the darkening of the sun and moon, along with the "falling" of stars, and the "shaking" of other heavenly bodies. Jesus specifically said that these signs would follow "immediately after" the Great Tribulation (read Mat. 24:29), and Joel said that these same heavenly signs would occur just before the Day of the Lord ( see Joel 2:30-31 & 3:14-16 ).



---Placed in order, then, the Great Tribulation must be completed before these heavenly signs appear, and these same signs appear just before the Day of the Lord begins. Thus, the Great Tribulation comes before the Day of the Lord, with the heavenly portents inbetween. And as was demonstrated earlier, the Day of the Lord begins with the glorious Second Coming of Christ, along with the rapture; --and in fact, Jesus quite nicely describes the rapture (a catching up of the saints) as following those heavenly portents after the great tribulation ( Mat.24:30-31 ). Therefore, Christ's Second Coming, along with the rapture, cannot be imminent until these post-tribulational heavenly portents (signs) are occurring. Therefore, Paul says, "you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" ( v.4 ). Why not? ...Because the Scriptures give us the signs to look for just before "the Day" begins.



We also know the Parousia (with rapture) comes as part of the Day of the Lord, because in 2 Thess. 2:1-2 the normal flow of Paul's sentence moves smoothly and naturally from speaking of the Lord's Parousia (coming) and rapture ( "being gathered" ) in verse 1, right on to "the Day of the Lord" in verse 2, without a transition in thought. This shows us that in Paul's mind, the Parousia and the beginning of the Day of the Lord are linked right together as happening at the same time. Clearly, the Day of the Lord is "the" hopeful "day" of all believers' glorification and rapture ( 1 Cor. 15:50-52 ).



[ continued ]





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
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THE LAST TRUMPET



When we consider all the NT passages which speak of a trumpet sounding in relation to the glorious Second Coming of Christ, there is excellent agreement among them, indicating that the same last trumpet is spoken of. In Matthew ch.24, when Jesus speaks of this time, he says that immediately after the Great Tribulation, there will be awesome heavenly portents ( v.29 ), and he will then be "coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds" ( v.30, 31 ). This trumpet heralds the Lord's Parousia ( "coming" in v.27 ), including the rapture (gathering of the elect), and we see that his angels are part of the catching up of the saints.



This is very similar to 1 Thess. 4, where Paul says that at the Parousia ( "coming" in v.15 ), "the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, and with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" (v.16), and then the rapture occurs (v.17). It is easy to note several parallels between this and Matthew 24.



Again, in harmony with the two passages above, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul writes of the time of the believer's resurrection and change to a new, spiritual body: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" ( v.51-52 ). At the time of the believer's resurrection, we again read that there will be a trumpet sounded... but Paul adds here that it is the last trumpet ...which coordinates perfectly with the passages in Revelation, which we will consider next.



As John describes the tribulation period just before the Second Coming, in Revelation 8:6 through 11:15, he writes that seven trumpets will sound. When we read the contents of the seventh (or last) trumpet in Rev. ch.11, we read of loud voices declaring that "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever" ( v.15 ), and the heavenly elders also declare, "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign" ( v.17 ). This celebration of the commencement of Christ's reign on earth, pinpoints Christ's glorious Second Coming as taking place at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in this series of trumpets. This is the last trumpet, just as Paul had said in 1 Corinthians 15. The agreement here is good.



Some may find it confusing that after this seventh trumpet, John further describes tribulational events in Revelation, but there is a very good explanation. --In his book, The Church and the Tribulation, ( Zondervan, (c)1973 ), Robert Gundry notes that in all three series, the Seals ( Rev.6 ), Trumpets ( Rev.8-11 ), and Bowls of Wrath (Rev.16), the seventh item in each series occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. Gundry points out that this arrangement is favored by the "Semitic style of Revelation ...according to which the seals, trumpets, and bowls will find somewhat concurrent fulfillment." Also, the fact that later descriptions "add more detail is a well-recognized feature of narratival style in Semitic literature" ( Gundry, p.75 ).



An illustration of this Semitic literary technique of marking time in related series, might be used to describe our approach to Midnight on New Year's Eve, with three different series, as such:







MONTHS: June July Aug Sept. Oct. Nov. Dec.

DAYS: Sun Mon Tues Wed Thur Fri Sat

HOURS: 6 7 8 9 10 11 12







In the three series above, they run somewhat concurrently, and each one ends with Midnight on New Year's Eve ...with the last seven days contained within December, and the last seven hours contained within the last day.



Note, for example, that we find this same Semitic literary technique in the creation account, where creation is overviewed in Genesis 1:1, and then, the creation process is fully outlined in Genesis 1:2 - 2:2. Finally, in a third outline of creation in Genesis 2:2-25, a different but compatible viewpoint is brought out, which runs concurrently with the previous two, but with a different focus. The three descriptions do not constitute a conflict or contradiction, as some have supposed, but they simply consider varying focuses (and amounts) of detail in describing the same overall process.



So, similarly, in the book of the Revelation, the three different series of the seals, trumpets and bowls would start at different times, run somewhat concurrently and all end together at the Second Coming, approximately thus:









SEALS: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

TRUMPETS: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

BOWLS: 123456 7





(Note: Similar to the New Year's illustration above, the Seals & Trumpets may actually be much more spread out than this shows.

Trumpets might start after the 5th Seal starts. The Bowls might start after the 6th Trumpet starts.

But all three sevens should line up straight, as they occur together at the 2nd Coming, as described above.)




Note some advantages in the above arrangement: The seals, trumpets and bowls increase in frequency and severity, similar to birthpangs ( Mat.24:8 ); The sixth bowl ( Rev.16:12-16 ) is preparatory for the sixth trumpet (Rev.9:13-16); And the sixth seal ( Rev.6:12-14 ) fits in very well with the post-tribulational portents (signs) that Joel and Christ spoke of, which come just before Christ's glorious Second Coming ( Joel 2:30-31 & Mat.24:29-31 ) to set up his kingdom on earth ( Rev. 11:15-18 ). So, the seventh item from each of the three series, all happen together at the time of the Second Coming ...even the seventh seal's "silence in heaven for half an hour" ( Rev.8:1 ) occurs at this time, which is reasonable if the Lord Jesus along with all the heavenly armies have left heaven and gone to earth at the time of the Second Coming.





KEY WORD STUDIES



It is highly informative to focus on three special Greek words that impact the discussion on the rapture and the Second Coming.



The first word, "Epiphany" means "the visible appearance of the Lord Jesus on earth at the end" of the age ( ref: New Int'l. Dict. of N.T. Theology, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.319 ). To the ancients, this word indicated the appearance of God on earth, so that humans see him there. The "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," (by Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, p.304), states that the Greek word "epiphany" means "a visible manifestation of a hidden divinity," and in the literature of the New Testament, this word speaks "only of Christ's appearing on earth." In addition, Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon states that "epiphany" occurs in 1Tim.6:14 ; 2Tim. 4:1,8 ; Titus 2:13 ; and 2Thess. 2:8, in which they all speak "of Jesus' coming in judgment." ---Thus, taken all together, the "epiphany" of Jesus can be nothing other than the glorious and visible Coming of Christ when he ends up among mankind on the earth in judgment ...which is clearly post-tribulational.



Paul exhorts Timothy to "keep this commandment without spot or blame until the appearing (epiphany) of our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Tim.6:14 ). So, Paul is saying to persevere in obedience to Christ faithfully until the big goal is reached: the post-trib epiphany.



In addition, Paul declares that it is the "epiphany" of Christ's "parousia" which destroys the Antichrist ( see 2Thess.2:8 ), therefore, it is the glorious epiphany (appearing) of Christ the God-man on earth which destroys the Antichrist just after the end of the great tribulation. If you will refer back to the Parousia-section above, you will note that the parousia is the time of the Rapture, and here we see clearly that Christ's glorious epiphany on earth is at the very same time.



And then, Paul tells Titus: "we wait for the blessed hope ----the glorious appearing (epiphany) of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" ( Titus 2:13 ). Thus, the "blessed hope" we look to and wait for is not some secret disappearance before the great tribulation (as in a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture), but rather, it is the glorious and visible epiphany of Christ's Coming to be on earth in judgment, at which time the Antichrist is destroyed, ...which is unavoidably post-tribulational.



The second word, "Apocalypse," basically means "unveiling" or "revealing." In the NT it is the disclosure and glorious "revelation of Christ when he appears in the fullness of his power" (ref: New Int'l Dict. of N.T Theology, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.315 ). In addition, Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon ( cited above, & p.92 ) states that when this word "apocalypse" is used to talk about Christ in eschatology (the last days/last things), it speaks of "the parousia," (see "parousia" in the first half of this article). ---Clearly, this word "apocalypse" ("revelation") is the powerful and glorious post-trib Coming of Christ, when he appears and is revealed to the whole world ( Rev.19:11-16 & Mat.24:29-31 ), ...and Paul uses this word when he says, "do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed (apocalypse)" ( 1 Cor.1:7 ). ---So, were the Corinthians and Paul eagerly waiting for a "secret rapture," where all the believers simply disappear? ---No. They were looking and waiting for the powerfully glorious "apocalypse" or appearing of Christ ...which can only be post-tribulational. (& See the section below on "Relief").



Peter also uses this word, "apocalypse" , as he writes: "trials... come so that your faith ...may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed (apocalypse)" ( 1 Pt. 1:7 ). ---When do pre-tribulationists expect this praise and honor to come from the Lord Jesus? At the pre-trib rapture. ...But that's not when Peter says it will come. He says it will come at the apocalypse, when Christ is revealed to the world in the fullness of his power. Peter continues: "set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed (apocalypse)" ( 1 Pt.1:13 ). ---So, your hope is to be riveted on the apocalypse ...which is clearly post-tribulational.



The third word, "PHANEROO," (pronounced "fawn-air-AHH'-oh") means "to reveal, manifest;" ---and according to Colin Brown it is used as a synonym for the above word we studied : "apocalypse" ( DNTT, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.321 ). Arndt & Gingrich (cited, & on p.860 ) write that "phaneroo" indicates Christ's "appearance in the world." The apostle Peter writes: "when the Chief Shepherd appears (phaneroo), you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away" ( 1 Pet.5:4 ). ---And when will this crown of glory be given to believers? While the tribulation is taking place on the earth below? No. Believers will receive their "crown of glory" at the time of the phaneroo-apocalypse, when Christ appears and is revealed in glorious power on the earth, ...which is post-tribulational.



John says, "continue in him, so that when he appears (phaneroo) we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming (parousia)" ( 1 Jn.2:28 ). So, when will we ultimately need the confidence of having faithfully followed Christ?...and when will the Lord "size us up"? It won't be some time during the tribulation, but when he gloriously appears ("phaneroo") at the apocalypse and the post-trib parousia (see parousia section). Finally, John says, "when he appears (phaneroo), we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" ( 1 Jn.3:2 ). And when will this happen, that believers will "become like" Jesus, or in other words, be glorified in resurrected bodies? Will it be just before (or in the middle of) the tribulation? ---No. According to the inerrant word written down by John, it will be at the phaneroo-apocalypse ...which is post-tribulational.



Consider the meaning and useage of the original Greek New Testament words to clarify the Bible's teaching on the rapture.



RELIEF



A very telling scripture in regard to the rapture, is found in 2 Thess. 1:5-10. As Paul writes, he is talking about the earthly suffering and persecution of the Church ( vs.1 ), and he includes himself in this persecuted group ( v.7 ). But Paul then says that God will pay back the persecutors of the Church, and that the Church will be relieved from this suffering and persecution ...and when will this relief happen? "This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed (apocalypse) from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" ( v.7 ). Pre-tribulationists are expecting their relief from the world's persecutions at the time of a secret rapture before the tribulation (which would not yet be Christ's glorious coming). --But Paul expected his relief to come at the glorious revelation or "apocalypse" of Christ (see word study above), which can only be the coming of Christ in great power and judgment, just after the Great Tribulation. This is the exact same picture which our study (above) of the Greek word "Parousia" ( in James 5:7,8 ) gave us. The glorious apocalypse is also described in 1 Pet. 1:7,13, in 1 Cor. 1:7 and in Revelation 19:11-18. It is at this apocalypse that our relief comes, and no sooner. Although the Church will face persecution at the hands of Antichrist, Christians must not let fear keep them from facing the truth, but instead, should let God's love cast out all fear.



[ continued ]






++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic
Steven



Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

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TRIBULATION SAINTS "IN" CHRIST



The fact that there will be many saints (true believers in Jesus) on earth who will face Antichrist during the Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9-14; 13:7,10; 14:12,13; 17:6; 20:4 ) is not disputed by any of the three rapture teachings. --Pre-tribulationists, however, feel that the entire body of Christ ( the "Church" ) will have been raptured just before the beginning of the Tribulation, and that there can be no "Church-saints" on earth during the tribulation, so these "tribulation saints" we speak of in the above verses, would not be part of the body of Christ (the Church). --However, those who teach this pre-trib view may not realize that as they try to propose a group of Jesus-believing, blood-bought, New Testament saints "in" Christ, which are not part of the Church (Christ's body), this brings up very serious problems concerning the doctrines of justification, reconciliation and redemption ...indeed, such a viewpoint puts the biblical doctrine of salvation under attack.



Why does this view undermine the proper view of "salvation"?



The sacrifice of Christ benefits all truly repentant sinners who have sincere faith and trust in Christ, but this benefit is conferred as God automatically baptizes all true believers in the Holy Spirit, which places them "into" the Body of Christ ( 1Cor.12:13 ) --and that "Body" is the Church (Eph.1:22,23), with the result that all believers are "IN Christ" (2Cor.5:17). Being "in Christ" is the place of justification ( Gal.2:17 ), redemption and forgiveness of sins ( Eph.1:7 ). What's more, Paul teaches that a person who is in the body of Christ, has died to the requirements and condemnation of the OT law ( Rom. 7:4,6 ) ---and thus, anyone who is not in the body of Christ remains condemned by the law ( Rom.2:12 ; Gal.3:10-11 ; Jas.2:10 ). There is no other place, than in Christ's body, for those spiritual transactions in the NT. It will only be people "in Christ" (and in his body), who have been crucified with him, who have died and been burried with him, and are made alive with him ( read Rom.6:1-10 ). For anyone to be saved, God places Jews or Gentiles "in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross" ( Eph.2:16 )... and that one body of reconciliation is the Church ( Eph.1:22-23 ). There will never be any other way to justification, reconciliation to God, redemption, resurrection and eternal life, than by being "IN Christ," which is in his body --the Church-- ...and anything else is another way of salvation (and really, another gospel) than is found in the Bible. --It would take some major explaining to tell how a person could be "in Christ" but not in his body (the Church). If the tribulation saints are not in Christ's body, then how are they saved? --Consider especially verses like Romans 12:5, which says, "so in Christ we who are many form one body." Paul says explicitly there that being "in" Christ means being in his "body", and he uses those two ideas as being inseparable. ---Biblical Christianity can never advance any other way of justification and redemption, other than being "IN Christ."



So, the pre-trib notion of a group of "tribulation saints" who are saved and redeemed during the tribulation, but yet are not part of the body of Christ (the Church), is actually a contradiction in terms, which rests on very shabby theology that undermines the biblical doctrine of salvation. ---The true situation during the tribulation will be: there will be Spirit-baptized saints who are "washed ...in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev.7:14), so, they are blood-bought and justified saints; they will be born-again Christians "who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" ( Rev.12:17 ), and who "remain faithful to Jesus" ( Rev.14:12 ).



--And very crucial for this discussion: note those saints who "die IN the Lord" during the Great Tribulation ( see Rev.14:12-13 with 6:9-11 ) ...remembering from our previous discussion, that being "in the Lord," or "in Christ," is precisely the NT description of a believer who is part of the Church, the body of Christ!



Thus, there is no possible way that these tribulation "saints" can not part of the Church. --They must be.



The corporate body of Christ first came into being when believers were first baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost ( Acts 1:5 & 2:1-4 ). Since then, every true believer is automatically placed into the body of Christ by the Baptism in the Holy Spirit ( 1Cor.12:13 ), so that all believers are "in Christ" (and this must --since the Acts 2 day of Pentecost-- include all Old Testament saints, as well as tribulation saints). Redemptive union with Christ, in his body (the Church), has always been God's plan for all believers of all ages. Paul says that Jesus is the Savior of "his body" ( Eph.5:23 ), and it would take some major explaining to show that he is the Savior of anybody else. Anybody who is not part of the body of Christ, therefore, will not be saved. Jew or Gentile, there is no other provision in all of eternity for the salvation of sinners other than by being in the body of Christ. --So, unavoidably, since there are saved people on earth during the tribulation, the body of Christ, the Church, must be present on earth at that time.



Since the "Church" is clearly on earth during the Tribulation, there is no reason to say that the Church is evacuated just before the Tribulation begins.



Obviously, those who "die in the Lord" during the tribulation will be part of Christ's body, the Church, and they too ( like all who are in Christ ) will rise at the first resurrection and be raptured ( 1 Thess.4:16-18 ). Thus, the rapture must follow the tribulation, during which those tribulation saints "die IN the Lord."



SAINTS UNDER GOD'S WRATH?


Some Bible students are deeply concerned over the idea that born-again members of Christ's body ( the Church ) will be present on earth during the tribulation, thinking that these saints would necessarily be subject to God's wrath ...but this is an unnecessary and ill-founded concern. This is because no saint in any place or time will ever be subject to God's wrath ( 1 Thess.5:9 ). In point of fact: Right now, at this very moment today before the tribulation, "God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the... wickedness of men" (Rom.1:18 and 1 Thess.2:16), and this present wrath of God never touches a single saint. This is because --as we have already established-- no saint is ever subject to God's wrath. - As a result, the "tribulation saints" are IN Christ, and justified "by his blood" ( Rev.7:14 ), so it would also be impossible that they would be subject to God's tribulational wrath or any other divine wrath. Jesus died on the cross for every believer of all time-periods, and in doing that, Christ took the full measure of God's wrath against any believer, so no portion of God's wrath can ever touch him. There will be blood-bought saints on earth during the Tribulation ( Rev. 7:14 ), but none of God's wrath will ever touch them.



In contrast, however, God's tribulational (& post-tribulational) wrath will be poured out upon the "earth-dwellers" (Rev.8:13) who are of the earth --but the saints are not "of the earth" but they belong to Christ, and though they will be on the earth during the tribulation, God's wrath will never be poured out on them. The bowls of tribulational wrath (Rev.16) will be poured out particularly on the wicked who take the mark and worship the beast ( Rev.14:9,10; 16:2 ) and who kill the saints, and blaspheme God, and refuse to repent ( Rev.16:8-11 ). This wrath is focused on these people, and does not touch the saints. They will be shielded by God. - This situation is remarkably similar to the plagues of the Exodus that affected the Egyptians but not Israel (though Israel was not yet removed out from among the Egyptians) ...in fact, in Revelation 15, those who are victorious over the Antichrist, will sing "the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb" (Rev.15:3). Then very much like the exodus out of Egypt in Moses' day --at the end of the plagues, and after having been shielded from God's wrath-- the saints will be raptured at the Parousia and will join in with the armies of heaven as the returning Christ comes to judge, as he "treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God" ( Rev.19:11-21 ), and, along with Christ, "the saints will judge the world" ( 1 Cor. 6:2-3 ).



Although tribulation saints will experience very tough times, persecution and death from Antichrist during the tribulation, they will abide under the sufficient grace of God but never his wrath. Rather, they will set their hope on their soon-coming Lord Jesus.



SAINTS TO FACE ANTICHRIST



As we have established, there will be New Testament saints on earth during the Great Tribulation: blood-bought, justified, Holy Spirit-baptized saints IN Christ ...members of his body, the Church. This is unavoidable, since there will people on earth saved by the shed blood of Christ. They will be protected from God's wrath, but in Revelation 13 we see that the Antichrist (beast) will be permitted for 3 1/2 years "to make war against the saints and to conquer them" ( v.5,7 ). The saints will be subject to the murderous persecution of Antichrist, but not God's wrath. Daniel makes the same point, agreeing that the saints will be subject to him for 3 1/2 years ( Dan. 7:21,25 ).



We have already determined that the event which destroys the Antichrist, is the glorious Parousia at Second Coming of Christ, ...therefore the time of Antichrist's great persecution of the Church, is the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation just before that glorious Second Coming. We must remember, however, that even though we know the approximate duration of this persecution under Antichrist, we still will not be able to pinpoint the day or hour of the Lord's Coming ( Mat.24:36 ), because Jesus said that "those days (of the great tribulation) will somehow be "cut short" ( Mat.24:21-22 & Mk.13:19-20 ). So, in some way or another, God won't allow the full 3 1/2 years to run out their course, and we don't know how many days he'll cut off. ( See answer to this in "Rapture FAQs" ).



Though the Antichrist will "conquer" the saints in physical, political, and economic terms, this will not be the whole story. The Church will still faithfully carry the gospel to all nations, and then the end will come ( Mat.24:14 ). And not all Christians will die: Some will live until the Parousia (coming) of the Lord ( 1 Thess.4:15 ). The saints will be the ONLY people on earth guaranteed to resist and not to worship the Antichrist ( Rev.13:8 ), and to resist taking the mark ( Rev.14:9-12 ). The saints are the only ones who will not be deceived by the satanic deceit and powerful delusions of the Antichrist ( 2 Thess.2:9-12 ). Through all the Devil's attacks in the tribulation, believers "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death" ( Rev.12:11 ).



IN SUMMARY



Whereas there is no explicitly clear scriptural evidence which places any component parts of the rapture before the tribulation period, ---there is explicit and direct evidence for a resurrection of believers at the start of the millennium ( Rev.20:4 ), and explicit statements of the post-tribulaional coming of Christ "on the clouds" with glory, and with a trumpet call, and with a "gathering" up of the elect (Christians) by angels (Mat.24:29-31). Evidence for a supposed pre-tribulational rapture is not clear and direct like this, but is only inferred by implications of different sorts. -- (Still I love all my pre-trib friends!)



Although Antichrist will persecute the Church during the Great Tribulation (the 3 1/2 years just before the glorious Second Coming of Christ), still, all the saints will overcome him spiritually by remaining faithful to Christ, and some saints will live through to Christ's Parousia (arrival to earth). When the Parousia happens, Christ appears in power, glory and wrathful judgment, the dead in Christ are raised, all Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the sky (raptured), the Antichrist is overthrown by the bright appearance of the "Parousia," and Christ lands on earth with all his saints, to begin his Millennial kingdom. ---This viewpoint is classic Christian theology. It has been so held for almost 20 centuries, since the apostles and early Church fathers, and thus is called "historic" Pre-millennialism. May the Lord guide and bless his saints to glorify him in the momentous days apparently soon to be on us.



Come quickly, Lord Jesus!





* * *

For further reading:

The best book I've seen on the time of the Rapture, is : "The Church and the Tribulation" by Robert F. Gundry, Zondervan, 1973.

However, since the above book is out of print, you may need to read : "First the Antichrist," by Robert Gundry, Baker Books, 1997.





* * *





This is "Ruffy," the pre-trib puppy, looking for scriptural evidence for the pre-trib rapture.

"How's it going, Ruffy?" - - - "Rough, ...Rough," he says.



(... Just kidding! ... )









++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven


Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

Hi everyone,

I need to witness to this! My spirit feels this to be the TRUTH! Praise God for all his saints and Jesus Christ our Lord! And thanks to you brother Steven for being you!

YBIC

Michael

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

Almost forgot,

Sorry I got caught up in this long thread and did not mention you Gerlinda!

I have to say this, I love you Sister! You reflect my sentiments completely!

This sight is a true blessing to all who seek TRUTH!!! The truest representation

of the body of Christ as I have ever found, and I thank God for it to be able to

share my thoughts and gain love from fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!

It is amazing how the Lord finds ways to feed his flock, I am truly grateful, as

I am one of those people that find it hard to socialize in modern style

(church) gatherings. LOVE is a hard thing for a person like me to open up to!

As it makes us vulnerable to the deepest of pain, which has scar and harden

ones heart! As it did me. I am a loner, but very much want to LOVE others

as myself, and the Lord has blessed me with all of you, to open up to my

potential to love others. Thank you ALL, and God Bless each and every person

that needs his Love as I have!


YBIC

Michael

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

Thank You Michael for your kind words.

I, also, appreciate this site and it's variety. And hey! Michael, we can post anytime we want, all day long if we so choose.

So, you keep posting, eh?

Gerlinda

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

Oh, Michael,

I forgot to tell you that this post of yours was a real blessing to me as we all can use words of encouragement.

Thank you again,
gerlinda

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

bump

Re: Could They Have Heard From On-High? Let the evidence speak for itself

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PER EMAIL FROM BRUCE WARNER





YOU ARE GOING TO HELL ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE...............................







If you do NOT abide in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST you are going to hell according to the following Holy Scripture :




2 John 1:9

"Whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST does not have God. He who abides in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST has both the Father and the Son."




If you do NOT HAVE GOD , you do NOT HAVE ETERNAL SALVATION !




Your ETERNAL SALVATION depends on whether you "abide in the doctrine of Christ" or not.




You had better be sure that WHAT YOU BELIEVE "abides in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST" because you are betting your eternal life on it !




A lot of very nice people are on their way to hell because what they believe DOES NOT "abide in the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST".




Jesus did not promise to save the "nice people" :




Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me Lord, lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father."







Brue Warner, Scripturalist for the Lord



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven