FOR FAIR USE EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES

Link of article or video : http://www.mikeblume.com/imply.htm


Hello all.

Honestly I am weary and saddened by how few even will consider the studies I am putting forth, even though they are much more biblically supported than most that go against what is being presented. I let the Holy Spirit guide me in what I study, and when I find answers that I am shown, I then research what others have found and if they are biblically supported and ring true in my heart, and if the Lord prompts me to do so, I share them, here. I understand there may be many out there that are getting something from my doing this, but mostly what gets back to me is from those who are opposed, and most likely do not even read the study, but just react to the title…or they know where I stand so react to that.

That’s okay…but sometimes it gets to me. It is then that I have to remember that it is not about me! It is all about Jesus and what He did, and is doing, and will continue to do, eternally, I have given my life to Him, and this is how He is using me, and what a blessing that is!! But, of course, I am still human, and do get weary, and saddened, but that is no excuse to give up.

The following is a testimony from a Pastor who found out the same things I am finding out, and how he views it, and how it has affected his ministry. I found comfort in his words and want to share his perspective on the off chance someone else who is seeing the same, may also find comfort. I could say that I oft times feel so alone, but that is short lived as I am never alone, for He is always with me.

It is in His strength and with His love that I keep on keeping on! That being said, I do rant a bit at the end of this article…but it is something that needs to be expressed. Thanks for understanding.

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IF MOST OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS FULFILLED,
WHAT'S THE POINT OF IT TODAY?

By MF Blume

Many have heard the past fulfillment interpretation of the book of Revelation, and reacted prematurely saying that such a thought renders Revelation irrelevant to the church of our day and to each of us as Believers. Such a response is extremely incorrect. In fact, past fulfillment causes one to realize just how much more we should be doing for the Lord because of its implications. My entire concept has changed about my life as a Christian right in the here and now as a result of this understanding!

I also wish to address the thought that many people have who indicate they relegate Revelation and its information as not so important in their lives as, say, the need to win souls, for example. I propose that a futuristic interpretation and concept of Revelation has engendered just such a belief in the minds of these people. After all, if the events listed in Revelation have not yet occurred, then why be worried about them now?

To look at the events of Revelation, for the most part, as having already been fulfilled, implies a very vital truth. And it is this implication that has simply overhauled my own life as a Christian.

Let me begin by saying that if we were to relegate any past events of history as recorded in the Bible as irrelevant to our lives as Christians, then we had better throw out most of the New Testament!

All four gospels are the history of Christ's ministry in this world. The crucifixion is a historical event! The book of Acts is the history of the early church. Much of the epistles speak about Paul's words concerning the problems with the various churches in that first century. Throw these books out, if history is irrelevant to our day today!

However, we all know such a thought is ridiculous! We need the accounts of Christ's life and crucifixion. We need the accounts of the early church in the book of Acts and the lists of problems and how Paul dealt with them in the early church period. Why? These events have IMPLICATIONS that affect our lives today as believers. I do not even have to explain the need for such implications, as that should be obvious to any believer today. But the partially fulfilled approach to the book of Revelation is no less a valid point that should urge us to greatly value this book today.

The thought that the destruction of Jerusalem, for rejecting Christ and calling for pagan Caesar to be her king instead, as we propose, is a great issue in the Book of Revelation, tells us that the destruction is all past and fulfilled. The implications to this proposition are enormous!

We end up with the City of the New Jerusalem with a river of life flowing from it, and a tree of life with leaves for the nations' healing and fruit for meat. And just before John says "Amen", he wrote words inviting all who thirst to come to this very River of Life and drink, right now, of its waters!

We propose the City is the church of Jesus Christ! Do we do so as the result of flights of fancy interpretation? Absolutely not. Jesus, Himself called us a city!

quote:
Mat 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

The writer of Hebrews synonymously called the church the Heavenly Jerusalem.

quote:
Heb 12:22-23 “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

Paul wrote about the mother, the church, as Jerusalem which is above.

quote:
Gal 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Jerusalem above is not going to be the mother of us all. She is and she was 2000 years ago in Paul's day! She "is" the mother of us all.

God foretold that His people would be called a city!

quote:
Isa 60:1-3 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. (2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. (3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

The early church viewed this prophecy as speaking about their day.

quote:
Act 13:47 “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.”

And Isaiah continues and reads:

quote:
Isa 60:11 “Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.”

Isa 60:14 “The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel."

Isa 60:15 "Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.”

People might say this has not been fulfilled, despite the words of Acts 13:47, but nobody can deny that these words are saying that it is the PEOPLE OF GOD that are to be called a City. Isaiah 62 plainly states this to be so!

quote:
Isa 62:12 “And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.”

What does this imply? What does this tell us if we are to understand that we are already in the New Jerusalem, in the form of the New Testament church? It means a lot!

It means that we should be ruling and reigning as Kings right now. The dominion that everyone is waiting for to exert over the earth in the future, is a dominion we should be enjoying right now! This shook me to my very core! I was waiting for the millennium to begin and to one day rule as a king and priest. But I realized God already made us these things.

quote:
Rev 1:5-6 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

"Hath made" is past tense! We were made kings and priests. Hello, kings and priests!

So what does it mean, then, to rule over certain cities, if this is a "now" thing?

It means revival! Church, we should be ruling our cities by having such mighty revival that righteousness begins prevailing in our communities. To one is given ten cities. This means one member of the church has enough power and anointing and ministry to lead revivals in ten cities! Do you deny this? Would not say God could do this? Church, this message has challenged my soul and pushed me towards greater victories and more powerful influence through my own ministry! I was shaken to the core when these thoughts hit me. I thought of much time I have wasted! I was waiting for millennium to rule and reign with Jesus. But I realized I can rule right now in victory over my own life, by enjoying power over sin, as Paul indicated in Romans 6 when he said "sin shall not have dominion over you."

I began to see how anemic the church has become!

If that city is the people of God right now, as all indications from the rest of the Bible, as far as I see them, are telling me, then I need to get off my backside and start ruling and overcoming obstacles and stepping out in faith for God to use me in revival! If my thoughts are correct, then there are thousands of churches that are wasting precious time in thinking they are not yet kings and priests, and cannot rule right now. They are satisfied to think they are a witness in their city, and so long as they have open doors on Sunday, for hungry souls to come if they really want Jesus, then they are doing God's will.

No, they are not!

We need to be conquering our cities. We need to be stomping out the effects of devils and unclean spirits in our towns, by starting to live victoriously in our personal lives! We have saints who can barely hold onto Jesus, let alone conquer temptation in their lives, and refuse to let sin have dominion over them.

Unbelief runs rampant! Please understand I am not trying to be mean and hard. It's just the truth! Paul said sin shall not have dominion over you, since you have been buried into Jesus' death, and have thereby caused the destruction of the old man, so we should not serve sin. Yet believers look at such a thing as impossible because "we still have this old flesh." However, Paul contended that, despite our mortal bodies, God's Spirit can quicken these bodies so that we should not live the rest of our days to the lust of the flesh and to the flesh. Paul did it!

quote:
Rom 8:11-12 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.”

What reason did Paul give for not having to be debtors to live after the flesh? It was because Christ's Spirit is in us to quicken our mortal bodies. That means that He can empower us right now while we have mortal bodies, so that we do not have sin reign over us.

quote:
Rom 6:12 “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”

He is contrasting sin ruling in our mortal bodies, with our mortal bodies being quickened to no longer live after the flesh!

Meanwhile, saints do not believe this is possible! This "old flesh" still holds us down so much, and we won't have victory until we are changed. No sir! Paul said that in this present life sin does not have to have dominion over us. We should dominate sin! We are, presently, kings and priests! And we shall rule in this world!

No, I am not speaking about KINGDOM NOW doctrine, that proposes we take over the government offices of Ottawa and Washington.

We've got churches where there are not any more gifts of the Spirit in operation than an occasional message in tongues and an interpretation of tongues, or a healing every few months, and yet we call ourselves "Apostolic"!

This message stirred me up!

The ramifications of the fact that the wrath and destruction in the Book of Revelation is fulfilled, leads one to realize that this City needs to be pumping out the River of Life so that all who are athirst can come and drink of its waters right now, not 2,000 years from now, or even 10 years from now!

Jesus clearly explained that the river of living waters is the Holy Ghost that is a well inside us!

quote:
John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

John 7:38-39 “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

How can we read these verses, and then interpret Revelation's river of living water as a literal and physical river of H20?

And the tree of life is in the church, also.

Compare:

quote:
Rev 22:2 “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

Psa 1:3 “And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.”

I am glad that David wrote that the saint of God is like a tree whose leaf does not whither, because Revelation reads that those leaves are for the healing of the nations! This is speaking about saints of God who walk not in the way of sinners, not sit in the seat of the scornful! Read the previous two verses in Psalm 1. And the fruit is brought forth in his season, just as Revelation stated that the fruit was yielded every month. This is figurative talk, just like Psalm 1:3 was figurative talk, of the saints of God.

And this Psalm chimes in harmony with these words:

quote:
Isa 61:3 “To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.”

"...that they might be called trees of righteousness"

Jesus is inside us as the Holy Ghost, and pours forth the Rivers of Living water. Or rather, He should be pouring it forth from our lives. The fact is that many believers are defeated and the River is locked up within their souls and not pouring out.

Now, it has been said that such interpretations of Revelation are flights of fancy, without basis and foundation. However, I have quoted Psalm 1:3, which nobody would deny was not speaking figuratively about the saints of God. Psalm 1:1-2 says so! So I am simply making references of the things noted throughout Revelation, that I claim are figurative, to their established use of figures of speech in the rest of the Bible.

Revelation stated that the New Jerusalem had twelve foundations having a name of the twelve apostles in each foundation. Paul already interpreted that for us as follows:

quote:
Ephesians 2:19-22 “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

DOES IT MATTER IF WE STUDY REVELATION OR NOT?

quote:
Rev 1:3 “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: ...”

I formerly noted that many relegate study of Revelation to be a lesser issue of importance than other biblical issues. Such thinking is extremely wrong. Revelation is an entire book of the Bible! Would God have us relegate an entire book of the Bible to be something of lesser concern than the rest of the Bible? Think of it. God took time and inspiration to move upon His servant, John, to write an entire book that people are casting aside today as unimportant. Oh, they might claim it's important, alright, but not as important as other issues.

I disagree. God wants us to clearly understand the entire Bible. And the temptation to cast off any study of Revelation whatsoever goes hand in hand with the thought that it is not as important as other issues.

Let me address this concept of this book by asking whether or not realization of how much more we should be doing as the church today, in the way of seeing more dominion in our personal lives and churches, is important? I think all would respond with a resounding YES! Well, this is the sort of thinking that thundered in my ears and echoed for months after I began looking at Revelation in this light.

I suggest that the reason people cast Revelation aside as a lesser book, is due to the influence of futurist interpretation of this book. Since these events are not occurring yet, and are off in the future somewhere, even if only ten years away, then all we can derive from it is the hope that evil will be over one day, and go on our merry way and simply staying saved for the time being. And let's pray we never have to be around in this world when that judgment comes! "Come before the tribulation, Jesus!"

But if everyone felt that these things were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, and that the Church is spiritually standing on a sea of glass, shouting Hosanna to Jesus, because we accepted Him whereas Jerusalem rejected Him, then this implies a great deal of truths.

Revelation 7, in noting this picture, says that the saints serve God day and night in His temple. Are we not the temple of the Holy Ghost now? Do we not serve Him now?

When one realizes that a fulfilled concept of Revelation is true, the implications will impact us so heavily, that we will all feel compelled to loose the power of God out from within our lives so much more than what we presently are, and believe God for greater things than we have dared believe Him for before. I know, because this is what happened to me.

Has my ministry changed? Yes. I have seen more miracles in my ministry, more anointing upon my preaching, and more faith for greater things. I leave you with this as my personal testimony as to what a difference Kingdom Eschatology has done in my own life.

What are the fruits of this interpretation? The fruits are evident in my own ministry. And would not something be truly considered as correct if the results are that it urges one towards greater exploits for the Lord, and a deeper appreciation for what we already have provided for us because of the present experience of the new birth that the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ provided for us? I think so!

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I do too!! I really feel that most actually willingly refuse to take a look at the possibility of how this is true. It is so interesting to me that the studies done on this issue are extremely biblically supported, and still it is easier to just ignore them and stay with the good old habits we have been taught!! We don’t want to believe we have the Kingdom of God now, and the power of God now, and as born again believers we are kings and priests…now!! That would mean we would truly have to walk our talk and truly have faith, and truly give ALL our life to Jesus. Most are just too lazy and want to put this all off into some future time. That is the GREAT FALLING AWAY that is happening NOW!!!

Falling away from the knowledge of what JESUS accomplished at the Cross. Unfortunately, Satan has inspired all this deception, and he is winning souls at an alarming rate. The great majority of Christians are in name only believing that outside forces and Satan’s power is greater than God’s indwelling power. So much easier to believe it is all outside of us…some future time…some future city…some future adversary to be defeated…some future escape… blame it on false prophets and antichrists…Jesus will save us, again!

He already saved us!! What more does He have to do? Why do we insist on not seeing the beauty of all of it being fulfilled and completed in Him? Every book of the Bible is about Him…every prophecy pointed to Him…why do we persist in being blind, when He provided the Way, the Truth and the Life and all the glorious LIGHT we need to come out of these delusions.

Jesus is not coming back to save us from anything…IT WAS FINISHED AT THE CROSS…all saving Grace established eternally!! He is coming back to JUDGE…did we take the power He gave us and use it to further the growth of His Kingdom…or did we just rest on being saved and put everything off into the future so we could write books and make lots of money, and wait for Him to come back and rapture us?

JESUS IS ALL AND EVERYTHING!!!

Patti C.

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IF MOST OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS FULFILLED......







If most of the Book of Revelation is fulfilled we must be living in the future.




The seals must have already been opened including the sixth seal Day of the Lord therefore we are already raptured.




The seventh seal wrath of God upon the whole world must have already taken place. Therefore the only thing we have left look forward to is the Second Coming of the Lord.




I must have slept through it all because I don't remember ANY OF IT !







According to Your Infallible Word, come Lord Jesus !




Bruce Warner, Scripturalist looking forward to the events of the Book of Revelation to take place soon.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic
Steven

Bruce...

Thanks for bumping this article up by commenting as it is a really good article, and thanks for being the perfect example of the kind of person I was talking about when I said: "but mostly what gets back to me is from those who are opposed, and most likely do not even read the study, but just react to the title…or they know where I stand so react to that."

From your comments it is obvious you did not read the article...it did not say "all" events...it said "most". What is also obvious is that you just want to banter and for some reason attack me. It is getting old Bruce....and frankly it makes you look combative toward a sister in Christ, who is doing what the Lord is placing on her heart.

Enough is enough!

Patti C.

While I'll agree on the topics concerning the seed of Abraham and the Israel of God, the spiritual Jew, and so forth; the kingship of those in the faith, all of these things- when we come to this issue I don't see the Revelation being fulfilled "off screen" of the scripture. This just isn't happening. It's proposing that the Lord didn't testify by His Word the fulfillment of pretty much all things biblical. The Lord didn't testify it but leaves that glory to secular men whom He constantly calls "liars" throughout His own scripture. This notion is simply impossible. Or am I misunderstanding? Where is the fulfillment being testified? Are you refering to things like Jewish Wars by Josephus? Secular history? What word is testifying to the fulfillment?

It seems pretty clear to me that the Revelation takes place at the second coming, and is about the second coming, and is the judgment of the churches by the sword of the king of Babylon prior to the second coming. But, is that what you're saying? It's a little difficult to follow what's being said there. On the one hand it seems you're saying everything has been fulfilled, but then saying, there's a future coming of Christ in judgment; on the one hand you're talking about "now" as if there's nothing to be aware of in the future- but then talk about something future "He is coming again"? It seems you're saying "it's all fulfilled" but then saying "He will come in judgment"

Dear Brother John;

I am approaching this whole issue one study at a time, and need you to be more specific in your questions. If you read the article above, exactly which part of it do you disagree with and why? If you could site which Scripture that proves it has not been fulfilled (of the things mentioned in this particular article)then we can discuss that.

Of course there are end-time events that have not happened yet...but everything having to do with Salvation was fulfilled in Christ, He established His eternal Kingdom at the Cross, we are in that kingdom when we are born again, it is not some future event...it was established for all people for all time, and that includes the Jews. The Age of Grace is coming to an end, and there will be stages of Judgment that first starts at the house of God. It is definitely obvious that the New Heaven and the New Earth are not fulfilled...but they are being established spiritually, and we will physically be there after the Second Coming.

The main point of this particular article was how believing that so much of what Christ accomplished at the Cross is still future, we are missing the Kingdom right now! We become all form and no power. The pastor who wrote this article was expressing how this power increased when he saw the truth of what Christ fulfilled by His coming and His ultimate sacrifice.

Thank you for commenting, but please narrow down your questions to deal with this specific article, that would be appreciated. Thank you.

YSIC

JESUS IS ALL AND EVERYTHING!!

Patti C.

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
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Thank you for visiting Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum!

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Hi Patti,




You make an erroneous assumption !




I read EVERY WORD of the article otherwise I would have NOT COMMENTED on it. This is A FORUM !




If you ONLY want to hear comments which agree with you, don't post them on A FORUM.




I am NOT attacking you, but rather I am NOT AGREEING WITH THE IDEAS YOU PUT FORWARD. Do you NOT know the difference ?




We don't attack people personally on a forum, but we do banter about differing ideas. That is what a forum is !




A wise person once said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen !"




YBIC,




Bruce Warner, Scripturalist

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven

It's not the verses or interpretation of the symbolisms that I'm questioning, it's this conclusion:

It may be the implications are more enormous than the author is realizing. The first implication- the one that I question- is that the Lord doesn't bother to testify in His Word the very culmination of His entire Word. In other words, where in the scripture is this "destruction of Jerusalem" that "fulfils" the Revelation? I'm looking in my bible and I only see one destruction of Jerusalem, and that prior to the first advent by the sword of one Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. Were in the bible can I read of the Lord's testimony concerning this other event? I presume then the author puts a book beside my bible and says, "Here I have the testimony of man, such as this man Josephus who is not inspired or even of the faith, who will tell you of the ..." and I'm saying, "I trust this man as far as you can throw him. His words and testimony are meaningless to me."

Again, it's proposing that the Lord testify and establish His Word throughout the course of His history and then? Got tired and left the final chapter to Josephus to testify? To understand the Word of God I'm required to have faith in Josephus, or what other man whose testimony is not established by God? The implication here is that the Lord is making it so we have to have faith in the word of man in order to understand the Word of God- for how else is the author proposing a fulfilment in "the destruction of Jerusalem" without attaching the testimony of men to the scripture itself, where else is he getting a destruction of Jerusalem if not from the writings of uninspired secular minds of men? The Lord tells us throughout the entire scripture not to trust the word of man "yea let God be true and every man a liar"; now this implies that in order for us to understand the Revelation, we must listen to the words of the very ones the Lord said don't listen to.

The implication is that the word of Josephus the uninspired secular historian is more important than the Word of God, since it is only by this word of men that we can understand the Word of God; and what has more glory the one giving the word, or the one giving understanding of the word? Clearly the latter. But I myself am certain that the Lord would not fail Himself to testify of the fulfilling of these things had they happened as proposed. He didn't fail to testify the first destruction of Jerusalem according to His Word, and He wouldn't have the second time if it were the fulfilment of His Word.

Note that I'm not saying there wasn't a destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad (in fact, I'm not saying there was, either- because I don't trust secular history one bit- why would I?) but that it is not the fulfillment of the Revelation, and if anything was a sign to that generation that the Sinai covenant was over. It happened "off screen" because it was not necessary to record for we know through what is written that the age came to a close after the gospel began to the Gentiles.

Hi John,

Ah, now I understand. Ok, let me start by saying that the statements you quoted from the author were about something I haven't fully tried to prove, so have not done enough research on. I wanted to use the whole article and not censor it, so I left it in.

That being said, right now I do believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment of the destruction. Jesus said plenty about it..."not one stone left on another"..."your house is left to you desolate"..."flee to the mountains". And also historically the nearly 2000 years of exile...I will look into it more, but there is already a good case for it being so.

If you do not agree, maybe you could present the reasons and the scriptures to prove this is not so. I would be interested in whatever you find, and it will help me discern the appropriate understanding, also.

Thanks for your input!

Patti C.

The reasons I reject the teaching are many, but above I gave the first reason- being that what you're talking about isn't in the bible. There's no testimony of a seige of Jerusalem after the gospel went to the Gentiles in the scripture, so I can be sure that the Lord Himself isn't testifying with this author about these things being fulfilled in any alleged incident only recorded in the words of men. Meaning, if there were no Jewish Wars by Josephus et. al. you would not right now being making this proposal of an alleged "fulfilment" of scripture not recorded in scripture because you wouldn't even be aware of the alleged destruction of Jerusalem at all. Because it's certainly not recorded in the bible.

But the author here is asking me, not only to fully trust the alleged testimony of uninspired men regarding this biblical matter, but to fully accept this testimony as establishing the very culmination of the Word of God. This is naturally preposterous; why would I possibly "bite" on this proposal? For all I know, there was no Josephus or seige of Jerusalem in 70 ad and "the Roman seige of Jerusalem" by Josephus, et. al. is just a fabricated document written in the middle ages to try to get Christians to think the Revelation was already fulfilled. Why would I possibly trust the word of man? Not only to trust in it, but to trust it to the point that I'm saying that it's revealing the fulfilling the Word of God?

It's just impossible that the Lord wouldn't testify to the fulfilment of His Word in His Word, as He has consistently done. Like I said I certainly agree with the ideas of the city being the church and we currently the kings and priests, and the waters of the gospel for healing the nations, and all of that is sound to me. It's the part where you go "and the Revelation is already fulfilled and so and so alleged word of man proves it" that's when I raise an eyebrow and ask, "Wait- you actually believe the history as told by men is trustworthy?" I'm confident you'll find this to be an unwise decision at some point. I am confident we stick with the bible and only the bible and we're good to go.

Hi John,

I have to say that I have never doubted that in 70AD the Temple was destroyed and the city of Jerusalem plundered and made desolate by the Romans. It is interesting that you question this.

My first thought of why there was no account of this happening in the NT, is that the books, therein, were written before 70AD. With the exception of the Book of Revelation, which most believe was written in 96AD…that is still disputed though, and there is good evidence that it too was written before 70AD. That is a whole new study that I won’t get into here. But, I will give a few excepts from a study done by a man named Matt Slick, about the other books.

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Destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. , Luke and Acts

Link of article or video : http://www.carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom

“None of the gospels mention the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. This is significant because Jesus had prophesied concerning the temple when He said "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:6, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and burned the temple. The gold in the temple melted down between the stone walls and the Romans took the walls apart, stone by stone, to get the gold. Such an obvious fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy most likely would have been recorded as such by the gospel writers who were fond of mentioning fulfillment of prophecy if they had been written after 70 A.D. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims -- such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus said -- would surely have been included. But, it was not included suggesting that the gospels (at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written before 70 A.D.

Similarly, this argument is important when we consider the dating of the book of Acts which was written after the gospel of Luke, by Luke himself. Acts is a history of the Christian church right after Jesus' ascension. Acts also fails to mention the incredibly significant events of 70 A.D. which would have been extremely relevant and prophetically important and would require inclusion into Acts had it occurred before Acts was written. Remember, Acts is a book of history concerning the Christians and the Jews. The fact that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is not recorded is very strong evidence that Acts was written before A.D. 70. We add to this the fact that Acts does not include the accounts of "Nero's persecution of the Christians in A.D. 64 or the deaths of [the apostle] James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65),"1 and we have further evidence that it was written early.

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To me this is the most compelling argument for the account of what happened in 70AD not being included in the Word of God.

JESUS IS ALL AND EVERYTHING!!

Patti C.

Right and this is why I'm rejecting the doctrine, it's not in the bible. So the Lord definitely isn't teaching this doctrine to anyone, someone else is. So all you're really doing is telling me, "Here are my reasons for why the Lord isn't testifying with me about this..." and I'm saying, "I don't think I really need to hear your reasons for why the Lord doesn't establish this doctrine- the very fact that He's not testifying with you proves your doctrine isn't His."

The last post the author makes the case that this "70ad fulfilment" is so important that should anyone have been around they would surely have recorded it, because that's how important it would be. That's how important this event would be if it were the fulfilment of the Revelation. Someone would have to write the account which would be included in our bibles as the testimony of God to the fulfilment of His Word.

But since there's not a peep in the Word of God about it, the author then concludes that- no one must've been around during the time (I guess the Lord fell asleep?), so the gospels must've been written earlier..." when actually he should be thinking, "God didn't bother to have anyone record anything about this in His Word, so it must not be as important as I've thought it was, and in fact must have nothing to do with the Word of God" ; as we have agreed this doctrine is not proceeding from the mouth of the Lord, true? This is not of the Word of God, then how can it possibley be "of faith" when faith comes by hearing the Word of God; if faith comes from hearing the Word of God, and this doctrine is not in the Word of God, then what else can I possibley conclude but that the doctrine is not of faith? And if it's not of faith, then what is it?

Just to note when I say, "your doctrine is not His" I'm meaning in this particular - not that I'm saying "then this man is a false prophet" or "this man is not a Christian" or anything. Just, these meaning- in regard to this specific doctrine right here.

I see what both you and Patti are saying and my personal belief is that most of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled however, I do tend to think that the prophecy regarding the destruction of Jerusalem has already been fulfilled because of the reasons Patti stated above but there are also unfulfilled prophecies regarding their situation as well that are prophesied about and are yet future. I do understand you believe you cannot trust these conclusions because they are not found in scripture. My question to you though would be, when unfulfilled future prophecies of the Bible are fulfilled how are you going to believe them if their fulfillment isn't already written about in scripture? My point is what if you are not personally there to witness the fulfillment, if they happen in the future their fulfillment isn't going to be written in the Bible. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but it sounds like you are saying the only way you will believe a prophecy is already fulfilled is if it's fulfillment is written about in scripture or you witness it first hand to where no secular sources of reporting it qualify, is that a fair assessment?

Bear in mind I'm not saying I don't trust the conclusions, I'm saying I don't trust your sources from which you're drawing the conclusions. Also bear in mind that if we were talking about history or something, I wouldn't have any problem with citations of Josephus and such. But when we walk into the proverbial sanctuary of the Lord to talk about His Word and everything that entails then we should be leaving Josephus et. al. at the door. Only the Word of God should ever be brought in here.

So again it's the source- I'm not saying "It's all lies!" but I am saying "It may as well be treated as such": Josephus and friends may well have written an exacting true account of the event- but it's not in the scripture and as such is factually not of faith, and not testified by the Lord. Even if it's true (and I don't doubt that it is, not that I'm saying "It never happened" that it's also possible that it never happened, and is complete fiction: I simply cannot determine this in any regard thus it's instability and uncertainty, as always with the word of men) then it was a earthly sign for the generation witnessing it that the old covenant and all with it were to be swept away. Whatever the sign may have been to them, it wasn't to us or anyone after because if it meant the fulfilment of the Word of God (specially the Revelation) then the Lord would've testified to its completion and we'd be reading in the book of Titus "and thus is came to pass according to the Word of the Lord; that He would throw down the stones of the temple" but this book is fiction and doesn't exist, of course.

About the recognition of the fulfilment, I would yes either have to experience it first hand or get a direct "It is done" from the Word of God. Again, it's not that I'm saying "everything not of the bible is false and a lie" but that I can't be sure of it, and as such it's no good to me in most matters, and just right out in biblical matters.

When Jesus was talking about the temple I think He is teaching beyond the physical, and about the spiritual- so He's prophesying about the spiritual temple, and not the physical temple; just as when he cursed the fig tree, He was prophesying about the spiritual fig tree, not that physical tree and its lack of physical figs that was literally in front of Him. After all, Jesus said "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" and He wasn't speaking of the physical temple even though they thought He was.

Got it. One point to consider though, when you have extra biblical sources confirming biblical assertions it in some cases strengthens the case for the assertion. Otherwise you could argue circular reasoning, corroboration or collusion.

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RE: IF MOST OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS FULFILLED..........







So what, FOR THE MOST PART, do you think is fulfilled, and what FOR THE LEAST PART do you think is YET TO BE FULFILLED ?




Let's get to the meat of it rather make such a vague statement !







Bruce Warner, Scripturalist for the Lord

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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
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Steven

Bruce,

If you have been reading my studies you know what I think has been fulfilled, and have proven biblically why I have come to those conclusions.

I think it would be good for you to state what you think has been fulfilled or not, and prove it the same way.

Just making a list without supporting evidence from His Word really serves no purpose.

JESUS IS ALL AND EVERYTHING!!

Patti C.