For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
Link:
Note: Before commenting on any posts please make sure you either watch or read each post in it’s entirety. Before, making a comment, if you don’t have the time to watch or read fully please restrain from commenting. When you do this it will help to reduce confusion.

Thank you for visiting Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum!

Please add us to your favorites!
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
Our Facebook page is :
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rapture-Bible-Prophecy-Forum/362856490414697
Please LIKE our Facebook page! Facebook is growing daily!

NOTE:

This was Censored on Five Doves but posted here:

( Special NOTE: I Steven King have received many complaints for the last few years that FIVE DOVES does NOT post all the submissions sent into FIVE DOVES

Many people who used to post on FIVE DOVES no longer submit because FIVE DOVES censors the submissions.

There does not seem to be rhyme or reason to this so in fairness for FREEDOM of SPEECH I am posting some submissions here on Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum ).


( As long as they are not personal attacks on fellow Christians and are done to edify, educate, exhort and encourage the saints about JESUS, the Rapture or the SECOND COMING of JESUS Christ our LORD and Saviour I will do my best to post the letters.)

( Please know I do not want submissions sent to me attacking people personally. )



Please just send in submissions with your bible scriptures backing up your position and I will do my best to post. or e mail me for a password:

stevensandiego@ymail.com



=================================
=================================


TO DONNA COTHRAN AND ALL DOVES





RE Donna Cothran (29 Aug 2013)

"Patti C (28 Aug 2013) "Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture/ Blessed Hope & The Second Coming"}





Dear Donna, and All Doves,





Thank you for responding to my post, Donna, your letter is included below this one. I was very surprised that you were the only one, but glad I did not get a mass attack...ha! I want you, and all Doves, to understand that I used to believe everything that you said in your letter. If you remember any of my postings from last year, you know I was totally into the Pre-Trib rapture, and the 7 year time line and on and on. What made me, over the course of less than a few months, all of a sudden start posting, or trying to post, almost the exact opposite of what I believed? I will tell you, it has been directly studying the Bible and communing with God through the Holy Spirit. That is it...I am finding out for myself.





What would you do if this happened to you? Would you go on supporting concepts that you know in your heart of hearts are not the truth? Would you just stop writing to those people whom you have come to care about, because you do not want to offend them? Or would you try and share in the best way you know how, by supplying Biblical support, share this new found knowledge and information with those you love, but more importantly, with those He loves?





[ I ask this question to all Doves who read this. What would you do? Please feel free to answer me, and if you want no more of what I have to share, then just let me know, I will stop sending to this site. Yet, I had to try, I had to obey the Lord, because that is what my walk has become, obeying through the power of His Spirit, the commands of His Word.}

That being said, I would like you to consider the comments below, that came to mind when considering how to respond to your questions. I am just going to present it as I wrote it.



　

Donna, I am assuming you are born again, and therefore have become a new creation in Christ. Although you have gone through this amazing change, your name is still Donna, is it not?





The Israel that God loved in the Old Testament were His chosen ones whom He had a personal relationship with, those that worshiped in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. After Christ came and lived and died for all mankind, everyone who is born-again and have a personal relationship with Him, are called by the same name.





It is the world that tells you that natural Israel is God's people, because when you really look into the Bible you will find this is not the truth of what the Lord is saying. Consider the following:





Natural Israel vs Spiritual Israel

Old Testament vs New Testament

Old Covenant vs New Covenant

The Law vs Grace

Blood of sacrificed lambs vs the Blood of the Lamb

Captives vs Free in Christ





Cain's offering to God, his giving to the Lord of things made with his own hands, having pride that he created them; thus worshiping the created and not the Creator; vs Abel's offspring of giving respect to the Creator, by presenting Him with an offering of what he knows is the Truth. He obeys what the Lord showed him to give as an offering.



Cain vs Abel



Esau vs Jacob

Blinded vs Born Again

The tare vs the Wheat

The Law vs Grace

The Grave vs Heaven

Dead vs Alive





The Pharisee did not recognize Jesus, because they were blinded by their fallen minds, which no law could make to see. Their blindness was spiritual blindness, they wanted a material, literal, kingdom of God to just suddenly appear! Had they truly known the Scriptures, as the true people of God did, they would have known who Jesus was. But, it was not God's plan for them to know, so that the New Law, the New Covenant, the LIVING SPIRIT would save the whole world. God gave His only Son...He Gave Himself to us, so that all will be saved. Yet that same spirit of religion that the Pharisee had, still exists today and it is in our Christian churches, and it will be so called Christians that will be persecuting the real born again Christians in the last days...we are there.





Anyone BORN AGAIN is God's chosen people...there are only two sides to chose from.....those that are with Him, and those who are against Him. Israel is the Church of the Body of Christ. It does not replace the Church....it has always been God's Church.




This drama has played out on a SPIRITUAL level already...it is FINISHED. Jesus did everything to fulfill the promises of God to His People. It will now play out on a Material level, reflecting what Mankind, as a whole, has chosen. It is playing out right now, on the world stage....it is being revealed. There are so many divisions in the Body of Christ, so many modern day churches, that have a form of godliness but no power.





You, Donna are speaking of natural Israel from which our Lord emerged, but Jesus is Coming back for Spiritual Israel....ALL born again believers. Who have believed without seeing, as Spirit cannot be seen with physical eyes.



We have two spirits to choose from. The spirit of anti-Christ, which appears so worldly Christ-like and is called religion. Or the HOLY SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD, called the TRUTH, THE WAY, and THE LIFE.





Now, let me address something else you included in your post to me, and I quote:





"It is at the end of Jacob’s Trouble” that Israel will see their Messiah, whom they" have pierced".



What member of mankind has not pierced Christ? Even literally, it was a Roman Soldier that did the piercing of Christ at His crucifixion, upon orders from a Roman leader. But, think about it, each of us is responsible for what happened to Jesus, as he died for all of our sins. Who was, is, or will be, sinless among us...only Jesus. All eyes will see Him, not just a few, but All. And all are guilty of piercing Him. Yet, when God's chosen see Him, for the second time, as they saw Him when they were born again, they will weep with Joy, instead of fear.





I cannot go back to looking at this any other way. Plain and simple, the Holy Spirit will not let me. I hope you understand. What I am really saying with all this is FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF, do not just believe something that someone else is proving to you....prove it yourself, before you truly believe it. I have done it both ways now, and believe me, the find out for yourself way is the only way.





Bless you Donna, for at least being willing to look into it, and asking good questions.





In Christian love to all my brothers and sisters



Patti C.



　

#####################




Donna Cothran (29 Aug 2013)

"Patti C (28 Aug 2013) "Israel & The Church/ Tribulation& Rapture/ Blessed Hope & The Second Coming""



　

　

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

　

Hi Patti ~~ re: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2013/pattic828-2.htm



how is it, then Israel is now its own independent nation? ~~ too, every war against them since 1948 they've won ~~to this day Israel flourishes



　

　

The Church is not Israel, but was a 'mystery' revealed in this Age of Grace that came into being on the Day of Pentecost ~~ the church, after 2,000 years, (2 days according to God's perspective) will continue on earth until Jesus calls her HOME to Heaven at the Rapture, which is verrrrrrry soon!



　

Our Lord Jesus is dealing distinctly with the church different from Israel today . . where, in the Bible is the church called to endure Jacob's trouble?. It is Israel being addressed . .



Today's natural Jewish nation is still Israel. . . on the other hand, It is the church, not Israel in this age of Grace spreading the Good news of Jesus Christ all over the globe and Israel remains in unbelief just as God told us while the church is still here on earth~



　

Thankfully, there are Messianic Jews joining the Church in this age, but that doesn't make Israel the 'church'



　

　

It is at the end of Jacob’s Trouble” that Israel will see their Messiah, whom they" have pierced", ~~~The church already raptured as the Bride of Christ will be returning with The Risen Lord at that time~

　

Replacement Theology, in which the Church has become Israel is a false teaching~



Oh, Church, this is still the Day of Christ Jesus, ~~ til we're raptured, then the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, yea the Lion of Judah will deal with Israel, as we watch from Heaven Daniel's 70th Week to unfold ~~

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic
Steven

THANKS STEVEN!!

Bless you!!

Patti C.

FOR FAIR USE AND EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES




Hi Patti...You have a very good argument against what Donna has said. She sees the Bible in a dispensationalist manner, so she cannot see anything except the ways of Scofield, and according to them, the whole plan of God is about the salvation of the Jews, whom they claim is "Israel". Because of this, their theology is all messed up. They do not take into consideration Galatians 6:15-16...

"For IN CHRIST JESUS neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATURE (those in Jesus Christ...the "ekklesia"). (vs.16) And as many as walk according to THIS RULE, (being "in" Jesus Christ") peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD.

When God, Himself, defines a term for us, then maybe we should take THAT DEFINITION HE GIVE US as "gospel truth". Being "circumcised" (or not) according to the Jewish religion (Judaism) does NOT make anyone "Israel, " according to what this verse says....it's only being "in Jesus Chris" that counts.

This is the BEST study on this that I have seen to date:


http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/israel2.htm


Piece of the link article:


Matt 1:1 "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ. . . "

The New Testament is about Jesus Christ - NOT about Israel!


Joseph, the earthly "father" of Jesus, also had a father named Jacob (Matt 1:16). Joseph also had a dream and went into Egypt.

Matt 2:13 "And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, 'Arise, and take the young child and His mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy Him."

Matt 2:15 "And (he) was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying "Out of Egypt have I called My son."

* * * * * This New Testament text (Matt 2:15), is a DIRECT QUOTE of Hosea 11:1, which was originally spoken of the Nation of Israel, but NOW it refers to Christ as the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy of the Hosea text.

Jesus is NOW the NEW "Israel." The prophecy is FULFILLED in Jesus!

*************



As I told Steven quite a while back, unless one can define the term "Israel", there is no way they can properly interpret the end-times in which we live. That is the KEY to the Bible and the people whom it concerns. The whole Bible is about JESUS CHRIST and those who are followers of God (ISRAEL) in OT, and those in Jesus Christ (ISRAEL) in the NT.

Arlene

Hi Patti,

Arlene, Did tell me a long time ago....:)

Unless we understand "define" who "Israel" is it is very difficult to understand the bible prophecies of the end times.

I agreed with her since I had already learned this by listening to Joe Ortiz interview on Rick Wiles TruNews Broadcast.

Just confirming Arlene's post.


God Bless


Steven

Arlene,
I am so glad you added that information and sites to visit in support of what we are saying. You are so right! Knowing who Israel is opens up the whole Bible for us, and from there we can plainly see other truths. I am in total agreement with you, that the Whole Bible is about Jesus, He is all and everything! He is at the center of all prophecy and the fulfillment of all of God's promises. He WAS,IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, OUR BLESSED HOPE.

You, Arlene, are the one who sent me on this journey of discovery, where I am finding out so much about the Truth. It all began with finding out about who Israel is, as it is a major foundation stone on which the rest of the Truth has been built. I am so grateful to you, for opening my eyes, to how knowing this about Israel, makes all the difference.

Thanks dear sister!

Patti C.

bump

bump