FOR FAIR USE AND EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES



Some Christians are so vehement about the fulfillment of "Jacob's Trouble" that they are using this over and over again as a forecast (prophecy) for the "JEWS". Is it really?

Who is "JACOB"?? He was one through whom came ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. And this is only because his NAME WAS CHANGED TO "ISRAEL" BY GOD...Genesis 32:28.

ISRAEL are God's people...those who become believers as Jacob did. His name was not "Israel" while he was still an unbeliever. But it became "ISRAEL" WHEN HE BELIEVED GOD. "Jacob" means "Prince of God". All of "Israel" and all of "Judah" come out of Jacob....and they are ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL (Jacob).

God must have known the difficulty in understanding that would result from this. It takes perception, study, and the leading of the Holy Spirit to understand it. Those who are meant to understand, will. Others will not until their due time.

This verse in Jeremiah 30:7 says, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it."

There is no word "Jew" or "Judah" in that verse!! So, why do some Christians CHANGE THIS VERSE by inserting the word "Jew" for "Jacob"? Jacob was NOT A "JEW"...nor was Isaac, from whom Jacob came.

"ISRAEL" always refers to believers. Some of these believers may become apostate, (they are blinded by God until some day their "blindness" is removed BY GOD). This is what is meant by "and so ALL Israel shall be saved" in Romans 11:26.

There is NO MENTION of "Jews" in that verse either!. It talks of the "ungodliness from Jacob"...which is "Jacob" before he became "Israel". Those who revert back to unbelief, revert back to "Jacob".....BUT THEY ARE STILL "ISRAEL" in God's eyes. And, they will be saved AFTER the Gospel message has been fulfilled completely with the Gentiles (all the other nations that are not included with "Israel").....the rest of the WORLD.

Search the history of the Bible. In the original manuscripts, the word "Jew" was not there. That word was added during the 1800s, in some cases, for substitution for the word "Judah"...or those who were apostate from Judah (and became the religion of Judaism, who called themselves "Jews" or "Jewish"....see Rev.2:9 and 3:9).



This is a good article on this:


Last Day Bible Prophecy

JESUS SPOKE ABOUT END-TIME EVENTS. His diciples asked Him: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN when all these things shall be fulfilled?" Luke reports: "...they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and WHAT SIGN WILL THERE BE when these things shall come to pass? Matthew's report is specific: "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the END OF THE WORLD?" (Mar 13:3-4, Luk 21:7, Matt 24:3)

Jesus answered them and GAVE THEM THE SIGN: “When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ...” Mark reported: “But when ye shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand)” Luke's Report TELLS US PLAINLY what we're supposed to "UNDERSTAND": “And WHEN YE SHALL SEE JERUSALEM COMPASSED WITH ARMIES, THEN KNOW that the DESOLATION THEREOF is nigh.” The END-TIME ANNIHILATION of JERUSALEM IS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION!! (Mat 24:15, Luk 21:20, Mar 13:14) ..... Let's TURN ON THE NEWS and see if armies are CURRENTLY surrounding Jerusalem?? --clark
Jacob's Trouble


Jacob’s Trouble

We are currently editing this article.
email me at clark@callear.org for current status.

The introduction follows:

Most evangelical Christians believe, that in the last seven years, we will experience the period we call The Great Tribulation. Most modern-day religious Jews do not use or understand the New Testament. Most have not yet accepted their Messiah Jesus Christ. Their Hebrew Torah is translated from the same records that make up the Old Testament of our Christian Bible. Acknowledging the prophesies of the Torah, these Jews teach and understand that they will soon be facing this Great Tribulation:

Jeremiah Chapter 30 יִרְמְיָהוּ :

“The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 'Thus speaketh the LORD, the God of Israel, saying: Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will turn the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'

And these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child; wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is a time of trouble unto Jacob, but out of it shall he be saved." (v.1-7)

The Christian King James translation calls this: “the time of Jacob's trouble” (Jer 30:7)”:

The scripture very plainly states that this “time of Jacob's trouble” pertains to both Judah and the entirety of Israel:

“these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah”

The scripture says “it is a time of trouble unto Jacob, but out of it shall he [Jacob] be saved.” Jacob is Israel: All 12 Tribes! Currently, in 2010 A.D. all Tribes, except for part of Judah, are scattered.

Below I will show, among other things, how the last-day prophesies teach us that the entire world is now facing The Great Tribulation. I also will show how and when The Lord will stop scattering, and “save” 12,000 members from each of the 12 Tribes during the Tribulation. I’ll also show that the 144,000 Israelites will be saved and sealed as they walk the earth during The Tribulation… all remaining born-again Christians (who are sealed by the Holy Spirit), both alive and dead, will be raptured/resurrected “at the last [7th] trump.”

About 536 BC (KJV, Daniel Chapter 10) the Angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel in a vision. Daniel collapsed flat to the ground in fear. Gabriel strengthened and encouraged him. The angel explained how he and another angel ("Michael, one of the chief princes") had been fighting together against spiritual wickedness in high places. Then Gabriel spoke a single sentence to Daniel and again he collapsed to the ground. The words were:

"Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. (Dan 10:14)"

Daniel's “people” consist of the same people mentioned above by Jeremiah, namely: Jacob, more exactly described as "the 12 Tribes of the House of Israel." Daniel was about to be told, by God's angel Gabriel, what would happen to these 12 Tribes in the last days... again, the angel spoke, saying:

“I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth…”

Daniel still could not handle the stress…about 14 years later (about 522-521 BC) Daniel was given another chance. Gabriel again returned to Daniel:

“Yea, whiles I [Daniel] was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning [see above], being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding." (Dan 9:21-22)

Here Daniel is shown “The 70 Weeks [weeks of years] Vision” (Dan 9: 24-27). The end of this vision (v.27) describes the final Seven Years (containing the Great Tribulation):

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Read it again with my added emphasis:

And he [“Messiah the Prince”] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [7 years] : and in the midst of the week [7 years] he [“Messiah the Prince”] shall cause the sacrifice[God’s sacrifice] and the oblation [Gods oblation] to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it [“thy holy city” Jerusalem] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [Israel’s “holy city” Jerusalem will be completely, utterly, and altogether annihilated at the end of the Great Tribulation.]

This particular vision occurred “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes (Dan 9:1).” We need to jump ahead to Chapters 11 & 12 to read the remainder of this vision. Chapters 11 & 12 & 9 are dated the same:

“Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. And now will I shew thee the truth." Dan 11:1-2)

By this time Daniel had been waiting 14 years to “understand what shall befall thy people [12 Tribes of Israel] in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days." (Dan 10:14). Chapter 11 details the rise of the antichrist. Chapter 12 focuses on the Great Tribulation:

“there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [All 12 Tribes of Israel] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

**************

This article reflects my thoughts extremely closely. What I am trying to show, and as this article shows, that the "time of Jacob's trouble" is NOT FOR THE JEWS....it is for ALL TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL! And these people are now scattered throughout the whole world.

The "tribulation" (Jacob's trouble) is for EVERYONE, because we don't even know who ALL these people are.....yet! But the "Israel of God" is us (Christians)....Gal.6:15-16...and we have been going through "tribulation" since the time of Christ...John 16:33.


Arlene

Hi Arlene,

After deep thought and searching the scriptures, I have got to respond to your hatred of the word "Jew". I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you are wrong!

You refer a tremendous amount of your theories from mans teachings as you refer often to other mens writings that are not from the scriptures. I know, I know, you take the good out of the bad, so it is ok to read other writings, But. When it is scripture that you are quoting and backing it up with writings of ordinary "men", I have to respond.

For instance:

You wrote in your post the following:

Search the history of the Bible. In the original manuscripts, the word "Jew" was not there. That word was added during the 1800s, in some cases, for substitution for the word "Judah"...or those who were apostate from Judah (and became the religion of Judaism, who called themselves "Jews" or "Jewish"....see Rev.2:9 and 3:9).

You are using Revelation 2:9 to back up your theory that the "Jews" or the Jewish people are of the synagogue of Satan. You have TOTALLY missed the meaning of this verse! Firstly, the only word mentioned here is Jews. And the verse is saying: They say they are Jews, but are NOT, because their synagogue belongs to Satan.

GET IT! They are NOT JEWS! Because their synagogue belongs to Satan! Judaism is NOT of the TRUE Jews. ALL of the houses of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, Simeon, are JEWS! And here is why! They are of the territory of JUDAH! They all are of the SOUTHERN KINGDOM! So in essence they are all JEWS! The word Jew is derived from a shortened form of Jew-dah, or Jew-rusalem, or Jew-dea. It was shortened slang for all of these words. All of the inhabitants of Jerusalem were called JEWS or JEWRY:

Jeremiah 11:1... The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2... Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;

THERE'S your PROOF straight from the scriptures! The word of the LORD said to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to ALL the men of JUDAH, the territory! Here you have the territory AND the people of the capitol clustered into ONE POEPLE! They were ALL Jews simply because they lived in and around the same area! Even though only the 4 tribes were really TRUE JEWS or the people of the covenant of God.

Men from the east came looking for the "King of the JEWS". Yet, not all that lived in the territory of Judah were TRUE JEWS, or of the 4 tribes mentioned. This is why it is said, "Not all who call themselves Jews are Jews"! There was NO TERRITORY called JUDAH when the promises were given to Jacob! Why? Because they were not THERE YET! They had NOT inherited their territorial land rights, thus, they could not be called JEWS yet! It was too early in the old testament! See the map of Canaan as divided among the 12 tribes dated 1200-1020 BC. All these tribes were part of the SOUTHERN KINGDOM with the capitol being Jerusalem.

Jesus was a Jew by way of the area that he lived, not for what he believed! That is why they put of the cross "King of the Jews".

With Christian love,

Michael P

Thanks for your comment, Mike...

But you do not know the bible....

Rev.2:9 and 3:9 says there are people who "call themselves Jews" but they really aren't Jews. Read what Jesus Christ, Himself tells us:

...."I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN."...Rev.2:9

If you are arguing with this statement, take that argument to God in prayer, and don't criticize me for saying something that God, Himself, said in defining an EVIL PEOPLE.

I know of NO OTHER PEOPLE in this world who actually call themselves "Jews". Guess who they are? They aren't the Russians, or the Turks, or the Portuguese. THEY ARE THE JEWS! So, those verses apply to Jews...and the rest you can figure out for yourself...

Nowhere do I say that I hate the word "Jew", or the "Jews" themselves. I hate nobody. But some Christians today actually WORSHIP the Jews and the Nation of Israel ABOVE THEIR WORSHIP OF OUR LORD. Nobody except God is worthy of worship. You will fight for the honor of the Jews and fleshy "Israel"...and I will, to my dying day, fight for the truth of the WORD OF GOD.

If the word "JEW" was not even in the original Bible, then who gave the transcribers the right to put it there in the first place? It wasn't in ANY authentic Bible until the 1800s. Do your diligent research. What I say are not THEORIES....they are FACT (TRUTH).

And WHO called Jesus "the king of the Jews" anyway? Was it from a truthful and reliable source? You figure it out?


The "wise men" from the East (Magi) who were ASTROLOGERS...Mt.2:2

Pontius Pilate (Roman Governor) who ordered the crucifixion...Mt.27:11, Mk.15:2

The soldiers who scourged and tortured Him...Mt.27:9


But, if the word "Jew" wasn't even in the Bible to begin with, then this whole question becomes moot anyway.


You may believe the "wise men/astrologers" (which practice is condemned in the bible...Isaiah 47:13), or Pontius Pilate (the Governor of Rome), or the Roman soldiers (who beat Jesus nearly to death before nailing Him to the cross).....but I'm not that ignorant! If those detestable men called Jesus "King of the Jews", then you can believe them, but I'm much wiser than to do it too...

As for Jesus celebrating (practicing Judaism)....he never EVEN ONE DAY did such a thing!! Any "Feast Day" that Jesus observed was from Leviticus 23...and it was a FEAST OF GOD. The Jews NEVER had anything to do with God's institution of those feasts. The "Jewish religion" of JUDAISM co-opted the Feast Days as their own in their APOSTASY....and ADDED TO THEM with Hanukkah (Book of Macabees) and Purim (Book of Esther) as well. These added "feast days" are not among the ones instituted by GOD....see Leviticus 23.

And the "time of Jacob's trouble" has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JEWS because JACOB WAS NEVER A JEW....and never converted to Judaism, either.

And that's absolute truth!! None of it is a "theory"...check it out!! Start by reading and studying your own Bible and NOT listening to Pastors who were taught by MEN in school....see I John 2:27

Your verse in Jeremiah 11 speaks of the "men of Judah" and to the "inhabitants of Jerusalem". There is not ONE mention of "Jew" in that verse. You'll have to do better than that to convince me, or any other thinking person, otherwise.

And, again, I thank you for your comment! Others may have made the same mistakes as you did in your thinking, and this might clear this question up for them as well.

Arlene

Arlene,

You are not comprehending ANY THING that I am saying! I do NOT attend a building of worship and have NOT been taught by a pastor. I also do not condone the wise men, pontius pilate, or anything ROMAN! That all is not the subject ANYWAY! You are interjecting your own thoughts into everything that I say instead of READING what I type and comprehending what I am SAYING! Revelation 2:9... implies that there are people that call themselves JEWS that are NOT JEWS! But are instead of the synagogue of Satan! YOU are the one that is misinterpreting the scriptures! It is NOT difficult to understand that verse and it makes me wander your abilities to comprehend English!

I am old and just as set in my ways as you, but I pray just as much for understanding as the next! You insinuate an awful lot about others!! This is not Christian in my opinion, but vindictive! You try to come off as nice but give off the attitude of indifference and divisiveness! Not a teacher or BISHOP!

I have laid out for you the scriptures to back up my understanding of such and no longer feel obligated to try and communicate with you about anything! What YOU believe is your business. But do not ever again put ME in a stereotype of your so called wisdom! You DO NOT know it all by any means as I have tried to show you nicely. But you need to be put in your place!

If the tiny Nation of Israel means NOTHING to the world, then why are all of the prophesies in the scriptures falling in place every day in the Middle East, around them? And how do you explain the rising of her in ONE DAY in 1948? How did the Jews defeat such impregnable odds that have been stacked against her in battle? Why did Adolf Hitler try to genocide them? Why does the whole WORLD HATE THEM? I'll tell you WHY! Because they worship the same GOD as WE DO! Yehweh! They just MISSED THE BOAT when Jesus first came!

You are confused about the synagogue of Satan! It is the Kabala and the leadership of the Scribes and Pharisees that led astray the Hebrew tribes that lived in JEW-DEA! God gave the Jews a spanking for their indifference to him and it is all throughout the BIBLE! THEY are the ones that call themselves JEWS and are NOT!

And further more, you are not one of the 144,000! They are MALE! If you were so up on scripture you would know that Gods government is led by him, the Father to Jesus Christ, to the Husband of the family and then to the Wife! THAT IS SCRIPTURAL! Revelation 14:4 SAYS IT ALL!

Read what I post and try NOT twisting it to fit your beliefs about EVERYONE! I do not contort well, as you may now understand!

YBIC

MICHAEL

Back to you, Mike...


And I repeat again, "You do not know the bible"....

Perhaps it might open your eyes to the 144,000 in one I posted a while back:

FOR FAIR USE AND EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES



When reading and studying the Bible, there are "levels" of understanding which come through with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Initial reading does not show the "types and shadows" that one sees after deeper study of the NT when compared with the OT. After study, we realize that the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham was a "type" of the sacrifice of Jesus by God the Father. There are so many "types" that can be seen but only by those whose "eyes" and "ears" are opened by the Holy Spirit.

The sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation chapter 7 is another scripture that has a hidden lesson underneath the actual verse. Some people say that these "tribes" indicate the Jews, which they think to be "natural Israel"...but they are wrong. In ANY listing of the Tribes of Israel in the OT, they ALWAYS begin with the Tribe of REUBEN because he was the "first born", and this is essential for the Jews.

The Tribes of Israel in Rev. chapter 7 begin with JUDAH, which indicates JESUS CHRIST (The Lion of the Tribe of Judah) as the "Firstborn" of the CHURCH, which is the "body of Christ". The NAMES of the people indicate the SPIRITUAL JOURNEY through which each one of the "sons of God" must go through in their journey to being a MATURE Christian. The "kings and priests" who will rule in God's Kingdom will not be those who are still "babes in Christ", and this journey is through much "tribulation" while in this world....and through much study and faith....see II Tim. 2:15...."Study to show thyself approved unto God....etc"

This is the "mark of the prize of the high calling" talked about by Paul in Philippians 3:14. This is best explained by J. Preston Eby from pieces taken out of several of his writings on these tribes of Israel.

Meanings behind the names of the Tribes of Israel: EACH CHRISTIAN'S JOURNEY TOWARD THE "PRIZE"



Can you not see the mystery? As we progress from tribe to tribe there is an ascending scale of spiritual growth, experience, and development moving us along from step to step, from dealing to dealing, from accomplishment to accomplishment, and from attainment to attainment. God continuously and increasingly floods our hearts with light, understanding, glory, reality, and power!

In the tribe of JUDAH (to be a praise) we receive the revelation and call to sonship.

In REUBEN (behold a son!) the life of sonship appears and begins to be raised up within us.

In GAD (a troop) we learn spiritual warfare by which we begin to overcome.

In ASHER (happy) we are flooded with the overwhelming joy of the kingdom of God - unaffected, indestructible joy and confidence.

In NAPHTALI (wrestling) we are given hind's feet to ascend into the high places of the Spirit in overcoming victory.

In MANASSEH (causing to forget) we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

In SIMEON (hearing) the revelation of God's truth and purpose in us comes into focus with great clarity as we truly "hear" what the Father is saying to us.

In LEVI (joining, union) there is the marriage of soul and spirit within, restoring us into singleness, oneness, and wholeness in union with Christ - man as man was meant to be.

In ISSACHAR (payment, compensation) we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places, endued and empowered with all that is needed to fulfill the sonship ministry - all the fullness of God!

Now we come to ZEBULUN (dwelling, habitation) where we no longer just "receive" things from God, but at last we enter into the high calling of God, granted an abundance entrance into the kingdom of God, to remain, abide, and dwell in the Father's house of sons! It is here that we find our place in the new order of sonship, knowing of a certainty who we are, what we have received, what our mission is, and we recognize that now the hour of the unveiling is nigh at hand! There is a sense of urgency, yet we abide in Him and wait for God's hour to strike when we shall receive our marching orders!

In its spiritual meaning, JOSEPH points unerringly to the great increase that has come into the lives of God’s sons as we have progressed on this journey into God’s fullness! I realize that many speak of Joseph, and the meaning of his name (may He add), in outward terms of the multitude of his descendants or of the vast increase of the kingdom of God in the earth. But when Rachel named Joseph, she did not have in mind the increase that would come out of Joseph himself, but “may He add” expressed her deep and insatiable desire for yet another son! Her reference was to Benjamin, not Joseph! Spiritually this points us to the ultimate consummation of our sonship where the work within us is complete, and in Benjamin we stand in all the glory, authority, and dominion of our full sonship as SONS OF THE RIGHT HAND! Oh, yes! In Joseph we have come to a high stature in Christ, to a place of rich fulfillment and glorious potential, yet still we yearn for the completion, for the fullness, for the HOUR OF MANIFESTATION! Our desire is for Benjamin!

A son! A son at the right hand! In BENJAMIN we complete our journey into sonship and to the throne! The throne of Israel was in Jerusalem, and it is wondrously revealing that Jerusalem was located, not in Judah as is commonly supposed, but in the territory of Benjamin! (Josh. 18:2 .

Many have seen a reference to Jerusalem in Moses’ blessing on Benjamin, “And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the Lord shall dwell in safety by him; and the Lord shall cover him all day long, and He (the Lord) shall dwell between his (Benjamin’s) shoulders” (Deut. 33:12). The dwelling place of the Lord among His people Israel was in Jerusalem, in the temple. Thus, the Lord later located His sanctuary, the temple, in the territory of the inheritance of Benjamin! The glory of the Lord now rests upon the sons of God who make up the body of Christ, which is also the true and eternal and spiritual and heavenly temple of God and the New Jerusalem!

**********************

If there are any BETTER explanations of Revelation chapter 7, I would love to hear them.

Arlene

With Love Arlene,

I know all about the shadows and examples of the "Fleshly Israel, tribes, etc...

And I know about the Christian journey symbolized by what you are saying about the 144,000. What YOU are missing is that the 144,000 are a SPECIFIC number of Male Virgins out of all 12 tribes, 12,000 of each tribe that constitute the ruling kings and priests of Revelation 7 and 14! Again, I understand how the Lord speaks to the LITERAL things and symbolizes the spiritual things.

EXAMPLE:

Revelation 14:4... These are they which were not defiled with women;

This first sentence is telling you that they are MEN not defiled with women by sex! The next sentence tells you WHY!

Revelation 14:4 cont'd.... for they are virgins.

This sentence is telling WHY they are not defiled with women, because they are VIRGINS! That is the LITERAL meaning AND the SPIRITUAL meaning! The literal meaning is obvious and explained and the spiritual meaning is the same! They are not defiled by women OR the definition of women STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BIBLE....is

Revelation chapter 17 tells you about a WOMAN sitting on a BEAST and she was called:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH!

A WH..RE! These men are not defiled by FALSE RELIGION and the HARLOT!

These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

They follow Jesus through the 12 tribes of training as YOU described, as ALL CHRISTIANS do! But the big difference is the next sentence in verse 4.

These were redeemed from among MEN, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb.

THEY are CHOSEN! THIS is talking about SPIRITUAL ISRAEL! The ones that are beheaded in Revelation 20:4 that will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years! AGAIN, here we have a LITERAL and a SPIRITUAL explanation all tied up together in one verse. One has to have EYES to see it though!

More proof can be found back at Revelation 14:3... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

If you go back to Revelation 4:4 you will see who was around the throne of God....

4... And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Who are they? Matthew 19:28... And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That is twelve of them and the other twelve are the 12 tribes patriarchs. They make up the 24 elders before the throne of God. Revelation 5:9... And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation;
10... And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There is a LOT here to take in. First you can see that there is a ruling structure emanating from the throne to the 24 elders. The four beasts are there. The 144,000 come after the 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of thousands of angels in verse 11 of revelation chapter 5.

Did you notice that the 144,000 were singing as it were a new song the same as the 24 elders that were singing a new song. The 24 elders are representing ALL CHRISTIANITY by the vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints, in verse 8.

Another point that you have missed is that NOT ALL OF THE 144,000 are JEWISH! Just the tribes that represented those that lived in the TERRITORY of JUDAH. There were 48,000 represented by the 4 tribes that lived in and around JEW-RUSALEM and in the territory of JEW-DAH. That leaves 96,000 for the NORTHERN KINGDOM of tribes that were the Lost 10 tribes, that were NOT JEWISH because they did NOT live in the territory of JEW-DAH!

Another literal and spiritual meaning in the same sentence! They are of the literal blood lines of the OLD TESTAMENT and covenant, literally, and spiritually rule on thrones, in the new testament and covenant, for 1000 years with Jesus Christ.

Michael

Michael...

I appreciate your views, as I once had the same ones.

However, I know now that those beliefs are WRONG.

"Virgins" in the Bible have nothing to do with SEX! Virgins have the correct doctrine and are following only the Bible and God through the Holy Spirit.

And, if one thinks about it sensibly, I doubt you can even FIND 144,000 "male virgins" in the world at this time....unless they are UNDER the age of 12. And in this immoral time, that's even pushing it. The Roman Catholic church hasn't done too well with it, has it?

And even if it were 144,000 male "virgins", they would NOT BE NORMAL! Sexuality is a normal part of manhood, and to think that one would have to sacrifice normal sexuality is beyond what God would require of any adult male.

They are not "Jews" because none of the Tribes of Israel were "Jews". Check your historical facts on this. Jacob was not a Jew. And the Tribe of Judah were not Jews (practiced Judaism under the Pharisees and Rabbis)...unless they converted to Judaism after they became apostate.

The "Israel of God"...Galatians 6:15-16...are from whom the 144,000 are picked to be "sealed". And this is otherwise called the "body of Christ". And, we are told in Galatians 3:28..."There is neither Jew nor Greek, NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE; for ye are ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS."

God is "no respecter of persons" (or which gender you are)....everybody is EQUAL in the "body of Christ". Therefore, the 144,000 includes everybody picked to be "sealed by God"....and it's matters not whether they are "male" or "female" as long as they are faithful to Jesus Christ and the Bible....and MATURING as Christians during their walk with God.

Having sex or not having sex has absolutely nothing to do with them....probably lots of them are MARRIED PEOPLE....and very few (if at all) married people remain virgins....or why get married at all?? I'm not too old to remember that one!

Arlene

For Michael...Perhaps you can understand this one which I just posted....

FOR FAIR USE AND EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES



There are some Christians who will not let go of the fact of the 144,000 in Revelation chapter 7 being "Jewish male virgins"....

This is one of the errors of Dispensationalism....an error in doctrine!


http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/12996-the-dispensationalist-144000-all-jewish-male-virgins/


Piece of the link article:

The Dispensationalist 144,000: All Jewish Male Virgins?

In Revelation 7: 4-8 John lists the tribes of Israel and says that 12,000 of the 144,000 come from each tribe. The dispensationalist teaching that these are all male Jewish virgins comes from Revelation 14: 4, "These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins."

The 144,000, however, are not ethnic Israel.. They are Israel reborn in Jesus Christ (John 3: 3-5) That the 144,000 are of Israel reborn in Christ is consistent with what the New Testament teaches. In view of what is taught in the New Testament about the identity of Israel reborn in Christ, it does not matter whether any particular member of the 144,000 began life as a Jew or as a Gentile. It does matter whether a member of the 144,000 is in false doctrines, or under the spirit of Anti-Christ (I John 2: 18-19). This means that a former Jew can become a member of the 144,000, but is one who has come out of all loyalty to the Old Covenant and to Talmudic Judaism.

"They which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins" would imply that having sex with a woman who is one's wife defiles a man, which contradicts Matthew 19: 5-6, and I Corinthians 7: 2-5. Both texts give permission to have sex in a marriage relationship and so a man having sex with his wife does not defile him. Something else is being said in Revelation 14: 4. It is a metaphoric statement. Revelation 17: 1-5 describes, in metaphoric form, a woman who represents false religion. The 144,000 are not all men and are not defiled by being a part of false religion, that is, being in false doctrines taught by men and not by Scripture. The consistent literalist system of Bible interpretation has led dispensationalists to be unable to understand what is being said about the 144,000.

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Arlene

Dear Mike,

I learned some time ago that there are those that believe they have the truth and talk a lot of talk about being Saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ YET they run the risk of being CURSED for that very hatred of the Jews. God knows who are the true Jews and a debate of when the word Jew was first used is NOT going to erase that which He said.

Genesis 12:3 tells us, "I will Bless those that bless Thee and Curse those that curse Thee." That is speaking of the legitimate off-spring from Abraham, who are the children of Promise and not of those born by the Concubines.

To never seem to get this sorted out is like committing "Spiritual Suicide"

I commend you for your huge effort to try to enlighten Arlene. I will no longer even discuss this subject with her. It is obvious she isn't searching for the truth but expects you to swallow the big lie that she has swallowed.

Gerlinda

For Gerlinda and Michael....

I am ASSUMING that you both know how to READ. But I'm not so sure that you UNDERSTAND what you are reading!!

The "blessing" and "cursing" of Genesis chapter 12 has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH JEWS. Jews didn't even EXIST at that time! Abraham was NOT A Jew...nor was Isaac, nor Jacob.

Genesis 12:2 says, "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing."

God was speaking to ABRAM, before he became Abraham.

Genesis 12:3 says, "And I will bless them that bless thee, (ABRAM/ABRAHAM)and curse him that curseth thee:(ABRAM/ABRAHAM) and in THEE shall ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED."

The BLESSING WAS FOR ABRAHAM, AND ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH who will eventually come from his PROMISED "SEED"...WHO IS JESUS CHRIST!! This is a blessing that will come to ALL WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST.

The "cursing" was for those who CURSE CHRISTIANS (those in Jesus Christ). Are you so sure by "cursing me" (a Christian) that you, yourselves, might receive that curse from God??? Think about that one!!

There is not ONE JEW within the next ten (10) BOOKS OF THE BIBLE!!

There is no "Jew" mentioned in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, and I Kings....

But WOW!! Somebody put "Jews" in II Kings 16:6:

"At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and DRAVE THE JEWS FROM ELATH: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day."

The FIRST time Jews are mentioned in the Bible, they are being driven out of some land. Do you suppose God "CURSED" the king of Syria for doing that?? That really must have made history!!! But, I don't read anything about it...anywhere!!

And Galatians 3:16 tells EXACTLY who the "Seed" of Abraham is:

"Now to ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED were the promises made. He saith not, And to SEEDS, as of many; (like the "Jews or fleshy descendents of Abraham) BUT AS OF ONE, And to thy SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST."

And how about Romans 9:8:

"That is, They which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH,(anyone NOT in Jesus Christ...including the unsaved Jews of today) these are NOT the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE (Christians) are counted for the seed."

I did not say that!! THE BIBLE SAYS THAT!! Any kid in the 4th grade could read this and understand what it says....why can't you?

And if you two see that you can't get me to believe your FALSE DOCTRINE, then stop posting arguments for everything I say!! Everyone knows you will "curse me for cursing the Jews" (which I really don't), so why do it?? You are just stirring up controversy and bad feelings...and that is not constructive for what Steven is trying to do.

I do not hate the Jews. I just don't believe that promises made to the Christian "church" (body of Christ) should be willingly given to the Jews. That's doing just what Esau did! You're giving your birthright (through Jesus Christ) to the Jews, in exchange for a "blessing" you believe you will get from God. YOU ARE SO WRONG!!

I will no longer respond to Mike's comments!! Nor Gerlinda's....who seems to "jump on the bandwagon" whenever ANYONE disagrees with me. Should your attitude change, or you finally see correct doctrine, then we can talk again. But not until then!!

Arlene

Posted for Reference King James Version


Please locate the word jew in the scripture below


Genesis 12

12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

10 And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.

15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.

16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.


KJV