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WE STARTED OUT BELIEVING IN A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE
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Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)


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The early Church fathers were pre trib


The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
more at url :)
Introduction

As more and more people embrace the doctrines of the Reformation, many of these people fail to discard the errors that some of the Reformers were unable to discover in their limited lifetimes. 

Many of the Covenant  Calvinists embrace the Roman Catholic ideology of amillennialism. Furthermore, many within this tradition, and even within the premillennial family, assert that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture did not develop until the 1800s. Such statements are terribly inaccurate. 

I agree with Dr. Tim Lahaye, Dr. Richard Mayhue, and Dr. Wayne Brindle when they state: "The timing of the rapture is not a cardinal doctrine that should divide God's people, but those who interpret the Bible literally find many strong reasons to believe that the rapture will be pre-tribulational" (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, 289).

No matter whether one believes in a pre-trib rapture or not, there are historical statements that verify that people have indeed believed this teaching before the 1800s.
The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial

It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

Papias (60-130)

Clement of Rome (90-100)

The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150) 

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

Barnabas (100)

The Didache (100-160)

Justin Martyr (110-165)

The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)

Irenaeus (120-202)

Tertullian (145-220)

Hippolytus (185-236)

Cyprian (200-250)

Lactantius (260-330)

From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."
This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort: 
"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.  
  

Re: The early Church fathers were pre trib

Excert from:


http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/v2/#bn-forum-1-1-3330765498/8549/911061/show

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THE MORE RECENT CHURCH





Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there never has been a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. ---The pre-trib rapture teaching is a British-American invention which is only about 180 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent). Some of our grandparents could have heard the pre-trib teaching for the very first time. -- It is a brand new teaching compared to the age of Christianity.



Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood,

---and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Wayne Grudem, Robert Gundry, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, John Piper, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more.

-- None of these above-noted Bible scholars who lived before the 1830s (& Edward Irving) even heard of a pre-tribulation rapture.



Currently --despite temporary widespread popular support in the USA during the 1970s through 90s for the Pre-tribulational Rapture position-- we now find that the tables have turned, as Dr. S. Lewis Johnson Jr. said (in about 1985): "posttribulationism is winning the battle against pretribulationism on the academic level." This means that most Evangelical scholars and Bible professors are coming to the post-tribulaional position. - (Dr. Johnson was a professor of New Testament and Greek at Dallas Theological Seminary for 28 years, and for 4 years at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago.)

-- These are not liberals, but solid Evangelical/Fundamental Bible scholars.



-- And furthermore, Kermit Zarley (an understudy of Dr. Johnson, and now an Evangelical Christian author) added in 2006 that among Evangelical Bible-believing scholars the "academic battle is pretty much over with, and posttribulationists have decisively won it."

(Ref: Zarley's website: http://stillherebooks.com/stillhere_explained.html).

-- However, it still remains for many Evangelical pastors and average churchgoers to catch up with the correct (and historic) Biblical teaching in this area.



As two examples of this latter group of academics, please see Chapter 54 and 55 in Dr. Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology --(arguably the best systematic theology written in the 20th century), where he espouses the post-tribulational position.

--And then take note of an article by Dr. John Piper.



---In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the glorious Second Coming (with the rapture) would happen at the end of that time ...just after the tribulation.



---But still, any teaching should stand or fall, not because of its antiquity, or a majority believing it (though the above numbers are weighty), but because it lines up with the truth of the Scriptures.



So, consider the following key New Testament word in this discussion:







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



THE "PAROUSIA": CHRIST'S GLORIOUS ARRIVAL TO EARTH



The New Testament was originally written in the ancient Greek language. The New Testament Greek word "Parousia" (pronounced pah-roo-SEE'-ah), when used concerning Christ, is a specialized or "technical term," since it speaks "nearly always of his Messianic advent in glory to judge the world at the end of the age" (Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich, p.635 - my emph.); in fact, 16 of the 17 usages are like this. A "technical" term has a more focused meaning (in the Bible) than the word might usually have in other writings. This word, "Parousia," was used by people in NT times to indicate the coming of a ruler who was just arriving at a city in order to be present with the people there. In English translations of the Bible, Christ's "Parousia" is usually translated as his "coming," but (as a technical term) it emphasizes and focuses on the idea of Christ's "glorious arrival" to earth in order to be physically "present" with people on earth as the divine judge. --Considering the verses which speak of Christ's Parousia, is highly informative on his Second Coming and the rapture.



Please locate the following verses in your own Bible, and note where this important word "Parousia" occurs in them ...usually translated as "coming."



In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen "at his Parousia" (at his glorious "coming" or arrival upon the earth). -- Then in 1 Thes. 4:14-17, where Paul describes the Parousia ("coming") of the Lord ( v.15 ), we read that the Parousia is the time of the saint's resurrection and rapture ( v.16,17 ). - Please write where this word occurs in your Bible, and review the meaning of the word in the context of those verses.

--From both of the above verses, it is very clear that the resurrection and the rapture of the saints (born again believers) is part of the Parousia event, as Christ arrives ("comes") in glory and power on the earth in order to be "present" on earth as the great Judge. That is the significance of the word "Parousia."



Adding to this concept, historically, we read: "When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis..." ( F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, 1970, p.1159 )(my emphasis).



In harmony with this arrival-picture, Paul states in 1Thess.4 that the resurrected and transformed saints will be caught up (raptured) to "meet (apentesis) the Lord in the air" ( v.17 ), in order to escort Christ on the last little portion of his arrival to earth at the Parousia, which is the glorious Second Coming. When some people suggest that Jesus will snatch these people away from the earth and then immediately leave and return to heaven, this does not fit with the arrival-picture portrayed by these two Greek words (parousia & apentesis), and the movement of an arriving dignitary these words portray.



"Parousia" is used in 1 Thess. 3:13 ---and it is because of Christ's catching up of believers into the air at the time of the Parousia ("coming"), followed by their meeting and escorting (apentesis) him as he finishes his arrival to earth, that Paul says the Parousia (coming & arrival) of our Lord Jesus is "with all his holy ones," as he descends to the earth. The saints are "with" him because they have just met (apentesis) him in the air as a result of the resurrection and rapture.



In 2 Thess. 2:8, Paul looks ahead to the end of the Great Tribulation as he mentions the destruction of the Antichrist "whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his Parousia (coming)." ...This verse clearly tells us that the Parousia (which includes the saint's resurrection and rapture) will be the powerful event of splendor and glory which will destroy the Antichrist at the end of the Great Tribulation. Jesus also depicts his Parousia as glorious and powerful: "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the Parousia of the Son of Man" ( Mat. 24:27 ). The Parousia will be gloriously visible to the whole world. It will not be quiet and secret. ---So, it is clear from all of this, that the reign and authority of Antichrist will extend right up to the end of the Great Tribulation, and his life will be ended by Christ's Parousia -- his glorious arrival on earth. --So, we must remember, that the Parousia is Christ's powerful and glorious Second Coming ---during which the rapture of believers will also occur.



One further note: We are told in James 5:7,8 to be patient and to stand firm as we wait "until the Lord's Parousia." James knew things would get tough for Christians before the Parousia, but it will be at the Parousia (Christ's coming and arrival upon the earth as Judge) that our relief (from persecution) will come. ---And so, as a result, John exhorts perseverance among believers who will be alive at the end: "dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his Parousia" ( 1 Jn. 2:28 ).



ANTICIPATING THE DAY OF THE LORD



The "Day of the Lord" in Scripture is that marvelous day to which all true believers should look forward, ...and even work to hasten its coming (2 Pet. 3:11-12). We look forward to it, because the "Day of the Lord" will be the day of our salvation ( 1 Thess. 5:2-9 ) and physical redemption of our bodies, when the Lord Jesus will be "revealed from heaven ...in flaming fire" (2Thess.5:7). ---The Day of the Lord will begin with the descent of the Lord at his Second Coming, and the Rapture (catching up) of all true blievers ( read 2Thess.2:1-8 & 1Thess. 4:15- 5:2 ), and it will extend right on through the 1000-year millennium (Joel 2:32- 3:1 & 3:16-21 ; and Zech.14). It is "the day" believers should look forward to in holy self-control and spiritual alertness ( 1 Thess. 5:2-8 ). ---So, why must we be so spiritually alert up until that "day"? Because we won't yet be glorified, but we'll still be struggling here on earth against our sinful flesh until that Day finally comes. But, we can be confident that the Lord will keep us strong "to the end" ( 1 Cor. 1:8 ), and blameless (in our spiritual "position") until "the Day" arrives, when all spiritual maturity will be completed in us ( Phlp. 1:6,10 ).



So, when will the "Day of the Lord" begin? The major key to pinpointing its start, is to look at the great heavenly portents (signs) that Jesus and Joel spoke of. These heavenly signs are : the darkening of the sun and moon, along with the "falling" of stars, and the "shaking" of other heavenly bodies. Jesus specifically said that these signs would follow "immediately after" the Great Tribulation (read Mat. 24:29), and Joel said that these same heavenly signs would occur just before the Day of the Lord ( see Joel 2:30-31 & 3:14-16 ).



---Placed in order, then, the Great Tribulation must be completed before these heavenly signs appear, and these same signs appear just before the Day of the Lord begins. Thus, the Great Tribulation comes before the Day of the Lord, with the heavenly portents inbetween. And as was demonstrated earlier, the Day of the Lord begins with the glorious Second Coming of Christ, along with the rapture; --and in fact, Jesus quite nicely describes the rapture (a catching up of the saints) as following those heavenly portents after the great tribulation ( Mat.24:30-31 ). Therefore, Christ's Second Coming, along with the rapture, cannot be imminent until these post-tribulational heavenly portents (signs) are occurring. Therefore, Paul says, "you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" ( v.4 ). Why not? ...Because the Scriptures give us the signs to look for just before "the Day" begins.



We also know the Parousia (with rapture) comes as part of the Day of the Lord, because in 2 Thess. 2:1-2 the normal flow of Paul's sentence moves smoothly and naturally from speaking of the Lord's Parousia (coming) and rapture ( "being gathered" ) in verse 1, right on to "the Day of the Lord" in verse 2, without a transition in thought. This shows us that in Paul's mind, the Parousia and the beginning of the Day of the Lord are linked right together as happening at the same time. Clearly, the Day of the Lord is "the" hopeful "day" of all believers' glorification and rapture ( 1 Cor. 15:50-52 ).







[ continued ]



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Zechariah 12:3,9:

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.






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Re: The early Church fathers were pre trib

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After the Tribulation











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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Ybic
Steven



Re: The early Church fathers were pre trib









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Re: The early Church fathers were pre trib

Greeting everyone,
This is great information and the research must have been very time consuming, but I beg you to please not base any beliefs on what men believe. I too love the teachings of LaHaye, Mayhue, and Brindle but they are only men and they make mistakes. I love the research you did with the early church, but with all the great things they did, it was the early church that gave us the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Do you really believe in a pre-trib rapture? Be honest now.... if you were standing on a trap door and it went directly to Hell if you gave the wrong answer, and your four choices were pre, mid, post, pre-wrath, or you could not answer and just step off the trap door, would you still say HONESTLY you believe in a pre-trib Rapture? My father (a minister for 44 yrs.) would tell a story of the tight rope artist walking across Niagara Falls with a wheel barrow and before he started he would start to work the crowd up " Do you believe I can do it?" "yes " they would scream and this repeated over and over each time he would put a brick or two in the wheel barrow. Finally he says "OK who will ride in the wheel barrow with me?" .......Silence of course was deafening and thus proving that sometimes we think we believe something but do we really? Any way you mentioned many sources including Papias 60-130 AD and Clement 90-100 AD but even Perter the Rock that our Masters Church was built on got into error and had to be corrected by Paul.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Let's make sure our beliefs are only based on Scripture and not man. It's ok to say I'm not sure. I would much rather be Spiritually prepared for a pre-wrath rapture and joyfully surprised with a pre-trib rapture than disappointed in a no pre-trib rapture and not prepared Spiritually for the persecution of the anti-Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Agape
Charles

Re: The early Church fathers were pre trib

Re: Early church "fathers" and rapture theory....


I took a piece of a Christian "blog" site that was quite good in this subject.

Perhaps we can all learn what the early Christian "fathers" believed and taught:




Did the early Church Fathers teach a rapture or a particular position of it?
13 03 2009


This has been a common source to prove one’s position regarding end-time scenarios. See what the early church taught and assume it must be fact since they were closer to the original source, Christ, and were not convoluted by centuries of theology. This is actually a good way to see what a theological position is and how it can be measured. The problem is, many do not actually read the early writings, and when one does, he/she does not always understand the language and word meanings and thus may make assumptions that are not there.

Concerning articles and pre-tribulation-ism claiming proof from early church sources. My goal is not to mock these ministry, but to point out a common error. I assume their hearts are in the right place, but may be misguided by faulty thinking and unsound research. This is the typical, sloppy scholarship that has penetrated the Church at large and deceived (or better put, “distracted”) and preoccupied many people with the wrong things.

This is what is called Isogesis, which means “to lead in” or “reading into” the sentence; in the Scriptures, it is inserting an opinion that is not there. An example would be to introduce into the text one’s own presuppositions, ideas, and thoughts…where the reader or Bible teacher seeks an answer to his opinion or position to be varied. Thus he/she looks for verification and finds a vague reference, then does not bother to do his/her homework to truly determine what is actually being said…

The question is, did the early Church Fathers teach rapture? The answer is a clear no! I diligently studied their writings trying to prove a rapture theory and I never found it. Did they teach that all Christians will escape the Tribulation through a gathering to the Lord, or that they would go through it? Either position is possible, but highly unlikely, as the context and subject of these quotes and others is off issue or on a different subject than the position being inserted into the text. Also, the terms used then are not the same as what we use today and thus we make assumptions that are not based on fact. In other words, we assume and do not check out the facts, and thus make a dogma out of speculations and nonsense; in so doing, we miss the main point of it all.


This is the classic quote that is often used for both positions:

The Shepherd of Hermas.

'You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly."



Is this evidence of pre-tribulation-ism and/or a rapture, or is it a pre-tribulation escape from the Tribulation? First, one needs to learn how to read, not a quip, but when we read, ask the question, what is it? What did that term or name mean then to the original author and audience, not what does it mean to me nearly two thousand years later, filtered with preconceived theological bias or a desire to prove some theory.

We also need to look at the context and word usages. The same is with the other quotes like Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren statements. They are not saying a rapture, but speculating what might happen with a view that is not in Scripture, but may have some distant semblance to modern speculations that are also not based on Scripture. And, if one did some basic research, they would find that Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren were quickly refuted by scholars who did their homework. (By the way, these issues are so minor it is absurd we argue about them. By doing so, we disservice our Lord and take the attention off what He has for us.)

The real issue in Revelation and what this quote in Hermas alludes to is all about loyalty. The author tells us what is important, to not doubt in the presence of such a beast (meaning to not lose faith or doubt because one’s circumstances are tough. Beast refers to your opposition by political force or personal sin or persecution).

Then, he states: prepare yourselves (meaning grow in faith), and repent (escape false thinking and embrace Christ as LORD) with all your heart, (make Christ first and foremost in one’s life) and turn to the Lord (lead your life as what Christ would have me do). This is about the continuing theme of our faith and allegiance, and about the contest and contrast of the mark of loyalty versus disloyalty. It refers to the loyalty of the faithful contrasting with the disloyalty of those who desire evil over the Way of God.

If we try to read into this an end-time scenario, we miss the main point and delude ourselves. Further, if we teach this nonsense, we distract people from what is really important. We become the false teacher so refuted by 2 Peter. Read Matthew 24 and see what our Lord said about this. The point here is that God sees and protects those who are His (Rev. 3:12; 7:3-8; 13:16; 14:1-1; 22:4).

The true question to us all is not what esoteric theory best suits us; rather, will our loyalty and faith be to ourselves and/or evil, being easily led by manipulations, or will our allegiance be to the Lord and marked by Christ? Will our faith be about Christ as LORD or will our time and energies be spent on gibberish, distracting us and others away from faith, obedience, spiritual maturity, character, and Fruit?

Our trust in Christ (salvation) is what delivers us and daily life with the choices we make. This is not about esoteric whims; rather, it is about the practice of faith and trust and obedience in harsh times while still being loyal to Christ. This is what the Revelation was telling those seven churches and what it is telling us now.

How would you contrast loyalty versus disloyalty in your faith? What about how your church is run? How do you display loyalty to God and others?

These are the real issues; when we make up these foolish inconsequential theories, we take our eyes off Christ and place them on ourselves or something worse….we end up serving Satan or becoming a false teacher and flutter for our redactors and opponents while we forget about our Living LORD!

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Good stuff! There is no evidence that the early church was looking to any "rapture". It all comes down to "Believe God and not men"...and you are believing what your Pastor says, and not God.

Arlene