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Hi Frank, welcome to the site, we all agree to disagree, but in love and edifying, not with division and dissention, if you cant back it up with scripture, you wont gain any ground.

You can learn much from elders who have revelation and experience in the word.


Romans 3:4

King James Version (KJV)


4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1 Timothy 1:4
KJV

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



1 Thessalonians 5

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.


Lets all work together scripturally and with love and respect for everyone.

AGAPE, BOB





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD

RE: Doctrine of eternal hell....fact or fiction


When I read ANYTHING, I also look up and read the references given within the text. Truthfully, I trust NOBODY until they have proven their trustworthiness.

So, I looked up the referred "Whence Eternity" by Alexander Thomson in hopes, if it was not very expensive, I could read it. And a pleasant surprise awaited me....IT WAS FREE AND AVAILABLE TO ALL! I might have known this, as a true Christian and lover of the Bible does not charge money for information which is vital to the rest of the "body of Christ".

So, I include this information with this posting as well:


http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity


Piece of the information within the link:

[I have "chopped it up" by putting in spaces for more readability]


There have always been some among the sects who have held harsh views regarding the doom of the sinner. The Pharisees and the Essenes are said to have believed in conscious future punishment. The Essenes believed in unintermittent (adialeipton) and "deathless" punishment.

It is natural for those in whose hearts the love of God has not been dynamically shed abroad to look upon death as the end of all for mankind. The truth of the eons became lost very quickly after the time of the apostle Paul. No one after him appears to say a word about it.

Even Origen believed that this present world or eon was the conclusion of many eons. He inferred that there are still many eons to come, not only two. On the other hand, there arose the Gnostic sects, one of which was that of the Valentinians, named after Valentine, a native of Egypt. They flourished in the second century. According to them, the original source of all existence was the abyss, out of which, when life was developed, sprang the eons, male and female, through whom God revealed Himself. These eons, along with God Himself, together made up the fullness or ploroma.

Matter they looked upon as evil, and the harmony of the ploroma had been upset by God's having come into contact with matter. In order to restore harmony, there was a new emanation of two eons, Christ and the Holy Spirit. At the conclusion of the world, Christ would introduce His Bride along with all the spiritual ones into the Fullness, and all matter, by which is evidently meant all evil, would return to its original nothingness.

Another sect taught that seven eons proceeded forth out from God. Eusebius says that Tatian also invented "some invisible eons like the Valentinians," but Tatian may have preserved some relics of primitive truth. Even in this darkness one can perceive glimmerings of the truth. God made the eons through His Son (Heb.1:2). God planned out the eons, and is now utilizing them as His scaffolding. The eons seem to synchronize with the presence of evil, when it requires to be coped with.

************

What fascinates me a lot is that someone, a while back had told me they believed in the "ploroma", but they could not define what it was (at least, to my satisfaction.) I had forgotten about this until now. Somehow, in some way, God will always give you answers for any questions you may have...if you have "eyes" to see them.

Arlene

seems to me you want to believe anything but the literal bible
stop reading stuff that disagrees with what scripture plainly states

All you need is your bible
If you are willing to come to God with an open heart he will reveal Himself to you
Then you will realize that everything he says is true
Then you will not need anyone ELSE to teach you what scripture says or means
In the presence of God you will realize that there is nothing He can not do
You will understand that He literaly can create the world in 6 days
You will understand that all the stories that you thought were alagorical are really true

And most of all he fogives those who are willing to believe and repent
It's either humble yourself and receive heaven
Or refuse to repent and receive hell
There is no middle ground

Re: Frank's request of me...

It's not anyone's place to tell me what to read or NOT what to read. But, I do appreciate your concern.

The words that you say are the SAME that I have heard from every "Pastor" in my history of going to a church building....every "Sunday" and Wednesday nights. I do believe they can't graduate from Theological College without having MEMORIZED that same speech.

But, it wasn't until I stopped that nasty habit of going to church....which, by the way, is "Mystery, Babylon" in Rev. 17 & 18)...that I finally began to learn truthful things from God, alone. See I John 2:27, if you can find the time.

And I suppose you think it's appropriate to "tithe" as well! But then, I'm assuming you are old enough to make your own decisions as am I. Do what you want, but I'll follow what the Bible says.

Thanks again for your concern....

Arlene

God really did create the world
He really knows what he is doing
The same God that created the world also watches over his word
His word is not contaminated by human reasoning
The heart that is willing to say I really don't know, God will enlighten
Then you will understand what you could not before with your human thinking
You are using human thinking to try to understand God on your own terms
Let go of your terms and God will enlighten you

Re: Bob....

If I haven't said so before, I'm saying it now: You are totally great! What a wonderful nature and understanding man you are! I would love to be more like you, and I'm trying (Steven is helping me)....but that's what we are....always growing, learning, and and changing what isn't quite right...yet!

And, at my age, I should be 90 ft. tall, and have a brain like Einstein instead of 5'5" and relatively smart. But I never got around to Emily Post (manners and etiquette), as I was always too busy helping sick people get well.

But then, as my class motto said (carved into that stone, way back when), "Please be patient; God isn't finished with me, yet."

Thanks for affirming there are some men in this world who are treasures, still.

Arlene

Hi Arlene, thank you as well for your wonderful posts, I have and will continue to learn and reap great revelation and knowledge from your years and the WISDOM behind your words, no one has it all figured out, but if we work together, we will get there.
Looking forward to more great posts Arlene.

Agape, Bob

are you kidding me
back up the reality of hell with scripture
what bible are you reading?
obviously no gate keeper here

RE: Franks not-very-nice comment....


If you would actually READ something that is posted BEFORE you complain that it's "NOT BIBLICAL", then maybe you might learn something. The guidelines of this website include....READING ALL THE MATERIAL POSTED (which you DID NOT), and THEN, if you have a problem with it, BE SPECIFIC, INCLUDING BIBLE VERSES THAT BACK UP WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

But DO NOT complain or accuse ANYONE of not being a "Christian" just because you don't agree with something they may post, or say to you. And try to be CONSTRUCTIVE AND KIND in your remarks. Nasty comments only cause angry feelings. Steven puts up with a LOT...but he will put the hammer down if we don't ACT like adults, who are supposed to be Bible believers. We should NOT play a children's game of "I know more than you know...ha, ha, ha!! We should be WAY past that....

Nobody here knows everything, and most of us here need to learn a LOT! Comments are great when they are constructive. But nobody learns ANYTHING when they are too busy criticizing something, or someone, when they haven't even read the material COMPLETELY. Take notes...then make comments on your notes, using scripture to back up what you are saying.

The MAIN REASON most Christians don't know their "derriere" from their elbow joint is that they have been indoctrinated by DENOMINATIONS for most of their Christian lives. God ABHORS denominations...ALL OF THEM!! They are ALL WRONG...because they are ALL split off from the "ONE BODY of CHRIST". And God HATES "Nicolaitans"...(Rev.2:6)....those are people who listen to pastors in churches instead of learning from their own Bibles. That word means "POWER OVER THE LAITY"....and God wants us to have nothing to do with it!!

I KNOW YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE MATERIAL BECAUSE IT'S LOADEDWITH BIBLE VERSES IN EXPLANATION, BACKING UP EVERYTHING HE HAS SAID.


Scripture back up for what the Bible actually says in just ONE SMALL PART:...Piece of the article....


JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD

Over the years I have gleaned hundreds of Scriptures that speak of God's plan to save all humanity, whereas Christendom has not one Scripture to back up their evil doctrine of fear and hopelessness in some Christian hellhole of never-ending torture - in fire.

Here are several Scriptures that give us God's Master Plan in just one sentence. It's time we grow up and search the Scriptures for ourselves and stop putting our faith in men. Here are some profound Scriptures which the Church contends will never, ever be accomplished by God:

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save "the world"? NO!


"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS; of whom I am chief" [Gk: foremost--paramount, preeminent]" (I Tim. 1:15)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save all "sinners?" NO!


"For the Son of man is come to seek and to SAVE that which was LOST [that's everyone]" (Luke 19:10)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will save all who are "lost?" NO!


"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto Him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will take away the "sin of the world?" NO!


And He is the propitiation [to atone for, conciliate, look upon with mercy and favor] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2)! I teach this, but does the Church teach that Jesus will atone for the "sins of the world--the WHOLE world?" NO!


"God our Saviour Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:3-4). I teach this, but does the Church teach that God will have "ALL men to be saved?" NO!


"The Lord is... not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (II Peter 3:9). I teach this, but does the Church teach that the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that ALL should repent, therefore, none will perish and all will repent? NO!


"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially ['specially' does not mean 'exclusively' or 'only'] of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10). I teach this, but does the Church teach that God is not only the Saviour of those that believe, but ultimately "God is the Saviour of ALL men?" NO!


"...I came not to judge the world, but to SAVE the world" (John 12:47). I teach this, but does the Church teach Jesus will actually accomplish what He came to accomplish - "to SAVE THE WORLD?" NO!


"...we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (John 4:42). I teach this, but does the Church teach that the One to Whom they give lip service "is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD?" NO, it does NOT!

How many ... how MANY Scriptures must you read and see in your own Bible before you will believe that God commissioned His Son to be the Saviour of the world and that Jesus WILL SAVE THE WORLD?

These ten Scriptures are not wrongly translated, however, every single Bible verse which uses the word "hell" along with "forever and ever," "everlasting," "evermore," and "eternal," is wrongly translated, and this is relatively easy to study and prove to one's own satisfaction.

Virtually all clergyman in all Christendom teach:

Jesus will NOT "be the Saviour of the world," but rather Saviour of only a few

Jesus will NOT "save [all] sinners," but only a few

Jesus will NOT "save [all] that which was lost," but only a few that are lost

Jesus will NOT "take away the sin of the world," but only of a few

Jesus will NOT "have all men to be saved," but only a few men

Jesus will NOT be that "Lord [which is] "not willing that any should perish," but He WILL be that Lord which will actively participate in eternally torturing those who have perished

Jesus is NOT "the Saviour of all men," but is the Saviour "of those that believe," only

Jesus' Own words "I came NOT to judge the world, but to save the world" will never happen

Jesus is NOT "indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

And just why is it that the Church will not teach these astonishing declarations of God, that the whole world will be saved - that all mankind will be saved? Is it because they have never read those ten Scriptures or the dozens and dozens like them? No. Well why then? Are you ready for this? The reason is that they don't want the whole world (all mankind) to be saved: they don't approve of God's plan for the salvation of all mankind. They want to be special, and they don't want their enemies to be saved unless they come under the control and authority of the Church.

**************

Plain enough for you? Find scriptures to refute the above, and you will have proved your point.

And try being a little nicer next time. At least that's what Steven tells me when I get a little out of line. Ignorance repeated over and over is like "lighting my fuse". And I usually confront this with a sense of humor as well. We ALL have learning to do...and at this site, it is encouraged. As long as we don't slap each other down at every turn. A LEGITIMATE, CONSTRUCTIVE complaint is a good thing. It corrects errors. But reasons why have to be shown as well...."chapter and verse" examples.

Arlene

Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Hmmm! That sounds like FEW will find eternal life, not many!

Kevin

Re: Kevin....

Did you not read Revelation 22:18..."...."If any man shall ADD unto these things, God shall ADD unto him the plagues that are written in this book:..."

You have ADDED the word "eternal" before the word "life". Read what you wrote!! That's a perfect example of ADDING SOMETHING TO SCRIPTURE that is not specifically stated there.

Not a good thing to do in any case....

And try doing a word study on "destruction" because it does not mean "hell".

As a matter of fact, do a WORD STUDY on the word "hell"...that's a great way to determine what you are talking about. If you don't know that, then you can't POSSIBLY KNOW what you are even implying....

Trying to speak about something of which you know NOTHING is called "IGNORANCE"...at least that's the definition of that word.

I have done studies on all these things for a very long time...so I do have a solid foundation upon which I build my beliefs. Do you? Or do you just regurgitate what you hear from a pulpit?

It really amazes me that so many Christians, who claim to TRULY LOVE God, believe that AFTER Jesus Christ shed His precious blood for the WHOLE WORLD (John 3:16), that our loving, merciful, all-knowing, omnipotent Father in heaven, who created us all from the purest of love in His heart....would send 90% of His creation to "burn in hell forever"....

(and that's billions, and billions, and billions...etc. of people)

THAT'S NOT MERCY...AND THAT'S NOT LOVE!

I just don't buy it! And that's NOT what God is "selling" in the Bible, either. But then, you will understand this one day as well....


Have a wonderful day!!

Arlene

Arlene,
Here is the Strong's concordance definition of Life as it is in the passage of scripture I referred to:


Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) life
a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
b) every living soul
2) life
a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature
b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.

Here is the concordance definition of the word Destruction in the passage:

Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Well, it looks like Destruction can absolutely mean eternal misery in hell. What else would Jesus be referring to? What would he be referring to when spoke of Life? All the way through the gospels, Jesus spoke about Life in spiritual terms. That is what we look forward to since Jesus saved us from eternal torment and gave us the gift of eternal life. If this passage doesn't mean what it seems to mean, then what does it mean?

Also, God does not send people to eternal torment. Everyone has the choice to reject or believe on Jesus Christ for salvation! Those who reject his gift of salvation will send themselves to hell. It is not something God desires, but it is a choice for everyone to make. Sadly, most people I know either don't believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, or they blaspheme his name by using his name as a curse word.

Kevin

RE: Kevin...

I think it's great that you are starting to read and looking things up. That's a good thing!

You are trying so hard to prove your point....albeit, unsuccessfully, I'm afraid. But, I really appreciate effort and hard work. I've already been where you are now, so I do understand you. And you'll get over it just as I did...fighting and kicking against the truth until it hits you in the heart and spirit of your being.

And it's amazing when you finally do.....such joy!!

Keep on studying...but try more from the Bible for a change. When you do, the Holy Spirit of God will lead you to discover truths you never could see in the past without Him....

Have a great evening!!

Arlene