Arlene,

You mentioned in your reply to Mike P. :

Why do you say you can't "compete with mind readers"?? You are trying to tell me something that is NOT IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION, and that's what was being discussed! You tell me to go back to the OT to determine who are the 144,000. Why? The Tribes in the OT ALWAYS begin with REUBEN. But the Tribes in Revelation chapter 7 begin with JUDAH. There has to be a reason for this....and there is. It's speaking of "Spiritual Israel" (those "circumcised in the heart"...Romans 2:29).
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Yes, there is a reason that Reuben was replaced by Judah. Reuben was the eldest son of Jacob and as First-born would receive a double portion of the father's inheritance and the leadership role.

But, Reuben defiled his father's bed when he let his unbridled passion for his father's concubine, Bilhah resulted in the sin of adultery within his own father's household. For over 20 years, Jacob (now Israel) said nothing even though he knew of the deed) On his deathbed Israel had these words to say to that son, "He went up to my couch...." Genesis 35:22. Also Reuben was called "unstable as water". I Chronicles 5:1-3 Judah prevailed above his brethren and of him came the prince; BUT the birthright was Joseph's.

There Arlene is where this change was made and also explains to us why there are the two sticks mentioned. The Lord said that those two sticks would one day become one and here in these End Days, we see that God's Word is true. Those that split into the Northern Tribes had the birthright BUT it would be Judah of the Southern Tribe out of which would come the Prince, The Saviour.

So, Joseph's son's got the largest portion of the Land but their jealously was always against Judah because it brought forth the Regal lineage.

And yes, Levi is Levi and Benjamin is Benjamin who dwell in the area given to Judah; pure and simple and which has nothing to do with why Reuben is listed first in Genesis and then replaced by Judah all within the OT history of the tribes. It set the stage (so to speak) for where we are today concerning the Nation of Israel. That happened long before the Book of Revelation.

Yes, we become Spiritual Jews when we accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour. He came to the Jew first and then the Gentile. No one can come to the Father but through Him.

Israel even alludes to the fact that the A/C will come out of the Tribe of Dan who mixed with the Assyerians, Romans and also are of the Seed of Satan. But, that is another story out of the history of the OT that sees it's fulfillment in the NT.

So, you can see why there must be a Land of Israel where this "family feud" will finally be dealt with by Jesus Christ Himself.

gerlinda

Gerlinda....

You have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING of what God tells us in I Corinthians 15:46:

"Howbeit that was NOT FIRST WHICH IS SPIRITUAL, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

Get it? FIRST = NATURAL (Old Testament)
AFTERWARD = SPIRITUAL (New Testament)

Old Testament = natural examples....NATURAL REALM (fleshy)
New Testament = natural examples fulfilled SPIRITUALLY....SPIRITUAL REALM

Fleshy things are not a part of God's Kingdom, because it is a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM. It can't be seen, felt, or heard...and it's WITHIN US. Jesus said so, and I believe Him.....I have FAITH!

This goes along with what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:12:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, HOW SHALL YE BELIEVE, IF I TELL YOU OF HEAVENLY THINGS?

In the OT, God has given us "natural" examples of believers' journey through the wilderness and the problems they had...and much more. These stories are told to us to explain what is going to happen to "SPIRITUAL Israel" (THE BODY OF CHRIST) in the New Testament. We have to see things with "spiritual" eyes. Our "natural" eyes don't see them.

However, your problem is you don't believe me because you have NO UNDERSTANDING of "spiritual" things. I certainly hope you have even a slight knowledge of "spiritual Israel"...Romans 2:29 (and other places). It no longer counts with God to just have a "fleshy" circumcision (penile). Circumcision is a "spiritual" one of the heart. IT'S AN UNSEEN THING.

Remember the definition of FAITH in Hebrews 11:1:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN.

Faith is SEEING nothing....and yet believing what the Bible says in spite of the fact of NO EVIDENCE of it. A "natural" circumcision, you can "SEE"...but a "spiritual" circumcision of the heart is UNSEEN. You just have to believe it because GOD said it!!

We can't make up things just to fit them into our philosophy. The Bible is actually quite simple when the Holy Spirit opens the "spiritual" vision in understanding.


Those "sealed" in Revelation chapter 7 are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL....AND THEY ARE HEADED BY JESUS CHRIST. That is why the names BEGIN with the Tribe of Judah instead of Reuben. JESUS CHRIST IS THE "FIRSTBORN" OF "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL". He is the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (Rev.5:5)

Jesus is a "LAMB" and He is also a "LION"....but these things are only SPIRITUAL (as to His nature). We don't actually "see" a "Lamb" and a "Lion"....but we BELIEVE HE IS. We don't actually "see" "Spiritual Israel", but we are. WE ARE BECAUSE GOD TOLD US WE ARE...even though we can't see it (or maybe understand it totally). FAITH IS UNSEEN BELIEF!

If you knew "spiritual" things, it would be clear to you.

Arlene