Yes Arlene, As One Jew said to another, 'If we are the Chosen People, we sure wish He would choose someone else." The more we learn, the less we know. You brought up many solid points and so did others, not all of us may ever get the whole route of these Stiff Neck people recordeded correct. It hasn't been easy road to travel. since being set aside through whom the messia would be born and persaverance of God Word recorded for all man-kind but I think we can say it has been rough enough they'd love to hand over the "Chosen" label to a Texians. They know what is ahead and don't relish it a bit And, aren't we so thankful that His Loves is measured way above our own expectations and you are right, He has to have a good sense of humor.

Out time is so short to do our jobs He has for us to do, so let's not rob ourselfves of the precious energy it takes to do it by beating this old subject to death. We appreciate all of His Grace. With Christian Love,

gerlind

Hi Gerlinda...Yes, you are absolutely right that sometimes it seems tiring to "beat this subject to death", as you said.

However, I still maintain that it is impossible to determine correct doctrine until one knows who the "Israel of God" (Gal.6:16) actually is. As long as Christians maintain it is the Jews, they will be very wrong in supporting this present nation of Israel instead of trying to convert as many unbelievers (including the Jews) as possible.

If a person doesn't know WHO God is referring to in the WHOLE of the bible, then how can anyone know how it is going to end? People who believe the Tribulation is for the Jews because God will be turning back to them after He finishes with the Church era, are in great error.

God does not go from "natural" (OT) to "spiritual" (NT) and than return back to the "natural" again....read I Cor.15:44-46. Israel (believers) in the OT were the "natural" example of what is made "spiritual" in the NT. Jesus tried to tell the Jews who He was, but they wouldn't listen to Him.

So, He gave them up to their deceptions, and He turned to the Gentiles to be saved after that. Gentiles are all the rest of the nations of the world...everyone! Once they become saved, they become the "Israel of God" or "spiritual Jews". If you read Acts 28:26-28, it clearly says just that. God is now trying to reach the whole world now with the Gospel through us.

He has not turned His back on the Jews forever. But now they are also included in the rest of the world who need salvation through Him. There are no special people now other than ones who are "in Christ" through our Lord Jesus.

And now, near the end, there is NOWHERE in the bible which indicates that God is going to turn back to the Jews AGAIN. Scoffield really messed a lot of people up....and I know that because I was one of them for many years until I finally learned the truth.

But, I thank you for at least reading what I have tried to say. I may lose more friends through what I believe, but I can't turn from the truth of God for any compromise. Just maybe, one or two people out there have heard and understand. I can live with that!

Arlene

You spew GRAVE ERROR, ARLENE, and will be accountable for every false word that proceeds from your lips.

Fair Use For Discussion Purposes

Clear signs that God has not turned his back on Israel and that the Jews ARE God's Chosen People:

"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 31 v 35 - 37

In the above passage God is saying that he will not remove Israel from being a nation despite "all that they have done". The reference to "all that they have done" is concerning the sins of Israel, because they turned away from God and followed after their own ways. The fact that this passage specifically mentions Israel as a nation indicates that this is clearly written about the people of Israel, not a spiritual/allegorical reference to Christians.

It was written in the books of the law, given to Israel at the time of Moses, that if Israel should forsake God and disregard his law he would cause calamities to come upon them:

"And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savor of your sweet odors. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them." -- Leviticus 26 v 31 - 39

The above passage sums up quite accurately what has happened to the Jews, even to the scattering of the Jews among their enemies. We can see clearly that God has acted true to his word, having punished his people for turning away from him. This is not the end of the matter though. It continues:

"And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD." -- Leviticus 26 v 44 - 45

It is clear that the words in this chapter are not allegorical, but a literal word from God concerning how he will treat Israel. Not once does God mention in the Bible that he will ever completely cast away the Jews, but many times he mentions that he will uphold his covenant.

"And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;" -- Deuteronomy 4 v 27-30

In the same paragraph above we read that God will scatter Israel among the nations because of their sins, but that even in the latter days he will not cast them off, and if they seek him they will find him. The 'latter days' and 'tribulation' refer to the end times, the last days before the final judgment day of God. It is clear that God is saying that he will not even give up on Israel in the last days. This goes completely against Replacement Theology.

Even in the New Testament, which was written by Christians, we find clear, unambiguous evidence that the Jews have not been rejected as God's people. The apostle Paul wrote:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." -- Romans 11 v 1

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway." -- Romans 11 v 8-10

The terrible times the Jews have been through is a punishment, or 'recompense' as David is quoted as saying above, because they turned away from God.

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." -- Romans 11 v 11

Through Christ's death, for the first time Gentiles (non-Jews) could find salvation. The salvation of the Gentiles was mentioned many times in the Old Testament. A prophecy concerning Christ by the prophet Isaiah reads:

"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." -- Isaiah 49 v 6

Looking back to the Apostle Paul Writing to gentile Christians, he continues:

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" -- Romans 11 v 17 - 24

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." -- Romans 11 v 25

Here we clearly read that God still has a plan for the Jews. While they are yet blind as to the salvation that is through Christ, God will turn their hearts to him after "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" -- which refers to the spreading of the gospel throughout the gentile world. The fact that Paul uses the word 'mystery' concerning this issue makes it clear that it was not widely understood -- the same of which can be said today.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." -- Romans 11 v 26-27

The book of Ezekiel contains a prophecy about the latter days, where God supernaturally saves the Jews from the countries attacking it, and how he shall forgive them. It confirms that the terrible things the Jews have faced have been a punishment, and that God shall have mercy upon Israel:

"And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD." -- (Ezekiel 39 v 21-29).

http://www.drydeadfish.co.uk/has_god_forgotten_the_jews/

Well, Paul....

I wish that I could say "Thank you for your kind words of wisdom and encouragement from another Christian", and then accept your criticism of me as CONSTRUCTIVE, rather than DESTRUCTIVE. But your first words to me are ones that show complete disdain and venomous animosity.

I wanted you to know that I read your words with a heavy heart. Are Christians supposed to do that to each other? So, I'm only going to reply to you in the words of God from His Book:

Matthew 7:3.."(words of Jesus) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye."

I Peter 3:16..."Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that FALSELY accuse your good conversation in Christ."

II Timothy 3:3..."Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good...(vs.7) Ever hearing, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

James 3:8..."But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."

James 1:26..."If any man among you SEEM TO BE RELIGIOUS, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

Titus 3:2..."To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men."

Colossians 4:6..."Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."


Those are just a few from the New Testament...so we'll see what Proverbs tell us, which are words of wisdom for us to follow daily in our lives. I'll just pull out one or two which come to my mind:


Proverbs 15:28..."The heart of the righteous studieth to answer; but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things."

Proverbs 25:23,,"The north wind driveth away rain; so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue."

Proverbs 17:27-28..."He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit. (28) Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."


These are not my own opinions of your words to me...they are God's words in telling us how to speak to each other. It might be a good idea to learn them for future lessons in how you should speak.

In Christian love,

Arlene

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