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Post-Trib Pre-Wrath Rapture in John 6 (Jesus Walking on the Sea)






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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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Steven

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I knew there was an answer. The RIGHT answer in science is always a Simple and Brilliant one. Here we have it or the makings of it. The insight coming out of this presentation is the quality of my A+ college undergraduate and graduate work (not the quality of my lesser achievements). Things have gotten much clearer now and we can agree on a scenario which fits many, most or all of the biblical passages. The books are being opened which were sealed unto the end times.

Earlier today (4/25/13) after being led back to this site (rapturebibleprophecy.com forum), I was listening to a talk posted by Steven by Robert Van Kampen (part 1) where he stated an indisputable position that the "rapture" would occur before the wrath of God was poured out. Although very fair, reasonable and appearing accurate, it gave us no idea of the time frame of the rapture with respect to other events than the Wrath of God, which is an event which was not clear to me and others what constituted the wrath of God.

From my prior research, I found one passage that placed the "rapture" in a sequence of events, which is the very familiar passage to many of us:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

AT THE LAST TRUMP.

Now how can this be.
Sure the last trump in Revelation 11 is:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Thus we see the following passages fit:
1) John 6 sea miracle picture where aprox half way into the journey the disciples in their ship are taken to the destination immediately (without the passage of time).
2) God is light. Believers who seek the truth must not be simple minded and ignore the scientists and those who have done real research either in archeology, anthropology or physics. We ALL KNOW of the guy who had a theory about light but maybe we do not all understand the theory. We ALL (figuratively speaking) KNOW what the name of his theory is: RELATIVITY. Time is relative and is a function of the velocity of the observer. This suggests that time stands still when one is moving at the speed of light relative to "non moving" objects. Thus it might be suggested that the disciples moved instantly. If this is a picture of end time events, the days were certainly shortened for those caught up in the tinkling of an eye near the middle of the 70th week, since they traveling at or near the speed of light (God is light and time does not pass for him in the eternal now) until they "return" at the end of the 70th week.

[Time dilation: The time lapse between two events is not invariant from one observer to another, but is dependent on the relative speeds of the observers' reference frames (e.g., the twin paradox which concerns a twin who flies off in a spaceship traveling near the speed of light and returns to discover that his or her twin sibling has aged much more).]
3) The two witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years which is into half of the 70th week, if indeed they begin their prophecy at the beginning -- at the signing of the Peace Treaty, initiation of sacrifice etc. This puts the "rapture" of the two witnesses at near simultaneous with the "rapture" of I Cor 15:52.

Rev. 11:
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

(notice: That these raptured folks escape to the end of the "great tribulation" and immediately (from their relativistic perspective) see "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of ..."

4) Thus the "rapture" appears to occur both at the beginning and end of the last 3.5 years of the 70th week and the time of great tribulation is a flash for them, so to speak.
5) "We will all be changed" clearly moving at the speed of light may be consistent with a significant change which we will have to consider in more detail at a later date.
6) This places the "rapture" at mid-trib and post trib. Both are true but not mutually exclusive (see Albert Einstein and Relativity of simultaneity:
Two events happening in two different locations that occur simultaneously in the reference frame of one inertial observer, may occur non-simultaneously in the reference frame of another inertial observer (lack of absolute simultaneity).
7) The "come up hither" in Rev. 4 in conjunction to the same phrase in Rev. 10 occur at the same time. The pretrib foolish assumption that the Rev 4 passage and lack of mention of the church later in Revelation suggests strongly that they are raptured before the "events of Revelation" after chapter 4.
8) ... well, It's late now and I can list some more items later !

But it seems to be a trump of finality since other ending events occur at the same trump.

Prior to this I have had only glimpses of light. Tonight the light came on and I now understand how these passages fit. The puzzle is being solved at this moment, for me ! Maybe just with the fitting of a few pieces together giving us a small glimpse of he entire puzzle picture.

It's nice now to have an idea of what to expect so we can better prepare. Loving the knowledge of the truth and abhoring falsehood of religion, ignorant pretribulationism and any theory which poses anomalies and thus does not fit with all of scripture, for Behold I come in the volume of the book it is written. He is coming as it was stated in the entirety of scripture without any anomalies. All the passages correctly speak about the same sxenario of events. We must understand them all together, in agreement for IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN.

Let the simple be simple still, and let the unjust be unjust still. Remember to tell no man this insight... well, at least do not cast pearls before swine. People need to be ready to escape their own Belief Systems and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Those who have presented and pushed the pretribulation rapture private interpretation have misused and mishandled the scriptures and it is totally disgusting to me and has been ever since I realized some time ago that (1) the scripture never says anywhere that there would be a pretribulation rapture and (2) 2 Cor. 15:52 and Rev. 10:11-15 are simultaneous events (last trumpet) which is inconsistent with the rapture at the beginning of the 70th week.
Thus it shows me that proponents of this false doctrine have very low character and are "warriors in the face of God", the sons of Nimrod, unless they repent.

So, for your next assignment, we can challenge another foolish churchianity doctrine of non-thinking pew sitters regarding the meaning of the 6 day creation, the multiple anomalies posed by a simplistic interpretation and the lack of understanding of the timelessness of God in the eternal now since he is light and understands and abides by what was discovered by Einstein in his theory of the relativity of time, space and motion. Hopefully now the scientists can see that the bible is not a bunch of foolishness but fits in with their honest facts about the universe. It is all one, God is all and in all. He's just not in everyone's heads and hearts if they are willing to adopt their own Belief System apart from God, and set themselves up as God. Let God be true and every man a liar.
So, let's just TRY TO THINK A BIT DEEPER THAN 1 MICRON !! FOLKS ! Realize first that we do not know the hell about what we are talking about and open our mind to learn something. Thanks.

Don't worry, folks, there are some other stupid church doctrines I would like to address in the future, but we first have to open up a bit and see the brilliance of this pastor's message about the Furlong and how it fits with relativity theory and the question we have been banging around for years, namely, what is the timing of this "rapture" event and how does it fit with all prophecies ! What the heck do the biblical prophecies mean in total, when will the books be opened (close up and seal the words of this prophecy until the time of the end), and then how do we reconcile the FACTS the scientists have come up with to the statements of scripture (i.e., what are we missing by our limited, simple-minded interpretation, or really worse -- what are we missing by listening to idiots who have proposed that they understand Genesis and how old the earth is and what civilizations did or did not exist over time on the earth). Yes, folks, we have to burst some of your other BUBBLES ! It's high time to wake up. So let's lay the foundation to press ahead and question our ASSuMptions.

-[related]-


posted for convenience ---

FOR FAIR USE EDUCATION AND DISCUSSION PURPOSES




The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 1 of 3





and the rest of the story


The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 2 of 3




The Biblical Defense for the Prewrath Rapture of the Church 3 of 3

That was a fascinating post!!! I am pretty much in agreement with Steven on the pre-wrath concept of the end-times. I don't see anything in the Book of Revelation on 7 years. There are references to the last days, but they are 42 months, 1260 days, and "time, times and half a time"...

But, I would love to hear where a "peace treaty" comes into the mix. It seems that lots of Christians are waiting for this one to happen so they can say "Bingo!"....now we have only 3 1/2 years to do until the Second Coming.

Some say it comes from Daniel 9:27 which says "he shall confirm the covenant for many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,..." etc. By the antecedent noun to the pronoun "he"....this is speaking of JESUS CHRIST, and not (who some say) the "man of sin" in II Thess.2:3.

The clarifying verse in the NT is Galatians 3:17.." And this I say, that the COVENANT THAT WAS CONFIRMED before OF GOD IN CHRIST,...."etc.

The problem with many of us...including me...is we make too much assumption of others being correct rather than figuring the truth out for ourselves...and what this does is make this word split, ASS/U/ME, to be correct. At least that's what is said by those a lot smarter than I am.

Again, I enjoyed your post..

Arlene

The question I addressed is "When in the sequence of events does the 'rapture' occur". Saying that it occurs before the wrath of God is poured out is interesting, but not at all specific if one does not show when the wrath of God is poured out. Again, we consider a linear time chronology which is not valid if events are viewed from different frames of reference (see Albert Einstein, Relativity Theory).

There are a few errors I would like to point out in the posted videos by both speakers.
1) the first states that those who do not accept the mark will be beheaded because they do not receive the mark. I find no scripture that says this.
2) The second video speaker (Robert VK) makes a number of questionable statements including the the first half of Daniel's 70th week equates to the birth pangs mentioned by Christ.

I was more impressed and enlightened by what the first speaker said but not what the second speaker, Van Kampen, had to say.

Furthermore, a common assumption is that "the antichrist" is meant by numerous passages which do not mention the antichrist. This is because an association in the mind is made between a word or phrase or title (beast, man of sin etc) and "the antichrist". Hence "the antichrist" is a term which lumps a number of beings together as the same entity, while they may no be. So I see a bad assumption pervading what I will call "off the cuff" eschatology banter or rhetoric. It is not an honest and sincere approach toward understanding the scriptures and is really very obvious when we see someone making such unfounded statements and stretches of logic. This is the same type of Lodge-Jerk we see on media reports in the "news". It ends up being a big deception and clouding of the truth which might otherwise be perceived -- Hiding the truth.

An interesting article about Robert Van Kampen is posted at:
www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html
which ends with some silly assumption support for a pre-trib rapture.
Basically, it's another example of folks who try to discredit someone else's view when it differs from their strongly held view, rather than seeking THE TRUTH. But it presents some interesting stuff.

Remember,

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just thought I would emphasis this point.


It's easy to discredit someone if they have a different viewpoint.

I have seen countless times personally when a person holds the Pre Tribulation Rapture view point they cry about how they are constantly attacked etc.....how persecuted they are ......but the truth of the matter is that the 'door swings both ways' I have been personally attacked numerous times when sharing a different point to a person with the Pre Tribulation view point.

Name calling......pointing fingers really is not edifying and does not lead to the truth........

Dave Wrote:

On more than ONE occasion I tried to suggest a book by Marvin Rosenthal



http://www.amazon.com/Prewrath-Rapture-Church-Marvin-Rosenthal/dp/0840731604/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367006018&sr=8-1&keywords=marvin+rosenthal+prewrath


One of the people said: " oh .....you can't believe him ....he is discredited"....


I asked how did you come to this conclusion?

The person said: 'oh I read it somewhere, I don't remember where"

They finally admitted they read the information on a PRE TRIBULATION site.

My suggestion, recommendation is to :

Pray for God through the HOLY SPIRIT to teach you all things.

Do not rely on man.

John 14:25-27

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
KJV



God Bless


Steven


By the way : Thank you Dave and Arlene for your contributions, comments and insight on this Thread.

I have seen countless times personally when a person holds the Pre Tribulation Rapture view point they cry about how they are constantly attacked etc.....how persecuted they are ......

I havn't seen pre tribbers crying out about being attacked and persecuted, but I do see them being attacked and persecuted, often.

Cheers

Hi John,


Try having a Pre trib...Mid trib...Pre Wrath and Post Trib website!

lol


Oh just for everyone to KNOW...I believed in Pre tribulation for 10 years.....


Once I started opening the bible and reading it alone with prayer and seeking the LORD alone did I find that the

Pre Wrath position is more biblically accurate.


One more point.

I have been in ministry and have been on missions trips etc......I have been in contact with thousands of Christians personally ( I attended a 10,000 ( ten thousand member church in San Diego ) .....so I'm not just saying that my sampling is NOT from a few people....


I have been a counselor in the church, a altar call leader, a prayer ministry leader....a teacher in the class room of hermeneutic, Book of Romans, Christian foundations for new believers, Street witnessing and outreaches with 100's of other churches....to name a few of the ministries I have been active......a few others but I hope you see I am not speaking from a small bubble but have been exposed to many....and PERSONALLY I have seen many PRE TRIBULATION believers attack with arrogance those that do not believe as they do.

So from MY personal experience.......yes "the door swings both ways".

I'm sure everyone has their own personal experience. I will not argue that point but MY experience is TRUE for me.


God Bless


Steven

Steven
When do you think God's wrath starts?
Is it when Christ returns on the white horse in Revelation 19?
Just a short answer please, I don't read many long posts.
Concentration not what it once was.

Hi John,

You want a short answer?

Please don't critique my answer then ok?

Anywhere between the mid point of the tribulation to the end of the tribulation before God's Wrath is poured out. ( Short answer )

That is my answer for now...( still reading a few more books on my list ) but that is my answer for now.

God Bless

Steven

I,m not sure either, it's around the sixth seal, but when is the sixth seal? mid final seven years, or towards the end of the seven years

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 11 puts the timing of Christ's wrath at the same time as the judging of the dead and the rewarding of His saints

Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,


Mat_25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Gods wrath could begin at Christ's coming on the white horse, if I'm seeing it right