Hey Steven....thank you for your patience. My beef is not with the pre -wrath, mid-trib crowd per se, even though I believe pre trib, but with the no rapture crowd and those who try to force God's children into the tribulation. I also believe that the wrath of God begins at the beginning of the tribulation with the opening of the seven seals, so pre-wrath an pre-trib may be the same.

Speaking of Great Tribulation, here is what Jesus told the church at Thyatira:

Revelation 2:22 (KJV) 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

In contrast, here is what Jesus said to the church at Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Prophetically speaking, it seems that those who are of the church at Philadelphia will not be here during the worst time the world has ever seen or will see. Surely, the true Bride of Christ will not endure the sufferings of the tribulation period. What we are seeing now are the birth pangs leading up to the start of this timeframe.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

There are soo many holes in your comment I don't know where to begin.

So are you saying we are the church of Philadelphia? ( when did it start? )(when will it end?)

Is the age of the church of Philadelphia right now?

What are you saying?


Are you saying that each Church is represented by a time period?


When did the Philadelphia Church age begin?

When were the ages of the other churches? ( Give me some ballpark figures if this is what you believe )

Look forward to understanding what you are trying to say.

Thanks


God Bless

Steven

Steven,
Although each of the seven churches were actual churches at the time Revelation was written, I believe they are prophetic as far as the spiritual conditions of churches that exist today. Why else would it be relevant in a book that speaks of events that are yet to come? The church at Philadelphia is the church that Jesus had only good things to say about, and therefore that is the church that we should strive to be a part of. It is also the church that Jesus promises to keep from the hour of testing that comes upon the whole world. The church of Thyatira is said to be in the Great Tribulation unless it repents. Another church that many identify with today is the church of Laodicea, which is the lukewarm church. Jesus says he will spue that church out of his mouth, so that doesn't sound like the kind of church I want to be a part of. I hope I answered some of your questions.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Overnight I received an email which I mostly agree with so I thought I would share those comments with purple underlined text since they apply to our conversation:

Below are the comments"



"
What he said about the Philadelphia church being the only church not receiving complaints from God is not true. The church of Smyrna (Rev.2:8-11) also did not receive criticism. This is one of the churches in which the Synagogue of Satan is mentioned as well...but it doesn't say the church was involved with them. This could point to what is happening today. The Synagogue of Satan is alive and well in most churches who absolutely love the Nation of Israel with all it's anti-christian people. Smyrna is promised tribulation, imprisonment, and even death...yet they are given the crown of life if they remain faithful.

In Rev. chapter 7, the Tribes of Israel...who are BELIEVERS...are sealed for protection before anything begins...see verse 3. They are not raptured out. It's when Christians think this chapter refers to "Jews" that they make a grievous mistake. It's not "Jews" who are protected....its US, believers.

Also, according to "types and shadows" in the OT, God's people are protected in Goshen when all the plagues are sent on Egypt.

Exodus 8:22-23 says..."And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth. (vs 23) And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be."

God protected His people during these plagues as a type and shadow of what He will do during the plagues to come, which will even be worse. But, God's people are SEALED and protected from it. God told us this in Revelation chapter 7. And as long as people thing this is protection of the Jews, they will be in total error of what is really happening.

Whether or not this is "Petra", the bible does not say. Anyone left on earth during this horrible time who is NOT sealed by God (and protected) will go through some horrible stuff....like painful stings for 5 months...Rev.9:5...but the faithful of God will not be affected. Millions and millions of people will become saved during this time. Whether or not they will also be "sealed" after salvation...I don't know. But, at least they will die "in Christ" from then on. "


Just a little more to think about in this thread/discussion

God Bless

Steven

Revelation 7 is very clear concerning the 144,000 Jews who are sealed by God. Yes, they are really Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, not gentile believers! Read the passage below:

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

That's pretty clear to me! In Daniel chapter 9 we read this: Daniel 9:24 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70th week of Daniel is not complete yet! God will deal with Israel, and save a remnant of them to live during the Millenial reign of Christ. God promised the messiah to Israel long ago, and he will keep his word. Stop it with this replacement theology nonsense!

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Interesting comment.

Define Jew.

Who was the first Jew?

Is there in your opinion a difference based on scripture a difference between



Jew V Hebrew


Something to think about:

Jew--- Is this someone that practices Judaism?

Judaizers- cliok on link: http://theresurgence.com/2010/07/28/the-judaizers-know-your-heretics

-[snippet]-

The Judaizers: Know Your Heretics

The Rise of the Judaizers

A problem arose in the early church when the apostles took the gospel of Jesus to Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles. When Gentiles responded to the gospel, a conflict arose that threatened to divide the church. A group called the Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas at the Council of Jerusalem (AD 50) in Acts 15. They were uncertain that the benefits of the covenant people of God were to be extended to the Gentiles, thus doubting their conversion by the gospel. Paul's response assures them that the Gentiles had indeed been made partakers in the blessings of the covenant, namely, the Holy Spirit: "And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).

The Judaizers' View of Salvation

The Judaizers were teaching that God still required everyone to observe certain rituals and statutes in order to be accepted by him as Father. Paul, in recounting his confrontation of Peter before the Judaizers, gives us an insight into the teaching of this group (Gal. 2:14). Apparently, the Judaizers were attempting to force Gentile Christians to live under the regulations of the Mosaic Law. They are also called the "circumcision party" (Gal. 2:12), because one of the specific elements of the Law that the Judaizers were forcing the Gentile Christians to live by was the practice of circumcision. Peter had withdrawn himself from eating with Gentile Christians, fearing the opposition that would come from the Judaizers who would never do such a thing out of fear of acidentally eating unclean food. However, Paul said Peter's conduct was "not in step with the truth of the gospel" (Gal. 2:14)


The Orthodox Response

Paul's response is given in Galatians 2:16: "We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Paul's other response is found in Galatians 5:12: "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!" He suggests self-castration for those who require circumcision for others. Paul made his point clearly. According to Paul and the response drafted at the Council of Jerusalem, the Gentiles were not obligated to follow the restrictions of the Law. They were free in Christ, who had fulfilled the demands of the Law. Paul exhorted the Gentiles to abstain from practices associated with pagan idol worship, not to earn their salvation, but as a response to the life-changing message of the gospel and in gratitude for God's gift of salvation.

Why Does All This Matter?

While the heresy of the Judaizers was put to rest by the Apostle Paul, the idea behind their erroneous belief still permeates the church today. The issues are no longer circumcision or ceremonial uncleanness, but the question of how the law relates to salvation—or how works relate to righteousness—is still something that many Christians remain confused about today. Paul's exhortation to the Judaizers remains as important as ever. It is not by works that we are saved, but solely by the grace of Christ. In fact, to add anything to the work of Christ for salvation actually negates God's grace. Paul says, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose" (Gal. 2:21).

-[snippet]-

Hebrew: What is a Hebrew?


Now the scripture says


John 18

18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.
14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
15 And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.
16 But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
17 Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.
19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
23 Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
24 Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
25 And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.


KJV


===================

====================


Just some questions to think about and search the scriptures......

pray for discernment and for the HOLY SPIRIT to lead us to all TRUTH.


I pray this is thought provoking , encouraging and edifying.


God Bless


Steven

Steven,
I am definitely a gentile, not Jewish. As far as the 144,000 are concerned, it's laid out clearly in Revelation 7 that there are 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes. There is no ambiguity there. I know that I am not one of the 144,000, so in the view of a post-trib rapture, I would not be raptured alive at the end of the 70th week of Daniel. I still believe in a pre-trib rapture until I see the two witnesses show up.

Kevin

I don't know when the rapture takes place, I'm looking at pre seals which I guess is the pre trib

view. I say pre seals because all the Church has tribulation, some not as bad as you might think.

Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out

of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So the church goes through tribulation, and great tribulation at that, for some

Tribulation is before God's wrath, and I believe the rapture is before God's wrath, according to

many verses, so it should be that pre trib rapture is not the right stance. But I don't know just

yet, there are some good arguments for it. Perhaps two raptures of the church??

After all apart from the Church, the two witnessess and the 144,000 are raptured also

You know, the above verse shows that the rapture is both post trib, and pre wrath

I just rembered the scripture about the earth being burned up at God's coming. that sounds like

post millinium

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall

pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and

the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to

be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on

fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So I have pre seals - pre trib, post trib, pre wrath, and post millinium, which leaves mid trib and

that fits the middle of Daniels week

So no wonder we don't know, although some that belong to one or another of those stances claim to

know

God, Bless

John

John,
I think most believers agree that the church will not suffer God's wrath, but the question is when does God's wrath get poured out? There are so many different answers that believers give to that question. I believe his wrath is poured out throughout the 70th week of Daniel. Also, we need to recognize that God turns his attention back to Israel during this time. It's all about removing the temporary spiritual blindness from Israel. He brought them back into their land from every nation they were dispersed into after over 1800 years, which is significant. No one thought that Israel would ever exist again, but God brought them back through the Balfour agreement in 1917. Since that time Jews have streamed back to their homeland, and became recognized as a nation in 1948. Jesus said "this generation shall not pass til all these things be fulfilled". What generation was he talking to? It would have to be the generation that saw Israel become a nation again. That time is quickly running out. The 70th week of Daniel has nothing to do with the church, but everything to do with Israel.

Kevin

Here are a set of videos that explains and answers a lot of questions


Let me know your thoughts AFTER you take the time to watch them in their entirety...

Unfortunately Robert Van Kampen died in 1999-2000

God Bless

Steven

This is in response to KEVIN in what he said in his posting of 4/23 on the Jews being the chosen people...and all the rest of what he said.

There is no other way to say this other than that I believe you are almost totally wrong...except for maybe your spelling.

God does NOT have TWO plans...one for the Church and one for the "Jews". Do you understand who "Israel" is in the Bible? All through the Bible...OT and NT..."Israel" is the name for those who follow God. The "Jews" today are not believers, and therefore, are NOT called "Israel" by God. See Galatians 6:16 for God's definition of "Israel".

The "Jews" who are in the newly appointed (by the U.N.) Nation of Israel , for the most part, despise our Lord Jesus Christ and most follow the Talmud, which has disparaging and hateful things to say about the Lord Jesus Christ. They are "liars" and "antichrist"...read I John 2:22. Those are God's word, not mine.

The "Jews" are people who practice Judaism...and God fought against their leaders during His years of ministry. He called Rabbis, Pharisees, Sadducees, and all the leaders of the Judaisers "whited sepulchres" and other nasty (but appropriate) names. THEY believed that their Messiah would bring the Kingdom of God to this earth with Him when He came, with the Jews being the ruling class. BUT Jesus DID NOT come to bring this Kingdom of God (which is a SPIRITUAL kingdom...see John 18:36) at that time, and the Jews had Him killed for this because He told the truth of who He was....the Messiah.

From what you can see, many Christians NOW believe the same ERROR that the "Jews" believed back then. Jesus Christ is NOT coming back to set up a "kingdom" for the "Jews" in the near future, any more than he was going to do it back then. He is coming in JUDGMENT (which BEGINS at the "house of God", or the Church...I Pet. 4:17) to judge EVERYBODY. And THEN, He is going to set up His SPIRITUAL KINGDOM. There will be no "fleshy Jews" ruling over a SPIRITUAL Kingdom. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God"....I Corinthians 15:50. READ IT.

We aren't supposed to have "religion"...we are supposed to BELIEVE what our Lord Jesus Christ did for us and then GROW in grace (sanctification). We are not supposed to play "follow the leader" and expect this to get accomplished. Yet, so many do, and they believe the lies told to them.

If you do an intense...and daily...study of the Bible, yourself, you will come to understand the DIFFERENCE between "Israel" (saved people) and "Gentiles" (nations and people who are NOT saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ). There are NO other people in the plan of God. You are saved, or you are NOT saved. And being "Jewish" has nothing to do with being saved. They are NOT a "race" as some people believe. Some may come from the Tribe of Judah, but those people do not have different DNA, and they do not call themselves "Jews". ALL "Jews" practice Judaism (a religion) or belong to a culture that practices Judaism. No DNA involved here. I have studied DNA for a long time in my chosen profession.

A person who God called a "spiritual Jew" is one who is SAVED and has a "circumcision of the heart". Chopping off a piece of your "manhood" has nothing to do with salvation in the NT. And in the OT, it was only a "natural" foreshadow of what was to come as the "spiritual" fulfillment in believers in Jesus Christ.

Please do a long study of the origins of the "Jews", and it will become clear to you. And if your pastor is teaching you that the Jews are the "chosen people" today...you need a new pastor.

Arlene

Arlene,
I don't know where you getting this from. Gentile believers are not the same as Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel. That is completely contrary to scripture. Just read what Romans 11 has to say about believers boasting that they have taken the place of Israel in God's eyes:

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

I think this passage from Romans makes it clear that Israel is still Israel, and we are still Gentiles grafted in to the Olive tree(God's family). Paul makes it clear that Israel is spiritually blind right now, but God will reconcile a remnant of Israel to himself during the 70th week of Daniel. This is very plain in the word of God. I am a gentile that has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus!

Kevin

Reply for Kevin....

Well, you have lots of scripture there to read....again! Isn't it strange that we all read the same words, but some of us come up with a different result in understanding? Long ago, before they were told the truth, girls thought that kissing resulted in pregnancy, and they swore by it...but that's another story. And I actually believed my mother when she said that the first pregnancy (after marriage) didn't always take 9 months...etc.

But, that's ok. You will know the truth some day. It will get you some time when you least expect it. You know, an "AHA!!!" moment. That's what happened to me after years of going to church and hearing the same message about the Jews being God's "chosen people". I heard it also, and I believed it as well. BUT, there will come a day when your eyes will see differently. You don't think so, but you will. But, if it makes you comfortable to believe as you do, then nobody or nothing (humanly) can change your mind. It's a waste of time to try. But, the Holy Spirit of God (the "breath" of God, as I like to think of it) will allow you to see the truth that you can't right now.

I don't believe in coincidences, but I just posted an article on this subject today. It's an article by Dr. Lorraine Day, and it's all about replacement theology and dispensationalism. It might do you a world of good to get some insights from there.

One day...all will be known. Be patient until then.

Arlene

Hi Arlene and Kevin,


Posting this to help find the Thread of Arlene

Arlene referred to this Article submitted earlier today.



'What is Replacement Theology? What is Dispensationalism? "

God Bless

Steven

Steven,
I'm done with debating this issue. I have rightly divided the word of truth, and I'm not a novice when it comes to studying the scriptures. Arlene can believe whatever she wants to, but I do know that God will redeem a remnant of Jews when they finally bow down before Jesus Christ as their messiah and savior!

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

That's ok..

This thread will be valuable to those that DO watch the Videos,

Read the articles and read the thread.......

Wrath v Tribulation

Jew V Hebrew

besides all the other areas that were touched upon....




[ note: ]

-This thread is still open for conversation.



God Bless

Steven

subscribing

Rudylee,

Your article is silly and misdirected. We can try to find a rationalization for whatever WE WANT to think whether it is Pretrib, Post Trib or Anytime Rapture, 6 literal day creation, evolution, theistic evolution or whatever.

The KEY is we need to be humble and start by considering that
(1) We do not know what the event timeline is.
(2) We have a number of preconceived ideas
(3) We probably do not want to know the truth
Thus we will fall into false reality.

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thess 2:10-12 So the deluded Church liars are ****ed.
Not everyone who says to me ... will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Now that's a serious statement to consider, especially from those who claim "we are going to heaven". Good luck with that. Perhaps you should start looking for the real truth and show some humility. The wicked one will put himself in control above the almighty, too. But remember who has the last word. Then you are gone and it's over for you your being your soul.

Be a little humble, start from Scratch, seek God when you are alone and maybe he can get thru to your mind and you will realize you do not understand (1) the creation account, (2) the prophetic passages and (3) most anything.

Should I bother to repeat your unfounded statements ? EVERY sentence except the last is simply based on assumptions and have no factual basis. Examine them, Readers ! What you present is the quality of non-thought that is presented commonly in the media (medium, demonic... get the association). For example, I happened to hear a commentator (expert) talking with (british fool ) on TV last night; he suggested that the internet etc. had a role to play in the Boston Bombings and came up with "Multiple Factors" or some such foolishness as an explanation for what happened. Any fool listening to this can indeed be Fooled (Deceived) into thinking a number of things: (1) that we do not know and can not know what is going on here (2) that we can know what is going on here but can not really prove it (3) that there are some factors that are working together to MAKE PEOPLE DO Crazy Things. That's the takeaway message I get from such foolishness. But that is only the surface message. The whole ASSuMption is that these two kids did the bombing and that (somebody somewhere) has proof of it and that no one else was involved. Well, folks, take a Good Listen to Joel Skousen's analysis of the facts he has gathered regarding the bombing showing that the story which is the underlying assumption of all of the barrage of media (recently on TheNutrimedicalReport with Dr. Deagle and last night on Rense.com Hour 3).
They are simply repeating a lie and people are ASSuMing it is correct. The same has occurred for Years in the Baptist churches (see GARBC.com) where they promote a Private Interpretation of scripture. Specifically the state that there is a "rapture preceding a 7 year tribulation" which is not stated in scripture at all but is instead (giving it more credit that warranted) an interpretation. It is really a statement stating that "we believe" = we can be live or give life to a reality that is our own = we are now God and have exalted ourself above the Most High. Oops ! Folks, judge for youself who the liars and deceived are. "And he deceives the whole world"

Oops, I'm telling too much truth. Sorry we have to burst the bubble.

The BEST evidence for a rapture that occurs before Christ's Return (I mean the one final return) was presented on Dr. Stan Monteith's show (GCNlive.com 6-8 PM EST M-F) recently by a pastor (please note that Stan Monteith sells a book which "exposes" the pretrib rapture) who discussed that folks who I will refer to as star children / new agers are promoting the idea that 20 million evil folk will be removed from the earth at some point in time. Stan's friend Constance Cumby (the microeffect network show now on saturday am 10-12 noon EST) has commented that this has been a long-time proposition held by these star folk lovers. This is the Best and Only evidence for such a rapture. Consider that removal may occur at the end when the earth is "destroyed" in the final judgement. There are many possibilities but some that are proposed are flatly WRONG based on various passages. Look for obvious signs, wars, rumors of wars (news), earthquakes, a peace treaty signed and sacrifice on the temple mount. Who just visited israel and spoke about "Peace and Security" ... and prosperity. What's he getting at by that talk ....? Oh, yea, then we see some sudden destruction here and perhaps have overlooked some drone mediated 1/2 a block blasts blowing up some ... collateral damage. Why do you think the boomerang comes back ? I expect the boomerang to come back a lot harder unless we simply make a change -- repent. So what can we do about this stuff ? We are here, we can take action !

And, by the way, the last sentence makes a good point: Satan is ruling over us now. Why do you think God gave him reign over us ? Did we do something wrong or, do nothing in the face of great evil ?
Keep playing church ! Judegment begins at the house of God.