I simply don't agree with Jovial!!!

Based on what Jovial did, we don't need to look at the old testament AT ALL because that only applied to Israel! We don't need to look at Revelation and just close the book of prophecy because It just about Israel.
We don't need to make ourselves perfect because it's all about Israel and not us ...

I know I am using hyperbolic sense but the point is whoever in God YHWH, they must pay attention toward what God has commanded to humanbeings. If one country has strayed away from God, He will send a prophet or apostles to remind that nation of how far that nation has fallen. It is surely not apply only to the US but also other countries as well. Since US is very close to Israel and in many instances in the past has supported Israel and has prospered because of that purpose and use the Word of God as its foundation initially then likewise the US will be warned when it swayed away from God's commandment. It happened in the past to Niniweh. Just because I cannot read literally the US in the Bible doesn't mean that the US is not in the Bible. Just because I cannot see Steven, Scribe and others in the Bible doesn't mean they are not in the Bible.
Just because Singapore is not in the Bible doesn't mean that the Word of God and the truth of God is excluded from Singapore.
So in short, I don't agree with Jovial at all. The US has been warned over and over again and if this country fails to respond to that warnings appropriately then what happened to Sodom will happen to the US, what happened to Israel will happen to the US. And this also applies to many other nations on this earth especially those who have close relationships with God in the past.
May Yahshua bless us all as The Word of God is universal and can be applied to many things and persons and nations.

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Lydia F (5 Feb 2013)
"re: Jovial and The Harbinger"


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Hi Jovial,


You wrote, "Johnathan Cahn wrote a fictional novel based on his reassembly of history assuming certain passages of Scripture apply to America." The problem with that statement is that, in fact, you are assuming that he is reassembling history, assuming that certain passages of Scripture apply to America. If you took the time to read the book, you would discover that he merely points out many undeniable parallels between ancient Israel and modern-day America. I have read The Harbinger myself and found it very compelling, and although I have also read many critiques of the book - often written by those who have not read it - I have not read anything suggesting that Rabbi Cahn got his historical facts wrong.


You also wrote, "The Harbinger contains a lot of info involving what Cahn has read into Isa 9:10 and read into American history." Without having read the book yourself, you are not qualified to say that. I don't doubt your scholarship at all, but you are expressing an opinion on something without doing your research in this case.


Please read The Harbinger first, then come back and give us a point-by-point refutation of what he got wrong. That approach would be much more helpful.


Thank you,
Lydia F

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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Arlene (5 Feb 2013)
"Comment for Jovial..."


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Jovial, I thoroughly enjoyed both your posts today. One was on the fig tree NOT being the land of Israel. I agree. Included in today's postings was one I sent in with a sermon by John Bunyon from 1688 which clearly spoke of fig trees being believers, or those who profess to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Putting forth leaves and fruit are indications of living "trees" (believers) who are either on the way to producing fruit (leaves) or have produced fruit that is expected by our Lord.

One reason I do not believe that the fig tree refers to the nation of Israel is from what is said in Luke 21:29-30 (these are "red letter" words indicting that they are interpreted to be the actual words used by Jesus Christ)..."Behold the fig tree, and ALL the trees; (30) When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand:...." IF Jesus had been referring to Israel becom! ing a nation again and then gaining territory, then what about all the other trees? Does this mean that all the nations which were present at the time of the crucifixion would return to being those nations again? That never happened.

Trees are symbolic of people (see Mark 8:24). And it felt so good to read your posting.

I also agree with you about "The Harbinger". I have the book, and I have read it....and enjoyed it. But, as you said, it is fiction containing some very thought-provoking points and information. I am looking forward to what you will have to say concerning America and Babylon. Nothing anyone has said so far is "written in cement" in my mind on the interpretation of "Mystery, Babylon". As the Bible says, it is a mystery whose certainty is not yet known.

Jeremiah 50:12-13 seemingly points to America where it says, "Your mother (England) shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be asha! med: behold, the hindermost of the nations (last nation to become a world power) shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert. (13) Because of the wrath of the Lord it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues." This connects to Rev. 17 and 18 in their description of end-time Babylon.

My own thoughts are in parentheses. Some say that Rome (Vatican religious system) is Babylon, and some have other theories. I do know that America is a nation set up to be multicultural. This is exactly why God dispersed all the people after the building of the Tower of Babel. We were all supposed to stay in our own cultures. All this mixing and mingling of different races, religions, and cultures has caused nothing but war and strife. But, I am open to hearing what others have to say.

I look forward to your future postings.....a! nd thanks for the great ones today.

Arlene

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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Frank Molver (7 Feb 2013)
"Jovial re the US not being Babylon and Harbinger"


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http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2013/jovial25.htm

Good letter Joe, some good points
We appreciate your studies and bible knowledge
We do grasp at straws sometimes
But, Israel is without a doubt our prophetic time peace
It's rebirth to the world can not be denied as 1948
70 years will be in 2018, this generation will see the return of the Lord in the sky

Yes, many of us believe the US will be no more
Many of us believe that Obama is the man to take away the constitution
Do you see any significance in the Statue of Liberty?
Do you know who built it and why?
Can you deny what happened on 9-11, the beam striking the sycamore tree?.
That tree in front of the very church that George Washington dedicated this nation to
Isnt it strange that the senator quoted the scripture of the sycamore tree the day after 9-11 on national news
That is not fiction, the rest of the book wraps around the story but those things happened

Though you do have the gift of bible knowledge it seems you disregard those with other gifts
Numerous people from all over the world have warned about Obama
Many have seen him change from some one who merely mocked Christian beliefs.
They have seen him change into a world AC dictator, how the world was fooled, even Christians

Now you think that it doesn't add up
Well, wait my friend.
Like Nicole has warned, it will start with something that appears good, like health coverage and gun control
It will proceed to eliminating opposition on the internet
You really should watch the video by the White house insider re the litmus test for US military leaders
This should open your eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABAlJqEBpdI

This is happening right now, the trap is set, but most people are totally unaware



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Jovial (6 Feb 2013)
"Is America in Prophecy? Part 3: Where the USA REALLY is in Prophecy"


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There is one part of prophecy I think DOES refer to America in Isaiah / Yeshayahu 18:1. It starts off ...


הוֹי אֶרֶץ, צִלְצַל כְּנָפָיִם, אֲשֶׁר מֵעֵבֶר, לְנַהֲרֵי-כוּשׁ.
Oy, land of the buzzing wings, which is beyond the rivers of Cush;



Since the eagle is a symbol of the USA, it could fit "buzzing wings". I haven't ruled out the possibility this is a reference to our shore line, but I'll avoid getting into that.

Where is Cush? Some debate that issue. Some claim it is east of Babylon since Cush was the father of Nimrod who moved east to get to Babylon. But Cush is generally interpreted as the area south of Egypt, and two chapters later, in Isaiah 20, Egypt and Cush are mentioned together.

The Nile River runs from Egypt into "Cush"; Sudan and Ethiopia. So perhaps this is telling us it is not talking about Egypt and Cush, even though the description could be confused for that since it calls this land a land that is divided by rivers, and the Nile certainly does that. But in the next verse (Isaiah 18:2), it says...

הַשֹּׁלֵחַ בַּיָּם צִירִים, וּבִכְלֵי-גֹמֶא עַל-פְּנֵי-מַיִם, לְכוּ מַלְאָכִים קַלִּים אֶל-גּוֹי מְמֻשָּׁךְ וּמוֹרָט, אֶל-עַם נוֹרָא מִן-הוּא וָהָלְאָה--גּוֹי קַו-קָו וּמְבוּסָה, אֲשֶׁר-בָּזְאוּ נְהָרִים אַרְצוֹ.
That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of papyrus upon the waters! Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation tall and of glossy skin, to a people terrible from their beginning onward; a nation that is sturdy and treadeth down, whose land the rivers divide! (JPS)



Egypt and Cush could send ambassadors by land. But is there a nation that cannot reach Israel by land, and is divided by a great river or rivers? Both the USA and Brazil fit that description. A river cuts through the USA from the top of Minnesota to New Orleans, called the "Mississippi River" after St Louis, but its name changes several times. The Amazon also splits Brazil. Neither can reach Israel by land and would have to send ambassadors by sea. In our modern times, we could fly, but who would have believed that one in Isaiah's day? So both the USA and Brazil fit this description, but let me examine more context to determine who fits it better.

This verse is translated many different ways by different people...

King James
...Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

NIV
...Go, swift messengers, to a people tall and smooth-skinned, to a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers.

NASB
Go, swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth, To a people feared far and wide, A powerful and oppressive nation Whose land the rivers divide.

Wycliff
Go, ye messengers, to the folk drawn up and rent; to a fearedful people, after which is none other; to the folk abiding and defouled, whose land the floods have ravished;

YLT
Go, ye light messengers, Unto a nation drawn out and peeled, Unto a people fearful from its beginning and onwards, A nation meeting out by line, and treading down, Whose land floods have spoiled.

Darby
Go, swift messengers, to a nation scattered and ravaged, to a people terrible from their existence and thenceforth; to a nation of continued waiting and of treading down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

NRSV
Go, you swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth, to a people feared near and far,a nation mighty and conquering, whose land the rivers divide.

Amplified
Go, you swift messengers, to a nation tall and polished, to a people terrible from their beginning [feared and dreaded near and far], a nation strong and victorious, whose land the rivers divide!



The word "בזא" can mean to divide or spoil, so I can see why a minority of translators came to the conclusion this is saying that the rivers have flooded, but I would disagree. the Hebrew text describes the nation as "מְמֻשָּׁךְ וּמוֹרָט" which is translated

"scattered and peeled" (KJV)

"tall and smooth[skinned]" (NIV, NASB, NRSV, JPS, Amplified)

"drawn up and rent" (Wycliff)

"drawn out and peeled" (YLT)

The first Hebrew word, "מְמֻשָּׁך", can mean pulled out, drug, lengthened or tall. It may be describing people who are tall. but it could also be saying the land in question is long geographically, stretching out many miles. Notice how some translators (NIV, NASB, etc) interpreted this as applying to the individuals. Wycliff and YLT interpreted this as applying to the land. And the KJV interpreted this as applying to the multitude, and how they spread out on the land.

The second word, "מוֹרָט", can refer to something that is smooth, polished, etc. It can refer to skin that is free from hair, and might therefore refer to the tendency of the men to shave their faces or possibly a genetic trait as well. Or it could refer to this being done to the land since many miles of pavement have been laid across the American landscape.

All translations agree that this nation is "feared", but differ on how between mostly two choices:

"far and wide" or "near and far" (NIV, NASB, NRSV)

"from its beginning and onwards" (KJV, YLT, JPS, Darby, Amplified)

The term is "הוּא וָהָלְאָה" and would be most literally rendered "is and beyond". It is a matter of interpretation whether this is time, distance, or a merger of both.

There is a lot of disagreement on how to interpret "קַו-קָו וּמְבוּסָה"

"meted out and trodden down" - In other words, they've been conquered. (KJV)

"meeting out by line, and treading down" - Or, they DO the conquering. (YLT)

"sturdy and treadeth down" (JPS)

"powerful and oppressive nation" (NASB)

"mighty and conquering" (NRSV)

"strong and victorious" (Amplified)

"continued waiting and of treading down" (Darby)

"abiding and defouled" (Wycliff)

"an aggressive nation of strange speech" (NIV)

I have no idea why the NIV translated this as "strange speech". The others have some interesting variances that are more interpretative than someone being wrong and the other right. One variance exists because "קו" can refer to a line or a measuring line (thus the "meted out" of the KJV / YLT) and "קוה" can refer to hoping, waiting , or anticipation, thus we get the Darby / Wycliff interpretation. The NASB / NRSV / Amplified may have interpreted the "line" as a "staff" or "rod", or a symbol of power, and thus rendered it more interpretatively as "powerful", "mighty" or "strong". Others render the second word more literally or interpretatively, although the KJV is the only version claiming this country has been "trodden down" instead of being the one to do the treading. The KJV interpretation does not fit the context because how could a nation be "feared" unless they are the treadors, not the treadees?

Now if the USA and Brazil were both put to this test, there's no doubt Brazil would be afraid to go to war with the USA, putting the USA in a position of better fitting this than Brazil. So while both are split by a large river, the USA fits the overall descriptions better.

Egypt is split by the Nile, but the opening seems to tell us not to get this nation confused with Egypt. This nation must send ambassadors by boat, whereas Egypt could send them by land. This nation is "feared", and Egypt was once, but is not so much anymore.

However, perhaps the USA is a modern Egypt. Under Joseph, Egypt grew into the most powerful nation on earth. It grew into the richest and most powerful military. The children of Israel went to Egypt because there was prosperity there, and they left when God called them out. And the Hebrew name for Egypt, "Mitsraim", refers to a land split by a river.

The USA is another land split by a great river, which became home to more Jews than even Israel prior until recently, and only in the last century have Jews begun migrating from the USA back to Israel. If America really is a modern Egypt, then perhaps what happened to Egypt when Israel left on the first Passover will also happen to the USA when Israel goes into the Desert in Revelation 12?

There are many parallels between modern day United States and ancient Egypt before the Exodus.

Both are split by a great river.
Both became the strongest economic power of their time.
And just as Jacob and his family went to Egypt when life became better there, so too has the USA become the most common immigration destination for the largest number of displaced Jews not in Israel.
So instead of looking for the USA in prophetic references to Babylon, perhaps the best place is to study the pattern of Egypt before the Exodus and consider how that could apply. For example, will the American equivalent of “Pharoah” fall when the Exodus of Revelation 12 occurs? Time will tell.

Overall, Isaiah 18 doesn't say much about America. In essence, it says that the most feared nation on earth....will come to fear the God of Israel. That's about it. Whatever Isaiah 18 is saying about whoever it is, it is not saying very much at all.

This is America's role ; to be the model of what is feared for two reasons. One is to glorify G-d, by being mentioned as a nation that will ahve to bow to G-d since no man, no matter how powerful, gets out of that. Prior to the Millenium, the "Beast" will use America to prove its power by bringing America into subjection to the Beast, which will amaze the world.

Another place where the USA could be referenced less explicitly is in Daniel 8:9, where it says the false messiah will “waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the TsaVI (צבי) [translated “pleasant land” in KJV].” (Dan 8:9, KJV) If the false messiah rises from Europe, then it explains why it only references two directions, East and South, since Europe is already in the North Western corner of the Eastern Hemisphere.

The King James translates TsaVI (צבי) as “pleasant land”, but other interpretations could exist. The word “land” is not really here and this does not have to refer to land, though the context suggests it is some geographical area. The word “צבי” can mean “pleasant” but could also mean “beautiful”, “glorious.” In other words, this may not refer to a particular direction, but just anything desirable. Most of the Western Hemisphere is called “America”, meaning “rich land”, and the name could be considered a match with this description.

Because the word “land” (singular, and never “lands”, or plural) is often inserted by many translators, many people have read this as referring to a specific land, and probably Israel. But it is not likely that this word would be chosen for only Israel, since there is a small area of Israel that went by this name and is referenced in places like Genesis 10:19,14:2,8, Deuteronomy 29:22, etc. And Babylon is called “צבי ממלכות” or “the glory of the kingdoms” in Isaiah 13:19, using the same word for “glory” in Isaiah 13:19 that is used in Daniel 8:9.

The word “land” is included in Daniel 11:16,41. And while this may refer to Israel, I do not rule out the possibility it could refer to the Americas. It may be that language was chosen so as to allude to both the Americas and Israel at the same time as a way of indicating the fact that they will be allies at the time it happens and desired for similar motivations and share some parallel fates.

The USA can be considered an “Egypt” relative to Israel of sorts. All of Israel lived in Egypt at one point, migrating back to the promised land under Moses. 2011 statistics state there are 5.7 million Jews living in Israel, 5.2 million in the USA, and 2.5 million in other parts of the world. Israel has grown considerably in the last century with some immigration from the USA and heavy immigration from the rest of the world. The USA was also the most popular destination for Jewish immigrants around the World War II time period in which the Jewish population in the USA grew from 1 million in 1910 to 4.6 million in 1937. The immigration to the Unites States was due to both the prosperity of the USA as well as their tolerance for religious freedom, factors that also existed when Joseph was viceroy in Egypt. We have not yet seen a mass immigration from the USA to Israel as was seen under Moses, but perhaps that is in store for the future.

Jerusalem is called a spiritual “Egypt” in Revelation 11:8, but that is because Jews will flee the city when the events in Revelation 11-12 occur and leave the city for the wilderness of Revelation 12. But perhaps the USA is alluded to with the language that is used in Isaiah 18 and Daniel 9 because it shares a similar to Israel in some respects as the primary destination of Jewish immigrants besides Israel, but also shares a fate with ancient Egypt as a place where Jews will leave when the end time events unfold.

Shalom, Joe




++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

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Steven

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Jovial (8 Feb 2013)
"Answering some of Frank's questions"

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In re Frank's comments at http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2013/frankm27-3.htm , I would not be surprised if "the One" was indeed the one who took the USA down and caused the collapse that prevents us from hearing about it in prophecy. I never said I liked his policies. But someone will be yanking his chain when the final power shift occurs. In fact, you wonder how many people already are consider his dependency on the teleprompter.

Statue of Liberty did not have the best of origins. I wouldn't mind hearing your thuoghts on that one.

Was 9/11 the beam that struck the sycamour tree? I don't think Isaiah was talking about the USA. Certainly not directly. and keep in mind that much of what Cahn said about it is not proven to have happened in history - it is his re-assemblying of what he THINKS happened. When someone alleges that perhaps a set of facts happened that - WOW - match this verse so great - well - that is easy to do when you are proposing the facts in order to fit that verse.



There are no historical references from the 18th century to prove what Cahn said about our founding history has any validity. However, what he said about modern politics is pretty mind blowing. And I am not trying to argue Cahn is wrong. I am simply saying that we need to separate what we KNOW from what we read between the lines in order to avoid making the mistake of acting on a conclusion that was based on a faulty premise. and if someone wants to try and claim Cahn put it all together perfectly - all I got to say is go find some historical documents to prove the case. Cahn doesn't quote any historical documents on his 18th century assumptions.



I haven't read his book. I did read his website on it and thought it was the most amazing thing until I found out it was fiction and mostly what he read into the situation rather than being conclusions based on real history. Then I was disappointed that he didn't document that for the reader. Somewhat misleading really.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum, ( http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com ) does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

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Joe Chappell (11 Feb 2013)
"To: Jovial , Re Isaiah 18"

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I appreciate your research on Isaiah 18, and agree that it is talking about America.

This is a copy of my post to Five Doves back in 2008.

You seem to have come to some of the same conclusions about this chapter.
...................................................................................................................
( Five Doves June 2008 )

For some time, I have contemplated Isaiah 18.
In January of this year, I memorized the entire chapter. I recite it daily.

I believe it is without a doubt , a picture of America, and her last days.

In 1992 I lived in southern Spain. At the time, the most popular TV program in the entire world, was Bay Watch, with David Hasselhoff. It was seen by over 900 million people around the world every week. A bunch of tall , bronzed and blond, nearly naked people running around on the beach, became the symbol of America to most of the world. This is the nation " scattered and peeled" which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia ( an expression meaning far , far , away ) . That sends ambassadors by the sea, ( Condoleeza Rice, Jimmy Carter, Kissinger , Colin Powell, ...etc...etc) Whose land the rivers have spoiled . ( A land circuited by rivers, the mighty Mississippi, the Colorado, the Tennessee, Ohio,....etc, our eariy interstate highways ) A land shadowing with wings ( the U.S. is the most heavily air trafficked natiion in the world, also a possible reference to the planes used in the 911 attack ). A nation meted out and trodden under foot. ( No one has more automobiles or paved roads, than America).

Now the tables are turned. It is America that is going to get a message. The message is this: v3, "All ye inhabitants of the World and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign ( I believe this is the Israeli flag lifted in the Golan Heights when fierce fighting erupts) and when he bloweth a trumpet, ( my opinion: THE RAPTURE BLAST ) hear ye"
v.4 " for so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest " ( could the evil one be mocking this word from the Lord through Obama, when he says that on the 73rd day he will rest? ) and I will consider in my dwelling place, like a clear heat upon herbs, and a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest ". ( I picture mushroom clouds over America when I read this verse ) July 11, 2009, is HOT summer time in the US.

v.5 " For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect". This is a very, very, precise reference to an exact moment in time. Make no mistake, if you can understand this verse, you are wise indeed. " and the sour grape is ripening in the flower" . Sounds to me like the words of the LORD OF THE HARVEST, examining very carefully the fruit, to determine the exact moment for the harvest.

" he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches. " Somebody is going to get a very close haircut !!!

v. 6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains and the the beasts of the earth" . At this point , Gods people are gone, America lies in ruins. The vultures decend, the beasts move in for the carnage." And the fowls shall summer upon them ", ( it will be summer) " and the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them",

v. 7 "In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of Hosts," ( my belief is that the post rapture saints, who live in the burned out land that was once America, will somehow get hold of all the gold and silver stored at Fort Knox. They will secretly load it onto planes or ships, and deliver it to Israel, where it will be used in the construction of the third Temple. ) ...............to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion"

please consider this dear ones, and be alert!!! joe chappell

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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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