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The New Jerusalem is Here

A pair of major confirmations from God that time is short for the Church of Philadelphia, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem.

Praise God!





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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


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I hope he's ready to show some endurance because he's still got a number of years before the rapture: which occurs at the second coming/the parousia of the Lord, as taught by Paul:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The parousia is the second coming; and this is why it is said to be "bright" and "destroys that Wicked" (2 Thess 2:8)

Jonathan is not getting any "promise" from the Lord other than what is promised in the scripture. He is going to bring a lot of lamentation not only on himself, but on others, by constantly crying "It's here!" when the rapture is still a number of years off. We still have to endure the time of testing, and the reign of the King of Confusion.

Re 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

This constant shouting of "rapture rapture" will only cause a lot of grief and dashing of hopes to a lot of people. If anything, prepare for war. When the war begins, all those crying "rapture rapture now" are really going to start lamenting, and without endurance- wither away.

John,
If what your saying is true, then why should we even talk about what's happening in the end times? Let me make something clear! If there is no pre-trib rapture of the bride of Christ, then there is no hope for any of us believers! A post-trib rapture is no rapture at all. There will be none of us left, since we will be killed for not taking the mark of the beast. There is so much more scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture than a post-trib rapture.

Kevin

Greetings Kevin,

I am going to divide this response into two posts:

Firstly I want to say that it is my intent only to edify- people often have a tendency to take these words too personally; but this is not at all my intent: but only to edify. Believe me when I tell you that we all begin in error, and are given the call to come out- it happened to me, it will happen to you, and everyone, sooner or later. Now it is far better to feel the heat of a little fire now, and to change our course toward an outcome in which we receive praise of God, than to let the scales remain upon our eyes, and feel the terrible fire then, when all chance of changing course is lost. Far better to discover error before the time, and change the mind to later hear "Well done faithful servant" than to cling to error until the time one hears "Depart from Me; I never knew you": I am sure you would agree. For instance, you would agree that it better a Jehovah's Witness face his error and repent while still time, than to cling to it until time is up.

Not so- indeed the opposite is true: if we're going to be "taken out of the world" why even talk about end times? You won't be here to take part in the first place. But if you are going to be here- then it is imperative to know what is expected of you in your part; true? Understanding what is to happen during the end times is far more important if you are going to pass through it, yes?



Again, not so: indeed, you are now replaying the "evil report" of the 10 spies who cried "We are not able!" But what did the two say? "Let us go up at once!"

Num 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. 31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able!



Again, you're bringing an evil report, which was said of old:

Num 14:3 And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey?

I ask you with all respect and sincerity: do you not know the Lord? Do you think the hand of the Lord cannot guard His chosen? Who do you think is in control of all these things? How is it you say, "There will be none left"? Are these the words of one who knows the might of the Lord? And that He is able by the strength of His hand to guard His own from all evil, and storm and tempest?

Luke 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. 25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith?

Psalm 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; 3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.



They will not be able to kill you. This event in the Revelation concerning the image that all nations must worship or die is that same already come to pass in the days of the King of Babel:

Dan 3:11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.

But when the three refused to bow, then the King was wroth, and commanded them to be killed: but were they killed? No, they were delivered:

Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king’s counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them. 28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

No, it merely appears that way due to misunderstanding the bible. For instance, a Jehovah Witness will claim "there is much more scriptural evidence for a non-God Jesus than a Jesus Who is God" and they will produce their "proof verses" but the truth is that it is not what the bible says, but how they misunderstand what the bible says.

In this instance, one can be 100% certain of when the rapture takes place because the apostle clearly states as much at the "foundational rapture passage" of 1 Thess 4:15-17 where Paul plainly says the rapture occurs at the parousia of the Lord: so there can be no mistake as to when this occurs. The parousia of the Lord is also clearly taught by Paul to be "bright" and that it "destroys that Wicked" (2 Thess 2:8): so the rapture and the destruction of the son of perdition occur at the same time: the parousia of the Lord.

Now, to further explain this: that the bible doesn't provide "evidence" for a "pre-parousia rapture" but only your misunderstanding provides "evidence" (much as the Witness thinks the bible provides "evidence" of a non-God Jesus, when it doesn't) let's simply take one of the most infamous "pre-parousia rapture evidences" and see what it really says:

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Now, most teaching this "pre-parousia rapture" will look at this verse and think "this is evidence of being taken out of the world prior to the parousia" but in truth it is evidence of nothing of the sort. You will look at the words "keep from" and put in your own understanding of "take out of the world" but this is not so: "keep" does not mean "take out of"; we go to the word of Jesus Himself:

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Now, whoever Jesus is praying for, it is manifestly evident that "keep from" does not mean "take out of" as Jesus prays for the one and not the other: so we see that to be "kept from" does not mean to be "taken out of": but this means to GUARD, as a "keeper keeps a gate". And as this Rev 3:10 is not "evidence" of a "taking out of the world" but is "evidence" of being "guarded/kept from the evil"; I assure you that ever single verse you think is "evidence" of a pre-parousia rapture is nothing more than misunderstanding of the scripture.

If you feel, provide all "evidence" you may wish, and just as Rev 3:10 is not evidence of a "taking out" but of a "keeping from", I will show that it is not evidence at all; and all "pre-parousia rapture evidence" is the same as the "evidence" of the Witnesses that Jesus is not God: that is to say, no evidence at all, but misunderstanding of the scripture.

John,
I read your reply to me, and I did go through Revelation to study about the fate of tribulation saints. I have never denied the fact that there will be many people left behind that will get saved during the tribulation period. Those tribulation saints will die for their faith in Jesus Christ. They will not take the mark of the beast or worship his image, and they will be killed. Here are the scriptures that show this to be true:

Revelation 13:7 (KJV) 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 13:15 (KJV) 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 
Revelation 13:16 (KJV) 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 (KJV) 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:18 (KJV) 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.



Revelation 20:4 (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


As you can see, God's word makes it clear that tribulation saints will be beheaded during this time. There is no bubble of supernatural protection for them as there was for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. The only people who will receive supernatural protection during the trib are the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses. Here are the scriptures that point this out:

Revelation 7:3 (KJV) 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 (KJV) 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Revelation 9:4 (KJV) 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


Now the passage concerning the two witnesses who have a 1260 day ministry:

Revelation 11:3 (KJV) 3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 (KJV) 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 (KJV) 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 (KJV) 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 (KJV) 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


So, as you can see, the only people who will be supernaturally protected will be the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses.

There are some scriptures in Revelation that seem to show those of us who are in heaven and also following Jesus on white horses when he returns to defeat the AC and his armies:

Revelation 7:9 (KJV) 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13 (KJV) 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 (KJV) 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Revelation 19:14 (KJV) 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


There are so many more verses in scripture that point to pre-trib rapture, but it would take all day to present every one of them. My point in this reply is to show you that there will be tribulation saints after the rapture who will be killed during the trib, and there will be 144,000 Jews sealed by God, and they will be supernaturally protected. We who are born again believers now in the last days of the Church Age are the Bride of Christ, and Jesus will snatch away his Bride just as the trib begins. Study the traditional Jewish betrothal and marriage ceremony, and compare it with what Jesus said about his church. Jesus is the bridegroom, and he is following the betrothal and marriage customs completely. God bless you John, and keep your eyes on Jesus!

Kevin

Hello again Kevin,

Yes, I know the teaching well enough. But notice you're not responding to what I said about the rapture itself. All that you're doing now is trying to convey who you think the people in the Revelation are, dividing them into groups, etc. but you'll find that all of the things you're doing are dependant upon the "pre-parousia rapture" and various other teachings first being true; if these aren't true, then all you are doing here is presenting a big misunderstanding of scripture. That being said, the passages I cited are still waiting to be addressed by you: for instance:

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Now, how is it possible to you that Paul admonishes us to put on the whole armour of God in order to withstand in the evil day if we are not even going to see the evil day? So by this single verse alone, I know there is something very wrong with "we will be taken out of the world prior to the evil day"; you see?

Here is my challenge to you, if your doctrine is sound enough to answer: can you provide to any reading this discussion, one single verse which plainly teaches any group of Christians will be taken out of the world, at any time? Just one.

For instance, I say to you, "Be ready to endure; we must withstand in the evil day!" and one ask me, "Where in scripture is this taught?" and I will cite the above Ephesians verse which plainly and simply teaches this truth. Again I will say "As well, we will not be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil" and one ask, "And this is taught where?" and I will cite John 17:15.

Thus my challenge to you is to provide one single passage that clearly teaches what you are preaching, that any group of Christians will ever be "taken out of the world"; bear in mind citing a passage where we see a group of people in heaven does not clearly teach anything other than that there is a group of people in heaven- no such passage is teaching how they got there- you are the one "filling in the blanks" in such a case, not the scripture. A meeting in the air is not a "taking out of the world", a "keeping from the evil" is not a "taking out of the world"; so again, my challenge is that you provide one single verse anywhere in the scripture clearly teaching this that you are preaching, a "taking out of the world" of any group of Christians at any time.

I will say up front that I don't expect you will find such a passage, and all of your understanding of the prophesies are based on a teaching that doesn't exist; making all of your understanding of the prophesies in error because of this. Again, I say these things only to the edification of the body, and can assure you- and anyone reading this (bear in mind I am writing this not only for you, but for the sakes of others)- that these teachings you espouse are not true, and are- in fact- the "strong delusion" spoken of by Paul.

Again, the challenge is one single verse clearly, simply teaching a "taking out of the world" of any group of Christians at any time.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I have to also point out this:

First you lamented about how "hopeless it all is!" if there's no "taking out of the world" how "no one would be left!" etc; now, suddenly, you're doing an about-face and a certain group will be supernaturally protected from the evil.

How is it that on the one hand "There is no hope for any Christians if they are not taken out of the world; no hope at all!" then on the other hand "They will be supernaturally protected!"

You make it sound like God loves Jews more than Christins; as Christians are doomed without a "taking out" (implying God will not protect CHRISTIANS) but then He will protect JEWS.

Do you not see how it appears there is something seriously wrong going on in your understanding to lament "No hope!" for Christians in the evil day- but plenty of hope for Jews?

John, I'm going just quoting scripture brother. I think you have not understood the purpose of the trib, which we also know as the 70th week of Daniel. This timeframe has two purposes: fulfill the 70th week of Daniel(Daniel 9:24 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.), and to pour out the wrath of God on a wicked and ungodly world. The church plays no part in this timeframe. This trib timeframe is all about bringing forth a remnant of Israel to finally make an end of sin and to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah. If there was to be a post-trib rapture, when would it happen? Does it happen a few days before Jesus comes riding on the white horse in Revelation 19? How could it possibly happen at the same time Jesus comes back? I can't find scriptures to support that. Who is in the "armies of heaven" behind Jesus? Is that army made up of us or angels?

Here is a scripture passage where Jesus speaks of building mansions for his Bride:
John 14:2 (KJV) 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 (KJV) 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

The following passage is one of my favorites concerning the rapture:
1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When does that passage get it's fulfillment? Here is another one, which is my absolute favorite passage about the rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Wow, caught up to meet the Lord in the air! When will this happen? Also, we are told to comfort one another with these words! How could we possibly find comfort in these words if we knew that we would suffer and die during the worst time the world has ever seen or will ever see? I just don't get it brother, unless it happens before that trib timeframe.

Many times Jesus compares his coming to a thief in the night. This would have to be speaking of a pre-trib rapture rather than his visible return to earth to destroy the AC and his armies right? How could his second coming on a white horse be compared to coming like a thief in the night? Here is a passage of scripture that makes it clear that his coming for his Bride is like a thief in the night, but the Bride will be watching and ready:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 (KJV) 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 (KJV) 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

You see, we will be taken from this world like a thief in the night, but we will be sober and watching for the Lord.

My whole message to born again believers in Jesus Christ is that we should be watching and ready for Jesus to take us home at any time. We know that we are living in the last days prior to the trib, because we can clearly see the signs Jesus told us we would see. He also said when you see these things come to pass, look up, for your redemption draws near. Why would he say that, if he wanted his Bride to get bloodied and killed during the worst days this world will ever see?

One more passage that seems to say that the Bride will not be here for the trib:

Revelation 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You probably know that this was said to the church at Philadelphia. Many of my fellow watchmen believe that the church at Philadelphia represents the true born again believers who will be raptured. Even though I would like to believe that every person who calls themselves a Christian will be raptured or go to heaven when they die, we know that the word Christian is just a generic label. So many people that are church goers are not born again believers! So many of them believe that baby baptism guaranteed them a place in heaven. The church at Philadelphia is much different than the prevalent church at Laodicea we see today. Jesus said he would spew the lukewarm "Christians" out of his mouth.

Well, I hope I made my point better in this reply, but I know we could argue timelines all day long. God bless you John!

Kevin

Hello Kevin, I do see you've quoted a bit of scripture, but would like to point out to the reader that of all the scripture quoted, not one single verse has been quoted which clearly teaches that some group of Christians will be "taken out of the world" at any time. What you are quoting does indeed say a lot about what Jesus is going to do, and how it comes to pass, and such- but not one single passage mentions anything about any group of Christians being "taken out of the world"- thus we have to recognize that what you are preaching concerning this "pre-parousia taking out of the world" doctrine is not found in the scripture at all: but is only found in your teachings. I hope you can understand why I would be very wary of someone preaching something that is not taught in scripture.

Also, again, with due respect (my words are for the body of God): I feel you are not really reading what I am saying at all. I say this because at the end of your citations you quote:



Yet I have already addressed this citation as one of the main culprit verses being wrongly taught in order to perpetuate this notion of a "taking out of the world" of some group of Christians. For the benefit of them who may be reading this, allow me to requote what I have already explained concerning this passage, and how "kept from" does not in any way mean "take out of", and that the ones teaching this to be "the case" are simply guilty of misinterpreting scripture, and then perpetuating that misunderstanding, even when the error is brought to their attention:





Yes very true; clearly and simply taught by the WORD OF GOD.

For the benefit of any reading, I will comment on the other things he has said (yet want to note emphatically that not one single verse has been cited to support the teaching of a "taking out of the world" of anyone at any time).

There are many interpretations of Daniel's 70 weeks; I believe he has misinterpreted the prophecy altogether- but, even if correct, this tells us nothing about any group of people being "taken out of the world" to avoid any alleged "7 year tribulation": so this will coincide with all he has to say afterward (all being based on his interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy)



Those returning with Christ are clearly and simply identified by Paul:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



True. When Jesus returns, His faithful will be gathered to Him and be where He is. Note that no one here is "taken out of the world"; in fact, the opposite is true: Jesus has come back to the world and His faithful have been gathered to where He is: which is not heaven since He has left heaven with all those currently with Him, and has come again to the earth.



These two verses of course have nothing whatsoever to do with any "taking out of the world" but speak of the resurrection from the dead, as plainly and clearly taught.



These speak of His return to the earth to reign, at this time "we who are alive and remaining" are gathered to Him and His saints returning with Him, to the earth, to reign from the Throne of David.



This will occur at "the parousia of the Lord" as simply and clearly taught at verse 15 (left unquoted, yet crucial for understanding the clear and simply taught timing of the event)



Kevin, you "don't get" how being resurrected to immortality and being forever with the Lord could be comforting? You do realize that people have been suffering and dying for Christ for almost 2,000 years? Do you suppose these people found no comfort in the words of Paul? To quote you, "I just don't get it brother"



Take note of what Jesus says immediately prior to Armageddon:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

So, even according to Kevin's own misinterpretation, we are getting ready for Armageddon and Jesus still hasn't come as a thief. That would seem to me to put the nail in the proverbial coffin of "pre-parousia taking out"; but the truth is, it's difficult to put a nail in the coffin of something that doesn't exist.



This describes the second coming; which will fall in like manner upon those not watching: now, about this "as a thief in the night" take note here:

Re 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

So take note that this "come upon you as a thief" doesn't mean all Christians- but only those that will not watch: all of the elect Christians should (and do) know exactly when He is coming.



Are you suggesting that our redemption is not something to "look up" to when the time is approaching? What does "look up" have to do with the situation we will find ourselves in at that time; good or bad? Also you say "he wants His bride bloodied and killed" but again these are your own fearful words not at all the words of scripture. To those reading, despite that a great many are trying to instill fear in you, and make you afraid: I say to you FEAR NOT, the Lord is with us, and will guard us and protect us, as the apple of His eye: therefore, FEAR NOT THE EVIL REPORT - BUT BE STRONG, AND OF GOOD COURAGE, LET US GO UP AT ONCE FOR WE ARE ABLE TO OVERCOME!

John,
It's apparent that we can't agree on when the rapture will happen. What you believe is in direct opposition to what the majority of eschatologists believe. If you are correct, we should see the beginning of the trib real soon. I am not trying to instill fear, but I cannot find any scriptural evidence of supernatural protection of born again believers living in that timeframe. Every verse of scripture in reference to saints in Revelation speaks of them being killed for standing up as believers. I realize that to live is Christ and to die as gain. Either way, believers will go to heaven. My only goal is to find the truth in God's word concerning the rapture. God does not pour his wrath out on the righteous, and never has. An example of this was Noah and his family when God destroyed every creature on Earth with a flood. God also saved Lot and his family when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I would expect that God will not leave his saints here to be killed during the trib either. I guess we will just have to see what happens as things play out. By the way, when do you expect the trib to begin?

Kevin

He prefured to suffer with God' people. Heb. 11: 35

Others died under torture, Heb. 11; 35

they were stoned, sawn in two... Heb. 11: 37

Foxes Book of Marters.

some die and some are rescued from the fire, Daniel -


Be willing to die, to give all...

whatever happens hang on

it did not play out like they thought it ought when Jesus died.


Most people believe...

but we follow the narrow way.


Why do I believe what I believe, and is it Bible based?

or the traditions of man or a Hal Lindsey story book?


We are a pre- trib, mid - trib, post trib rapture board,

for we believe what we believe.

some who walk with him suffer, see history and the world today.
Voice of the Marters,
the church in Russia...
and other saints.

The church of suffering is one of the 7 churches.
They got no rebuke.

See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Psalm 66:10 For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.

Zechariah 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"


http://bible.cc/isaiah/48-10.htm

fair use for information and discussion

Indeed, but as far as I am concerned there are no worries on this end; the scripture indicates to me that understanding is not of ourselves, but is imparted soley by the Lord at the times He sees fit. Therefore, I always want to be sure my words are understoond not as accusatory, or with the intent to injure or frustrate the walk of another- but only to encourage and help others- as I am sure is also your intent. I am lead to believe that all confusion will be burned away by the everlasting fire of the gospel, and that we will all together come into that full knowledge as one body built up for the habitation of God, and that through it all, them that love the WORD OF GOD (and even them that presently do not yet understand the love of God) will be just fine when all is said and done; to the glory of God the Father, and Jesus Christ. Because of this I say, there is nothing at all to fear, come what may; all is in the hands of God, working together according to His counsel to the joy prepared for us.



No disagreement there whatsoever.



Well, as you cite, Noah was safe and sound inside the ark and riding the waves of the flood of waters. I plan on also riding the waves, and smiling as I go. I would also note here that our understanding of the prophesies greatly differ in the point that, while you expect tremendous physical catastrophy, I expect tremendous spiritual catastrophy- meaning, I understand the events of the Revelation not as carnal things, but as spiritual things. For instance, while you expect 1/3 of the population to physically die, I expect 1/3 of the population to spiritually die (this being the loss of the crown of life by the Laodecian-type churches) and these people will be "dead" in the sense of which Christ spoke "Let the dead bury the dead": this widescale spiritual death being caused by the "apostacy" spoken of by Paul. I believe most professing Christians will foresake Christ and enter a covenent with the son of perdition, and that only the small Philadelphia-type Christians will remain faithful to Christ during the time of testing. Again, whereas you see the famine horseman as literal famine, I see him fulfilling this prophecy:

Am 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

And so in this understanding, I am not expecting the wholesale literal catastrophy so many others are expecting; but a wholesale spiritual catastrophy upon the Laodecian-type Christians. Ultimately what I expect is the appearing of a very beautiful tree with very beautiful fruit, and a test to see who will eat from it (the beautiful tree being the one spoken of by Ezekiel called "the Assyrian"):

Eze 31:8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

So whereas you would cry "Oh the physical calamity to come!" I cry "Oh the spiritual calamity to come!" Note this is not to say there would not be physical distress, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in divers places and such; we see that even now, and this I believe to be the "shaking of the earth" but the "shaking of the heavens" to come will not appear to the eyes as physical calamity.

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

So I am not at all expecting comets to hit the earth or thermonuclear holocaust or pole shifts or planet Nibiru or anything of the sort: but should these actually come to pass, I will still pass through them with a smile on my face, knowing full well I dwell under the sheltering wings of the Almighty God. And if we are actually raptured out and avoid it altogether, I suppose I will be flying upward with a smile on my face as well. I will admit that if this transpires, I'll have to do my best not to turn to Paul and ask, "I thought you said no rapture until the destruction of that Wicked?"



I cannot say with certainty of the year; though the Antichrist will come on Tevet 10. Knowing this, I am willing to say I will be quite surprised if Dec 23 of this year is not the coming of the son of perdition and the beginning of the Time of Testing, ending in Sept of 2015. I personally do not believe in a 7-year tribulation, but a 3.5 year Great Tribulation shortened to a little over 3 years (actually running the same length as the military campaign of the King of Babylon in the OT- beginning on Tevet 10 and culminating a little over 3 years later on Av 9; leading into the culmination of the second coming in the 7th month: 2015).

Exactly mollie. The body of Christ must be purged of all Laodecian Christians: only then will the Bride be purified and made ready to marriage.

Wow John! Now I see why your not sweating it about living through the time of Great Tribulation. If you spiritualize everything in Revelation, it doesn't seem so bad. Unfortunately, I have a hard time spiritualizing what is said about this timeframe. Even in Matthew 24, Jesus said this about it:

Matthew 24:21 (KJV) 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 (KJV) 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Notice he said "flesh" not souls. I also have a hard time spiritualizing the following verses:

Revelation 6:12 (KJV) 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 (KJV) 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 (KJV) 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 (KJV) 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 (KJV) 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (KJV) 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I can only see that passage as being a physical and literal judgement from God. After this we have all seven trumpet judgements and the seven vial judgements. I have a hard time believing that those judgements are simply spiritual in nature. I truly believe that as Jesus said "unless those days be shortened, no flesh shall be saved". That means Jesus will return in time to make sure that at least some people will still be alive. I believe at that time Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, and the sheep will enter into his Millenial kingdom, and the goats will be cast into the lake of fire. By the way, I believe the goats will be those who have taken the literal mark of the beast. Anyway, that's how I see it, and why I would not want to be here on earth during the Great Tribulation. God bless!

Kevin

Scripture does teach that overcoming the carnal understanding is not something many would be able to do; but admonishes us to move out of the carnal understanding and translate our understanding into the heavens by way of the spiritual understanding: the mind of Christ. Indeed, the apostle teaches that the carnal understanding leads to death, whereas the spiritual to life and peace; no doubt the carnal understanding is the root of the "strong delusion" spoken of by Paul.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

If you put a little thought into it, you'll also realize that the carnal understanding does a great injustice to the WORD OF GOD in that it attempts to rob it of its majesty, and supplant it with confusion: that is to say, we can understand with either the carnal mind or the spiritual mind, yielding the following:

1. If we attempt to understand with the carnal mind, then the Revelation loses its majesty as the WORD OF GOD: it becomes the feeble attempts of a carnal man despartely groping for insufficient words, trying to describe things beyond his vocabulary- and desparately hoping someone in time will be able to "figure out" what his groping for words really means; the reader, then armed with these feeble and archaic attempts to describe what he is being shown in the visions, sets out on a kind-of "apocalyptic scavenger hunt" looking around and desparately trying to "pin the tail on the possiblity" giving way to a mass of confusion as people pin the tail of the beast on "The EU!" or "Israel!" or "Islam!" or "America!" or "Mississippi!"- the meanwhile none of them having any real certainty about anything that they have concluded: and why should they have any certainty? From their understanding, John's words are feeble, weak and a desperate attempt to convey distant "futuristic" ideas with archaic out-of-date words. The end result? Modern "evangelical eschatology" in all of its confused, divisive, uncertain, groping-in-the-dark-for-answers "glory". There becomes no majesty in the WORD OF GOD.

2. If we understand with the spiritual understanding, then the Revelation is majestic, precise, certain and truly the WORD OF GOD. The words used are not desparate attempts at groping for descriptions; but they are clear and precise covenant language and symbols, correlating themselves with the entire frame of reference coming before, being built up in strength and majesty upon the foundations laid by the prophets and apostles: the reader has no doubts of what is being said, nor is he in need of anything but the WORD OF GOD to understand the clear and precise information being conveyed by the exacting and specific vocabulary being employed by the writer: and knowledge is easily gained, and the reader armed with clarity and certainty in the knowledge of God. These are not the words of a man groping at metaphors in deparate hope someone will one day understand what his archaic scrabblings intend; these are the very words of God, full of majesty and might, directly guiding into truth and understanding, leaving nothing to chance, and nothing to the ability of the reader to "figure out what he thinks the writer might mean with these archaic words"

The choice for me is readily simple: the spiritual understanding.

I would also touch on how the carnal understanding actually causes the minds of men to turn things backwards in their thoughts: you say above how the spiritual understanding makes the great tribulation seem "not so bad" but the truth is the opposite; the flesh profits nothing, and those that fear what comes upon the flesh do not know God. Indeed, I would put the following question to any of like mind who would think, "that's not so bad":

Which would you rather lose: your carnal life, or your spiritual life? Which is the more terrible loss? To lose your carnal life and hear the words "Come, you blessed" or to keep your carnal life intact, and then hear the words "Depart from Me, I never knew you"? Indeed, in truth that the Great Tribulation is a spiritual calamity is infinitely more terrible than a carnal calamity: those who care for the carnal things are not fit for the kingdom of God. Indeed, in the time to come those Christians who have failed the test will stand without the kingdom no doubt lamenting, "Would that it had all been a carnal calamity instead!"

I will also put as a small aside here that- there is a part of me that would enjoy a physically cataclysmic apocalypse, I can envision the exhilirating sight of riding the buckling surface of a pole-shifting earth while blood-red Nibiru pulses in the skies raining meteors and comets from an aurora-blazed canopy as titanic plumes of magma spew skyward and thermonuclear detonations illuminate the landscape: indeed my eyes would be as wide as my smile, at complete peace that passes all understanding, peeping out from under the sheltering wings of Almighty God.

Yet this does not seem to be the case at all, and we should see a spiritual Revelation and not a carnal Revelation.



The key word here is "saved"; what this means is that there would be no one left to be saved from death: it should be noted that "flesh" speaks of people who are not saved- "flesh" (unsaved) is the contrast to "spirit" (saved): and that the elect are not sitting on their hands during the great tribulation, they are rescuing people and fighting against the enemy, pulling down Babylon to the glory of God: indeed, it is the very elect who will "draw their swords" against the son of perdition, and "bring him down into the pit" as is prophsied.

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



These things are all covenant symbols: "seals" signify the opening of knowledge; "sun, moon and stars" signify the tribes of Israel; "mountains and islands" singify kingdoms and nations; "kings, mighty men, rich men" signfiy different offices of Christians ie prophets, pastors, evangelists, "rocks" signify teachers, "to stand" signfies overcoming a testing, etc. All of meanings of all of these words are already laid in the foundation of scripture. The only people who can't understand the meanings of these symbols are the people who don't know the WORD OF GOD: and that is really what this is all about- manifesting who really knows Him, as opposed to those who simply make the claim but lack the knowledge.



Why do you think Jesus would care about carnal life when He so often spoke about how profitless it is?

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



Yes, there will be a separation.



Are you are afraid that God cannot protect you; or that He will not protect you? Or are you afraid of losing your carnal life?

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

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