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While Yahusha/JESUS was alive, He prayed to His Father: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15 (KJV)
Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" Matt. 24:29 (KJV)
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Yahusha/JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT:
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Pray for one another, as we watch for the Lord's return!
I hope he's ready to show some endurance because he's still got a number of years before the rapture: which occurs at the second coming/the parousia of the Lord, as taught by Paul:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The parousia is the second coming; and this is why it is said to be "bright" and "destroys that Wicked" (2 Thess 2:8)
Jonathan is not getting any "promise" from the Lord other than what is promised in the scripture. He is going to bring a lot of lamentation not only on himself, but on others, by constantly crying "It's here!" when the rapture is still a number of years off. We still have to endure the time of testing, and the reign of the King of Confusion.
Re 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
This constant shouting of "rapture rapture" will only cause a lot of grief and dashing of hopes to a lot of people. If anything, prepare for war. When the war begins, all those crying "rapture rapture now" are really going to start lamenting, and without endurance- wither away.
John,
If what your saying is true, then why should we even talk about what's happening in the end times? Let me make something clear! If there is no pre-trib rapture of the bride of Christ, then there is no hope for any of us believers! A post-trib rapture is no rapture at all. There will be none of us left, since we will be killed for not taking the mark of the beast. There is so much more scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture than a post-trib rapture.
Kevin
Greetings Kevin,
I am going to divide this response into two posts:
Firstly I want to say that it is my intent only to edify- people often have a tendency to take these words too personally; but this is not at all my intent: but only to edify. Believe me when I tell you that we all begin in error, and are given the call to come out- it happened to me, it will happen to you, and everyone, sooner or later. Now it is far better to feel the heat of a little fire now, and to change our course toward an outcome in which we receive praise of God, than to let the scales remain upon our eyes, and feel the terrible fire then, when all chance of changing course is lost. Far better to discover error before the time, and change the mind to later hear "Well done faithful servant" than to cling to error until the time one hears "Depart from Me; I never knew you": I am sure you would agree. For instance, you would agree that it better a Jehovah's Witness face his error and repent while still time, than to cling to it until time is up.
John,
I read your reply to me, and I did go through Revelation to study about the fate of tribulation saints. I have never denied the fact that there will be many people left behind that will get saved during the tribulation period. Those tribulation saints will die for their faith in Jesus Christ. They will not take the mark of the beast or worship his image, and they will be killed. Here are the scriptures that show this to be true:
Revelation 13:7 (KJV) 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 (KJV) 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:15 (KJV) 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Revelation 13:16 (KJV) 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 (KJV) 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:18 (KJV) 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.
Revelation 20:4 (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
As you can see, God's word makes it clear that tribulation saints will be beheaded during this time. There is no bubble of supernatural protection for them as there was for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. The only people who will receive supernatural protection during the trib are the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses. Here are the scriptures that point this out:
Revelation 7:3 (KJV) 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 (KJV) 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 9:4 (KJV) 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Now the passage concerning the two witnesses who have a 1260 day ministry:
Revelation 11:3 (KJV) 3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 (KJV) 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Revelation 11:5 (KJV) 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Revelation 11:6 (KJV) 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 11:7 (KJV) 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
So, as you can see, the only people who will be supernaturally protected will be the 144,000 Jews and the two witnesses.
There are some scriptures in Revelation that seem to show those of us who are in heaven and also following Jesus on white horses when he returns to defeat the AC and his armies:
Revelation 7:9 (KJV) 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:13 (KJV) 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 (KJV) 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 19:14 (KJV) 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
There are so many more verses in scripture that point to pre-trib rapture, but it would take all day to present every one of them. My point in this reply is to show you that there will be tribulation saints after the rapture who will be killed during the trib, and there will be 144,000 Jews sealed by God, and they will be supernaturally protected. We who are born again believers now in the last days of the Church Age are the Bride of Christ, and Jesus will snatch away his Bride just as the trib begins. Study the traditional Jewish betrothal and marriage ceremony, and compare it with what Jesus said about his church. Jesus is the bridegroom, and he is following the betrothal and marriage customs completely. God bless you John, and keep your eyes on Jesus!
Kevin
Hello again Kevin,
Yes, I know the teaching well enough. But notice you're not responding to what I said about the rapture itself. All that you're doing now is trying to convey who you think the people in the Revelation are, dividing them into groups, etc. but you'll find that all of the things you're doing are dependant upon the "pre-parousia rapture" and various other teachings first being true; if these aren't true, then all you are doing here is presenting a big misunderstanding of scripture. That being said, the passages I cited are still waiting to be addressed by you: for instance:
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Now, how is it possible to you that Paul admonishes us to put on the whole armour of God in order to withstand in the evil day if we are not even going to see the evil day? So by this single verse alone, I know there is something very wrong with "we will be taken out of the world prior to the evil day"; you see?
Here is my challenge to you, if your doctrine is sound enough to answer: can you provide to any reading this discussion, one single verse which plainly teaches any group of Christians will be taken out of the world, at any time? Just one.
For instance, I say to you, "Be ready to endure; we must withstand in the evil day!" and one ask me, "Where in scripture is this taught?" and I will cite the above Ephesians verse which plainly and simply teaches this truth. Again I will say "As well, we will not be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil" and one ask, "And this is taught where?" and I will cite John 17:15.
Thus my challenge to you is to provide one single passage that clearly teaches what you are preaching, that any group of Christians will ever be "taken out of the world"; bear in mind citing a passage where we see a group of people in heaven does not clearly teach anything other than that there is a group of people in heaven- no such passage is teaching how they got there- you are the one "filling in the blanks" in such a case, not the scripture. A meeting in the air is not a "taking out of the world", a "keeping from the evil" is not a "taking out of the world"; so again, my challenge is that you provide one single verse anywhere in the scripture clearly teaching this that you are preaching, a "taking out of the world" of any group of Christians at any time.
I will say up front that I don't expect you will find such a passage, and all of your understanding of the prophesies are based on a teaching that doesn't exist; making all of your understanding of the prophesies in error because of this. Again, I say these things only to the edification of the body, and can assure you- and anyone reading this (bear in mind I am writing this not only for you, but for the sakes of others)- that these teachings you espouse are not true, and are- in fact- the "strong delusion" spoken of by Paul.
Again, the challenge is one single verse clearly, simply teaching a "taking out of the world" of any group of Christians at any time.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I have to also point out this:
John, I'm going just quoting scripture brother. I think you have not understood the purpose of the trib, which we also know as the 70th week of Daniel. This timeframe has two purposes: fulfill the 70th week of Daniel(Daniel 9:24 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.), and to pour out the wrath of God on a wicked and ungodly world. The church plays no part in this timeframe. This trib timeframe is all about bringing forth a remnant of Israel to finally make an end of sin and to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah. If there was to be a post-trib rapture, when would it happen? Does it happen a few days before Jesus comes riding on the white horse in Revelation 19? How could it possibly happen at the same time Jesus comes back? I can't find scriptures to support that. Who is in the "armies of heaven" behind Jesus? Is that army made up of us or angels?
Here is a scripture passage where Jesus speaks of building mansions for his Bride:
John 14:2 (KJV) 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 (KJV) 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
The following passage is one of my favorites concerning the rapture:
1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
When does that passage get it's fulfillment? Here is another one, which is my absolute favorite passage about the rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Wow, caught up to meet the Lord in the air! When will this happen? Also, we are told to comfort one another with these words! How could we possibly find comfort in these words if we knew that we would suffer and die during the worst time the world has ever seen or will ever see? I just don't get it brother, unless it happens before that trib timeframe.
Many times Jesus compares his coming to a thief in the night. This would have to be speaking of a pre-trib rapture rather than his visible return to earth to destroy the AC and his armies right? How could his second coming on a white horse be compared to coming like a thief in the night? Here is a passage of scripture that makes it clear that his coming for his Bride is like a thief in the night, but the Bride will be watching and ready:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (KJV) 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 (KJV) 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
You see, we will be taken from this world like a thief in the night, but we will be sober and watching for the Lord.
My whole message to born again believers in Jesus Christ is that we should be watching and ready for Jesus to take us home at any time. We know that we are living in the last days prior to the trib, because we can clearly see the signs Jesus told us we would see. He also said when you see these things come to pass, look up, for your redemption draws near. Why would he say that, if he wanted his Bride to get bloodied and killed during the worst days this world will ever see?
One more passage that seems to say that the Bride will not be here for the trib:
Revelation 3:10 (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
You probably know that this was said to the church at Philadelphia. Many of my fellow watchmen believe that the church at Philadelphia represents the true born again believers who will be raptured. Even though I would like to believe that every person who calls themselves a Christian will be raptured or go to heaven when they die, we know that the word Christian is just a generic label. So many people that are church goers are not born again believers! So many of them believe that baby baptism guaranteed them a place in heaven. The church at Philadelphia is much different than the prevalent church at Laodicea we see today. Jesus said he would spew the lukewarm "Christians" out of his mouth.
Well, I hope I made my point better in this reply, but I know we could argue timelines all day long. God bless you John!
Kevin
For the benefit of any reading, I will comment on the other things he has said (yet want to note emphatically that not one single verse has been cited to support the teaching of a "taking out of the world" of anyone at any time).
John,
It's apparent that we can't agree on when the rapture will happen. What you believe is in direct opposition to what the majority of eschatologists believe. If you are correct, we should see the beginning of the trib real soon. I am not trying to instill fear, but I cannot find any scriptural evidence of supernatural protection of born again believers living in that timeframe. Every verse of scripture in reference to saints in Revelation speaks of them being killed for standing up as believers. I realize that to live is Christ and to die as gain. Either way, believers will go to heaven. My only goal is to find the truth in God's word concerning the rapture. God does not pour his wrath out on the righteous, and never has. An example of this was Noah and his family when God destroyed every creature on Earth with a flood. God also saved Lot and his family when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I would expect that God will not leave his saints here to be killed during the trib either. I guess we will just have to see what happens as things play out. By the way, when do you expect the trib to begin?
Kevin
He prefured to suffer with God' people. Heb. 11: 35
Others died under torture, Heb. 11; 35
they were stoned, sawn in two... Heb. 11: 37
Foxes Book of Marters.
some die and some are rescued from the fire, Daniel -
Be willing to die, to give all...
whatever happens hang on
it did not play out like they thought it ought when Jesus died.
Most people believe...
but we follow the narrow way.
Why do I believe what I believe, and is it Bible based?
or the traditions of man or a Hal Lindsey story book?
We are a pre- trib, mid - trib, post trib rapture board,
for we believe what we believe.
some who walk with him suffer, see history and the world today.
Voice of the Marters,
the church in Russia...
and other saints.
The church of suffering is one of the 7 churches.
They got no rebuke.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
Psalm 66:10 For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.
Zechariah 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"
http://bible.cc/isaiah/48-10.htm
fair use for information and discussion
Wow John! Now I see why your not sweating it about living through the time of Great Tribulation. If you spiritualize everything in Revelation, it doesn't seem so bad. Unfortunately, I have a hard time spiritualizing what is said about this timeframe. Even in Matthew 24, Jesus said this about it:
Matthew 24:21 (KJV) 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 (KJV) 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Notice he said "flesh" not souls. I also have a hard time spiritualizing the following verses:
Revelation 6:12 (KJV) 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 (KJV) 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 (KJV) 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 (KJV) 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 (KJV) 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (KJV) 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I can only see that passage as being a physical and literal judgement from God. After this we have all seven trumpet judgements and the seven vial judgements. I have a hard time believing that those judgements are simply spiritual in nature. I truly believe that as Jesus said "unless those days be shortened, no flesh shall be saved". That means Jesus will return in time to make sure that at least some people will still be alive. I believe at that time Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, and the sheep will enter into his Millenial kingdom, and the goats will be cast into the lake of fire. By the way, I believe the goats will be those who have taken the literal mark of the beast. Anyway, that's how I see it, and why I would not want to be here on earth during the Great Tribulation. God bless!
Kevin