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 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thess. 4:16-17 (KJV)

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  9 For God/JESUS hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by JESUS

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10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
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Luke 21:25-28

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 

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28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things
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Ps 122:6

Psa. 122:6   Pray  shalom Jerusalem:3389/3384 (to flow as waters):  prosper love. 7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces. 8 For my brethren and companions’ sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee. 9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.


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The other side of the story: The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

MY NOTE: This article is posted in a spirit of balance and fairness

POSTED 5:00PM EDT 8/24/2011 C. PETER WAGNER


NPR on Wednesday published an article called, "The New Apostolic Reformation: The Evangelicals Engaged in Spiritual Warfare." The article names C. Peter Wagner as the movement's architect and ties Texas Gov. Rick Perry and other politicians to NAR in a negative light. Wagner has been observing how the media is working to taint Christian political candidates with false notions about the NAR and wrote the following article to explain what the NAR is—and what the NAR is not.

Surprisingly, the New Apostolic Reformation has recently become a topic of discussion in the political media. I noticed some mention of it in connection with Sarah Palin’s run for vice president, but I considered it relatively insignificant. Then more talk of the NAR surfaced around Michelle Bachman, but it soared to a new level when Rick Perry entered the race for the Republican nomination for President in August.

The best I can discern, the NAR has become a tool in the hands of certain liberal opponents of the conservative candidates designed to discredit them on the basis of their friendship with certain Christian leaders supposedly affiliated with the NAR. To bolster this attempt, they seek to accuse the NAR of teaching false doctrine and paste on it the label of “cult." For example, Forgotten Word Ministries posts an article by Marsha West expressing concerns about Rick Perry’s prayer assembly in Houston on August 6, that uses the title: “Texas Governor’s Upcoming Leadership Event Includes Cult Members.”

Soon after the event, nothing less than Al-Jazeera News picked up on the theme and posted an article on the NAR under the title “America’s own Taliban.” My name comes up in most of the Internet postings on NAR, but in this one I am called the “intellectual godfather” of the movement. When I read that, I felt that I had a responsibility to attempt to bring some clarification as to what the NAR is, what are its goals, and how these goals are being implemented.

What Is the NAR?
The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam. Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years.

The roots of the NAR go back to the beginning of the African Independent Church Movement in 1900, the Chinese House Church Movement beginning in 1976, the U.S. Independent Charismatic Movement beginning in the 1970s and the Latin American Grassroots Church Movement beginning around the same time. I was neither the founder nor a member of any of these movements, I was simply a professor who observed that they were the fastest growing churches in their respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics.

If I was going to write about this phenomenal move of the Holy Spirit, I knew I had to give it a name. I tried “Postdenominational” but soon dropped it because of the objections of many of my friends who were denominational executives. Then, in 1994, I tested “New Apostolic Reformation.” “Reformation” because the movement matched the Protestant Reformation in world impact; “Apostolic” because of all the changes the most radical one was apostolic governance, which I’ll explain in due time; and “New” because several churches and denominations already carried the name “apostolic,” but they did not fit the NAR pattern. Other names of this movement which are more or less synonymous with NAR have been “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” or “Nondenominational.”

I am rather fascinated at the lists of individuals whom the media glibly connects with the NAR. I’m sure that some of them wouldn’t even recognize the term. In many cases, however, they would fit the NAR template, but since the NAR has no membership list they themselves would need to say whether they consider themselves affiliated or not.

Concerns about the NAR
If the critics are using openness to NAR as a slur against conservative political candidates, they obviously need to verbalize what could be wrong with NAR in the first place. To suppose that NAR is a “cult” or that it teaches “heresy” can be attributed only to sloppy or immature journalism. All too often “heresy” has come to mean only that the person disagrees with me and my friends, but the purpose of using the word is to project guilt by association on the politician. It attempts to implant a question: Who would vote for a heretic? But there is little evidence presented that the issue in question incorporates the doctrinal unorthodoxy of a true heresy. Instead, key words are usually dropped which describe legitimate areas of disagreement among Christian theologians on the level of whether or not we baptize infants. Neither of the opposite positions on matters like this deserve to be placed in the category of heresy.

Let me review the media pieces I have collected and pick out some key words in order to clarify my position. I say “my position,” because others in NAR might not agree with me, and they are not compelled to do so. NAR has no official statements of theology or ecclesiology, although a large number of us do happen to agree upon many somewhat radical conclusions. Most of us have long track records of service within traditional Christianity, and we have needed to go through paradigm shifts to get where we are now. Keep in mind that one of the affects of every paradigm shift is that some people get pulled out of their comfort zones. One of the reasons for opposition to some of the more radical ideas of NAR is that certain people have decided not to change and they are upset with those who have chosen to change.

Apostolic governance. As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul’s words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, “gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry” (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.

I strongly object to journalists using the adjective “self-appointed” or “self-declared” when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is “set in” or “commissioned” to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

The office of prophet. Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, “Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And also: “Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

Dominionism. This refers to the desire that some of my friends and I have to follow Jesus and do what He wants. One of the things He does want He taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This means that we do our best to see that what we know is characteristic of heaven work its way into the warp and woof of our society here on earth. Think of heaven: no injustice, no poverty, righteousness, peace, prosperity, no disease, love, no corruption, no crime, no misery, no racism, and I could go on. Wouldn’t you like your city to display those characteristics?

But where does dominion come in? On the first page of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve to “fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, etc.” (Genesis 1:28). Adam, Eve, and the whole human race were to take dominion over the rest of creation, but Satan entered the picture, succeeded in usurping Adam’s dominion for himself and became what Jesus calls “the ruler of this world” (John 14:30). When Jesus came, He brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.

A theocracy. The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

Extra-biblical revelation. Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.

Supernatural signs and wonders. I have a hard time understanding why some include this in their list of “heresies.” Whenever Jesus sent out His disciples He told them to heal the sick and cast out demons. Why we should expect that He has anything else in mind for us today is puzzling. True, this still pulls some traditionalists out of their comfort zones, but that just goes with the territory. One critic claimed that the NAR has excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. This is purely a judgment call, and it may only mean that we cast out more demons than they do. So what?

Relational Structures
Some of the authors I read expressed certain frustrations because they found it difficult to get their arms around the NAR. They couldn’t find a top leader or even a leadership team. There was no newsletter. The NAR didn’t have an annual meeting. There was no printed doctrinal statement or code of ethics. This was very different from dealing with traditional denominations. The reason behind this is that, whereas denominations are legal structures, the NAR is a relational structure. Everyone is related to, or aligned, with an apostle or apostles. This alignment is voluntary. There is no legal tie that binds it. In fact, some have dual alignment or multiple alignment. Apostles are not in competition with each other, they are in cahoots. They do not seek the best for themselves, but for those who choose to align with them. If the spotlight comes on them, they will accept it, but they do not seek it.

The key to this? The mutual and overriding desire that “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!”

C. Peter Wagner is the president of the Global Harvest Ministries and Chancellor of the Wagner Leadership Institute. Established in 1998, the Institute equips men and women for leadership positions in churches and translocal ministries. It is designed especially, but not exclusively, to meet the needs of leaders who have become a part of the New Apostolic reformation. Missions have been a watermark of Wagner's career. From 1956 to 1971, he and his wife, Doris, served as missionaries in Bolivia under the South American Mission and Andes Evangelical Mission (now SIM International).

Re: The other side of the story: The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult


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Hi Jennice,

Thanks for posting on this site for fairness.

God Bless

Maranatha!!!

Steven

>


Rapture "Forum": In the Spirit of Fairness: "Forum"

Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum-http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.



May 15, 2010 - Click to hear Hour 2
Mike Oppenheimer and Jan discuss the theology of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Are the self-proclaimed apostles today functioning as they did in Bible times? Why are they different and thus proclaim a different gospel? Their leaders say we can return the earth to a "Garden of Eden" stage and that Christ won't return until they do. They will accomplish it through spiritual warfare, signs and wonders. C. Peter Wagner is the head of this movement and most participants who are also in authority are named. Some denominations are sounding a warning to their people about the NAR, including the Assemblies of God. http://www.letusreason.org


July 30, 2011 - Click to hear Hour 1
Part 1: Guest host Brannon Howse and his guest, Justin Peters, take a close look at the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) theology, its leaders, and its purposes. They also focus on the Texas-based prayer rally to be held August 6, called by Gov. Rick Perry. There is a connection between the NAR folks and Word of Faith theology, so that stream is also discussed with many sound bytes played. They raise the question: With some Christians, is the flag put before the cross? Are solid, Bible-believing Christians yoking with questionable Christians to help "save the nation?" Since Christians are called to be salt and light in a confused world, how can we drop out of the political process? This is a highly-informative, fast-paced two hours. http://www.worldviewweekend.com or http://www.justinpeters.org


July 30, 2011 - Click to hear Hour 2
Part 2: Guest host Brannon Howse and his guest, Justin Peters, take a close look at the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) theology, its leaders, and its purposes. They also focus on the Texas-based prayer rally to be held August 6, called by Gov. Rick Perry. There is a connection between the NAR folks and Word of Faith theology, so that stream is also discussed with many sound bytes played. They raise the question: With some Christians, is the flag put before the cross? Are solid, Bible-believing Christians yoking with questionable Christians to help "save the nation?" Since Christians are called to be salt and light in a confused world, how can we drop out of the political process? This is a highly-informative, fast-paced two hours. www.worldviewweekend.com or www.justinpeters.org

Olive Tree Ministries strives to present topics and guests representing sound theology. We may not always agree 100% with something that comes over the airwaves of Understanding the Times radio. Not everyone perceives issues and theology exactly the same. Our guest hosts do share our theology but may have a different take on a specific topic than we do. We appreciate your understanding this.


September 17, 2011 - Click to hear Hour 1
Part 1: Caryl Matrisciana is Jan's guest for two hours. The discussion centers around Caryl's new film, Wide is the Gate: The Emerging New Christianity. They focus on a number of movements that have tried to change the face of Christianity in the last 50 years. These include Eastern mysticism, "purpose driven," Emergent, postmodernism, New Apostolic Reformation, social gospel/social justice, "green Christianity," and more. Why do we need a new kind of Christianity when that old-time religion is fine? Find Caryl's four-hour DVD here You will also find a trailer there and two other products from Caryl. We have a special price on Wide is the Gate. For more information on all of Caryl's products, visit www.caryltv.com



September 17, 2011 - Click to hear Hour 2
Part 2: Caryl Matrisciana is Jan's guest for two hours. The discussion centers around Caryl's new film, Wide is the Gate: The Emerging New Christianity. They focus on a number of movements that have tried to change the face of Christianity in the last 50 years. These include Eastern mysticism, "purpose driven," Emergent, postmodernism, New Apostolic Reformation, social gospel/social justice, "green Christianity," and more. Why do we need a new kind of Christianity when that old-time religion is fine? Find Caryl's four-hour DVD here. You will also find a trailer there and two other products from Caryl. We have a special price on Wide is the Gate. For more information on all of Caryl's products, visit www.caryltv.com




_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum-http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.


If you are new to Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com


I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven


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Re: The other side of the story: The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult


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Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum -For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes



C. Peter Wagner Takes the kingdom message to NPR's "Fresh Air"

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7633

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C. Peter Wagner Takes the kingdom message to NPR's "Fresh Air"


C. Peter Wagner, head of the New Apostolic Reformation, who has been so controversial in the news lately due to his Dominion teachings, was interviewed by Terry Gross on Monday (10-3-11) for National Public Radio's "Fresh Air" program. To read a summary and listen, go to this PAGE. The transcript is available HERE.



In this interview it is very clear that Wagner no longer teaches the biblical message of the Gospel of Salvation. In fact, had he truly believed the biblical Gospel, he would have jumped at the opportunity to take the real Gospel of Jesus to this show's vast audience of "unreached people groups" (a goal he once held as a global mission leader).


Sadly, he let that priceless opportunity go in order to deliver another message -- that of the 7 mountain kingdom he is now working on building here on earth. His comments reflect the extent to which he has bought into the marketing methodology that a paradigm can be shifted if enough critical mass is reached, especially by putting people of influence (otherwise known as "change agents") into positions of power in society. This is how he intends to build his 7 mountain kingdom, he says.


What he doesn't say is that most of his partners in kingdom building have also used extremely strident warfare rhetoric, calling for taking the kingdom by violence. But during the interview Wagner retreats back to the more socially acceptable "kingdom" message. This kingdom gospel is hitched on as a second part of the salvation message. In fact, it has now gained supremacy as the more important message. In this worldview, salvation is only a means to an end. Once people are "saved" (however that is defined), they then become citizens of the new kingdom that is being built on earth. If this sounds a bit like the old Social Gospel message, it is -- but revivified in a new context.


Using a marketing model, Wagner said he is looking for a critical mass in the pervasiveness of the "Christian faith," and for a key placement of individuals to "influence" society as an indicator of kingdom growth:


We believe that through the Christian faith, the blessings of heaven will come down upon whatever people accepts that. Now, that doesn't mean every Japanese has to become a Christian. But that means that the Christian faith - we're looking for the Christian faith to grow in Japan to a point where it has some influence on society, which right now it doesn't. [all emphases added]

Note the unorthodox use of language in the quote below. Wagner refers to a kingdom gospel, and he sees salvation is only one "part of that" message:


Well, first of all, I wouldn't want to give the impression that the NAR denies the plurality of religion. We honor each religion in a society like our American society. However, we feel that - believe in Jesus, and Jesus has told us to go and preach the kingdom of God, and part of that is the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. And people who do not believe in Jesus Christ are not candidates for the kingdom of heaven. So our desire is that everybody be a candidate....[all emphases added]


This is further illustrated when Terry Gross asks Wagner about the 7 mountains of Dominionism:

GROSS: One of the beliefs that unifies people in the New Apostolic Reformation is a belief in dominion, that God gave humans, through Adam and Eve, the responsibility of dominion. God gave man, quote, "dominion over the fish of the sea, over the foul of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." So since you see it as your responsibility of dominion, you've described - people of the New Apostolic Reformation have described this as taking dominion over the, quote, "seven mountains."

So this means taking over dominion over business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, family and religion. How are we to interpret that? What does that mean, taking dominion over these seven areas?

WAGNER: Yeah. Well, that's a fair description of where we're coming from, Terry. In terms of taking dominion, we don't - we wouldn't want to - we use the word dominion, but we wouldn't want to say that we have dominion as if we're the owners or we're the rulers of, let's say, the arts and entertainment mountain.

What we strive to do, and our goal is to have people in the arts and entertainment mountain who are committed to the kingdom of God. So therefore, we use the adjective they're kingdom-minded believers, and we - our goal is to try to have as many kingdom-minded believers in positions of influence in the arts and entertainment mountain as possible. And the reason for that is to help bring the blessings of heaven to all those in the arts and entertainment mountain.[all emphases added]


Aside from Wagner's sudden backpedaling from the term "dominion" (HUH? he wrote an entire book titled Dominion!: How Kingdom Action Can Change the World), note that a key part of this paradigm shift is where entire nations are made into disciples. He says this is spread through the "values of the kingdom," which means somehow mandating that people (both saved and unsaved) experience a worldview and behavioral change over to "kingdom" thinking:


WAGNER: Okay. Now, what I think will happen is that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all nations, that we will begin, as Jesus said to his disciples, begin making disciples of nations. We'll see the values of the kingdom of God spreading. I think the world is going to get better and better, not worse and worse. And I think that...


GROSS: So you don't believe in the rapture and the tribulations.

WAGNER: I used to.

GROSS: But now?

WAGNER: But I don't - I don't see how it fits now into what God is showing us. That's a good question, incidentally. And so I don't - no, I don't believe in that. But what I believe is that I take very seriously, in the book of Acts, what Peter said. Peter said in a speech recorded in the book of Acts - and I've got my Bible. Let me just read that. It said: God may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before - we believe that means that God will send Jesus again - whom heaven must receive, where he is now.

To Read the rest of the article click on this link below:
Wagner's eschatology is also based on marketing's "critical mass" theory -- he believes that when they (his NAR) "restore" this "kingdom" and enforce "his will be done on earth" that then the paradigm will shift. He says "when that happens enough, Jesus will return."




_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum-http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.


If you are new to Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com


I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven


Our NEW URL link
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com