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The book of Second Peter and Jude Authenticate the book of Enoch and Vice Versa
Yahusha/JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT:
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For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm
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Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture
By Peter D. Goodgame
www.redmoonrising.com
Introduction
What's Wrong With the Pre-Trib Rapture?
The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church
The Great Earthquake Resurrection
The Forerunner of the Antichrist
When God's Silence Is Broken: Gog and Magog
Out of Great Tribulation
Conclusio
http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm
Introduction
Since the publication of Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" in 1970 the Pre-Tribulation Rapture has emerged as a popular template for understanding the timeline of apocalyptic events that will take place prior to the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah. These days not all "Christians" truly believe that Jesus will literally return to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, and not all "Christians" look to the book of Revelation as a literal description of the awaited event, but among faithful believers who maintain such beliefs the Pre-Trib Rapture does a good job of explaining the sequence of prophetic events in a logical manner.
Yet the Pre-Trib Rapture, as logical as it may appear to be, is certainly not without its flaws. The very first comprehensive examination of end-times events that I read as a young man was Arnold Fruchtenbaum's The Footsteps of the Messiah. Fruchtenbaum is a staunch Pre-Trib advocate and his book taught me a great deal and gave me a solid foundation for embarking upon my study of end-times prophecy. However, despite my high regard for his study I noticed explanations here and there that didn't seem to add up. For instance, how could the resurrection and rapture precede the seven Trumpets of Revelation yet also take place, as 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us, at the sound of "the last trumpet"? And also, how is it that the resurrection and rapture is taught to take place near the beginning of the book of Revelation in chapter 4, yet a reference to a "first resurrection" can be found at the end of Revelation in chapter 20?
With these issues in mind, as well as a few others, I continued to study the Bible to find reasonable explanations for what I perceived to be minor yet aggravating Pre-Trib flaws. Inevitably, I was drawn to study radically different prophetic models such as the Post-Tribulation Rapture and even the Preterist viewpoint, yet with these interpretations I found that the answers they provided were superficial and came packaged with a host of new problems of their own.
It was around this time, sometime in the mid-1990s, that I came across a new perspective on prophetic events that was known as the Pre-Wrath Rapture, as promoted by Bible scholars Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. While I did not agree with the primary conclusions of this new prophetic model I did believe that it presented a number of new ideas that were worth considering. Unfortunately, as I witnessed the way in which these new ideas were received, it seemed to me that too many Bible scholars were more interested in defending their reputations and their long-held positions than in studying diligently to uncover the truth about what the Bible predicts. Very quickly the tone between the established Pre-Trib camp and the upstart Pre-Wrath camp degenerated to the point of being completely unproductive, with both sides emphasizing the other's flaws, while ignoring or minimizing their own. From my point of view the Pre-Wrath prophetic model was a "one step forward, two steps back" phenomenon. Sure there were inescapable errors in its proposed chronology, but there were also a number of good points that were raised. At that point I thought to myself, why not take that single step forward and see where it leads?
The first stop on that journey came in late 2001 when I published a lengthy study entitled "A Blood Red Moon and the End of Days" on my website at www.redmoonrising.com. This online study received enthusiastic support from readers as well as a great deal of critical yet constructive feedback. From the many positive responses that I received over the next few years I finally became motivated to edit and re-organize the study and turn it into a book. The end result was the publication of Red Moon Rising - the Rapture and the Timeline of the Apocalypse which appeared in early 2005. I believe that it delivers a new and improved approach to understanding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Read on to discover how this new approach makes sense and why it is especially needed today as the old understanding continues to come under attack.
What's Wrong With the Pre-Trib Rapture?
The prophecies of the Bible are like the pieces of a big puzzle. As Bible scholars we do our best to put them together and the picture that comes out is our best guess at understanding the exact sequence of end-times events. In this puzzle there are small pieces and there are big pieces. One of the biggest pieces is the future 70th Week of Daniel, which is also referred to as the "Seven Year Tribulation." Another large section of the puzzle is the sequence of judgments found in the book of Revelation that appear as the seven Seals, seven Trumpets, and seven Bowls. One of the main tasks for Bible scholars is to figure out how the 70th Week fits with the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Once these pieces are fitted together the rest of the puzzle becomes easier to complete.
The current understanding of the Pre-Trib Rapture places the beginning of the 70th Week at the opening of the first Seal and the end of the 70th Week after the pouring out of the seventh Bowl. This is convenient and it seems like a natural fit to have the 70th Week of Daniel begin and end in perfect parallel with the "judgments" of Revelation. Within this framework the first Seal is then explained to represent many things: it represents the appearance of the Antichrist, it represents the beginning of the 70th Week, and it represents the beginning of the "Day of the Lord."
Scripture is clear that the Church is to be protected from the wrath of God that is poured out during the "Day of the Lord." With this fact in mind the Pre-Trib position teaches that the Church is shown in heaven prior to the opening of the first Seal and is represented as the 24 Elders that are first described in Revelation chapter 4. This is a very deeply-held conviction among Pre-Trib scholars and among millions of Christians who hold on to the hope that Jesus will come and save us from the Antichrist and from the terrible events of the Apocalypse. I too have such a hope, and I believe it is a firm hope based on Scripture, but I don't believe that it depends upon identifying the 24 Elders as the Church.
There are several reasons why I cannot agree with the Pre-Trib teaching that the 24 Elders represent the resurrected and raptured Church. The rapture was described by Jesus and by the Apostle Paul, and their descriptions do not agree with the description of the 24 Elders:
Jesus: “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)
Paul: “According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
In the quote from Jesus believers are told about the coming of the Day of the Lord and then they are promised that they will escape from the terrible events of "that day" if they watch and pray and remain alert. Their escape will then allow them to "stand before the Son of Man," which will be fulfilled when the raptured Church enters into heaven. In the quote from Paul we are told that raptured believers will meet the Lord Jesus in the air, after which "we will be with the Lord forever."
These descriptions of the rapture contradict the description of the 24 Elders in two ways: first, the 24 Elders are initially described as sitting on thrones, and not "standing" (perhaps a minor point), and secondly, when the 24 Elders are first mentioned they are shown in heaven apart from the presence of Jesus. They are not "standing" and they are not "before the Son of Man" in any way whatsoever. Indeed, from Revelation 4:4 to 5:5 the 24 Elders are shown in heaven apart from the presence of Jesus. How then can this group "represent" the Church that Paul said would be "with the Lord forever" after the rapture?
To help us solve these problems we turn now to Bible scholar David Lowe who has recently produced the most convincing explanation of Revelation 4-5 that I have ever read. He provides it in his book Earthquake Resurrection, which we will turn to again shortly when we discuss the resurrection and rapture of the Church. According to Lowe, what Revelation 5 describes is the ascension of Jesus and his appearance in heaven that immediately followed Acts 1:9. If Lowe is correct, then the entire fifth chapter of Revelation took place in the first century AD, and the 24 Elders cannot be viewed as the Church.
Lowe refers to Psalm 110, which states that the Messiah would sit at God's right hand, which is a passage that Jesus Himself quotes in Matthew 22:44. In Revelation 5 the seven-sealed scroll of Revelation is introduced, which is held in the right hand of God the Father. Afterwards there is a period of time during which the entire universe is searched for someone worthy to take that scroll. At this failure to find someone worthy John breaks down and weeps out of frustration and sorrow. Clearly the scroll is an important document, and the opening of this scroll seems to be somehow related to the salvation of humanity. Finally, after an undefined period of time, one of the 24 Elders tells John to stop weeping, because Jesus has been found and He is worthy to take the scroll. John then watches as Jesus, the Lamb that had been slain, approaches the right hand of God and takes the scroll. At this the entire heavenly court breaks out in praise and rejoicing and singing: Their song helps to explain the relationship between the seven-sealed scroll, the salvation of humanity, and the sacrifice of Jesus:
"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)
Jesus became worthy to take the scroll the moment that he was sacrificed on the Cross for the sins of humanity. He then descended briefly to hell, He was then resurrected three days later, and then He spent forty days on the earth in His glorified body before ascending to heaven in Acts 1:9. Upon appearing in heaven Jesus immediately approached the right hand of God and took the seven-sealed scroll. After that He took His place at the right hand of God the Father. We know this because Stephen (Acts 7:55-56), Peter (1 Peter 3:22), and Paul (Romans 8:34, Colossians 3:1) all clearly state during their ministries that Jesus is now "at the right hand of God." The book of Hebrews even says that Jesus "is now waiting" at the "right hand of God" until His enemies are made his footstool.
What possible explanation can there be for the "missing Jesus" in the early scenes of Revelation prior to the opening of the first Seal? I think there can only be one answer, and it is that the Apostle John, prior to receiving his vision of what would happen at the end of the age, was first shown a vision of heaven prior to the death of Jesus. Revelation 5 describes a time when no one is found who is worthy to open the scroll, and since Jesus became worthy the moment that He gave up His life on that Cross, we can only conclude that John's vision began at a moment in time prior to the death of Jesus. This allowed John to witness the heavenly scene in the first century AD after Jesus ascended to heaven and took His place at God's right hand. If this is indeed the case then the 24 Elders cannot represent the Church. Perhaps they are "angels" as David Lowe believes, or they may be a group of select Old Testament saints (Moses, Elijah?), pre-Israel saints (Noah, Shem?), and/or pre-Flood Patriarchs (Adam, Enoch?). Their exact identities remain unclear but we can eliminate the possibility that they might represent the Church.
The next major shortcoming of the Pre-Trib Rapture concerns its teaching regarding the period known as the "Day of the Lord." The common teaching is that this "Day" begins with the opening of the first Seal and encompasses the entire 70th Week and all of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Through my study of the Pre-Wrath Rapture I found that this Pre-Trib teaching is completely unsupported by Scripture. In fact, it is by highlighting and capitalizing upon this significant Pre-Trib error that the Pre-Wrath view has been able to gain, as well as maintain, its current level of support among a large number of lay people. Unfortunately Rosenthal and Van Kampen just took their arguments too far.
The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes a step in the right direction when it focuses on the sixth Seal to determine the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The first Seal has nothing to do with it, and everything we know about the Day of the Lord points to the sixth Seal, as the following texts show:
Prediction: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Joel 2:31)
Fulfillment: "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind... " (Revelation 6:12-13)
The prediction given by the Old Testament prophet Joel is clearly fulfilled after the opening of the sixth Seal. The important point to note is that the sign of a darkened sun and blood red moon is said to occur before the coming of the Day of the Lord. Obviously this must mean that the red moon of the sixth Seal either precedes or at least announces the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Therefore the Day of the Lord cannot have begun with the first Seal or with any of the other earlier Seals. The prophet Isaiah helps to pinpoint exactly when the Day of the Lord does begin:
Prediction: "Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty! The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low... The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted... Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth... They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth." (Isaiah 2:10-21)
Fulfillment: "[sixth Seal]...The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains." (Revelation 6:14-15)
The prophet Isaiah tells us that the Day of the Lord will begin when God "rises to shake the earth." He also tells us that mankind will respond to God's actions by fleeing in terror and hiding in caves and holes. The sixth Seal brings about five events, which may occur sequentially or may in fact happen simultaneously: 1) an earthquake, 2) a darkened sun, 3) a blood red moon, 4) a shower of falling stars, and 5) the shaking of the earth. The second and third events fulfill the words of Joel regarding the signs that must precede, or announce the beginning of, the Day of the Lord, and then it is the fifth event that fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the Day of the Lord. This "shaking of the earth" is described by John when he writes that "the sky receded like a scroll and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
In the book of Revelation mankind reacts to the shaking of the earth in the exact manner predicted by the prophet Isaiah—by fleeing in terror to hide in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. However, the verbal response described by John that is heard from mankind gives us the final proof that the shaking of the earth represents the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and the moment at which God's wrath will be felt on a global scale:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?' " (Revelation 6:16-17)
Isaiah spoke about how the Lord Almighty "has a day in store for all the proud and lofty," and after the sixth Seal is opened and the earth is shaken the "proud and lofty" (kings, princes, generals, etc.) then proclaim that this "great day" has come! From all of this evidence I believe that it is a virtually irrefutable Biblical fact that the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal of Revelation.
My study of the Pre-Wrath Rapture helped lead me to these conclusions, yet I am far from agreeing with the Pre-Wrath view overall. Actually, the Pre-Wrath view states that the Day of the Lord begins not within the sixth Seal, but with the opening of the seventh Seal. They are forced into this conclusion because they try to equate the sixth Seal with Matthew 24:29, and they try to equate the rapture of the Church with Matthew 24:31, both of which are serious mistakes. In any case, the Pre-Wrath view deserves credit for focusing on the sixth Seal even if they didn't get everything right.
We have now pinpointed the beginning of the Day of the Lord within the sequence of Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, and soon our task will be to figure out how the sixth Seal and the beginning of the Day of the Lord relates to the timeline of the 70th Week of Daniel. But before we do that, as long as we are on the subject of the Day of the Lord we might as well try to look around for evidence of the resurrection and rapture of the Church. If the Church is not represented by the 24 Elders then where else might we find it?
The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church
There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)
In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:
"Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)
Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."
In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.
The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:
I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.
Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:
http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm
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God Bless
Steven
adding some earlier posts for more informations purposes...
For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_rapture.html
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I am not sure if I was wrong reading it, but is it the last article conclusion in short is:
Pretrib or midtrib all is wrong ...
Only postribulation is the right one ?
Sorry, I didn't read in full but glancely, just very long, but some early pages of the last article I read it through, when debunking pretrib or midtrib or prewrath.
I got confused with its relatedness to the title threat.
Hi Gimel,
Great questions.......
I like to post different points of view and scripture interpretation to help us to be Apologists (Defending our beliefs )
I believe that through prayerfully reading the scriptures (Hebrew & Greek meanings) will help us to better divide the WORD of God with the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.
Pre Tribulation
Mid Tribulation
Pre Wrath
Post Tribulation
positions all have holes so by reading and having this forum we can discuss and grow in our faith.
Some people want to say they have all the answers and will not allow discussion ( Pre Trib ONLY , Mid Trib ONLY, Pre Wrath ONLY, Post Trib ONLY sites) on this matter but I think we can grow by studying the WORD and praying for revelation and illumination of the scriptures, thus it will help us to evangelize all that God brings to us to share the Gospel.
Let us all exhort, edify and encourage without fighting each other over the scriptures and may the LORD BE GLORIFIED!!!
I pray that the posts today will benefit all who read and study the scriptures.
God Bless
Maranatha!!!
Steven
For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2011/candace829-2.htm
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Candace (29 Aug 2011)
"Rapture debate"
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Hi doves I was watching Perry Stones old manna fest programs on you tube the other day and he said people write him and call him a heretic because he is pre trib rapture. He said he is not a heretic because he has a different opinion. It seems to me over the last couple of years people have forgotten what the unpardonable sin is. The unpardonable sin is rejecting Jesus not having a different opinion on the time of the rapture. There are people on here that believe the trib has started,does that make them ****ed and false because that's not what you believe. Are people wrong and false because they are of a different denomination? Have a different opinion about time? Etc........ I could go on and on. If someone said there is no rapture then yes that's false becomes the bible is completely clear on it but whether you believe its pre mid or post trib we all know it will happen. I am one who agrees with some on here the trib has begun and I don't think the ones that disagree with me are any less then me its a different OPINION. God does not judge us on our opinion,only God knows each of our hearts.The bottom line is the heart. Years ago at my old church we would have fellowship and talk about the bible we loved our neighbors as ourselves now all I here christians do is bicker and argue about who's right and who's wrong who's real who's false when they don't know the others heart. If there is any person on this earth that knows the complete bible just like Jesus himself then please let me know because I didn't know there was a human that has the complete knowledge like God other than Jesus God himself.I understand there are many wrong views and false prophets but it seems these days its the popular saying of they are wrong they are false. We have to watch for him because it could be anytime. I think this is a plan of satan where we can't even give our christian opinions anymore without someone putting us down. I don't agree with a lot of other peoples views I don't think anyone agrees with another on everything but the one thing I will always agree on is there is a heaven there is hell Jesus is savior and he is coming(IF YOU LOVE HIM HE LOVES YOU) and he knows which way it is because he knows your heart
God bless the doves
Candace
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I thought this post is very appropriate....
Not only the rapture ( Pre , Mid, Pre Wrath, Post )
but denominations, speaking in tongues, baptism,
Age of Jesus and all sorts of other topics seem to turn into an opportunity for Satan to divide the church.
Awaiting the rapture so everyone will finally see clearly and all the bickering will be over.
Until then will it would be nice to see Christians, encourage, edify and exhort one another in our last days on earth.
Righteous vs right?
Grace vs right?
Grace in this context is something that is God-given, made possible only by Jesus Christ and none other. It is God's gift of salvation granted to sinners for their salvation.
The Christian teaching is that grace is unmerited mercy that God gave to us by sending his son to die on a cross to give us eternal salvation.
(which will we choose?)
Maranatha!!!
Steven
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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
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Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.
If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at
stevensandiego@ymail.com
I will send you a PASSWORD
Ybic
Steven
Thanks Steven,
Agree with you we should have open mind to many opinions but stand still in what we believe. I myself a little mixed of pretrib and prewrath but not postrib.
Anyway I have read many of postrib too ...
GBU
Gimel
For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2011/sherryv831-2.htm
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Sherry Vance (31 Aug 2011)
"Reply to Mercer (27 Aug 2011) "Sherry Vance-Lewis Brackett""
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Dear Mercer;
I would have replied sooner but the recent "Hurricane Irene" blew out our power!
Lewis's statement (and yours) that we are not in the "tribulation" is indeed correct!
The period of "Great tribulation" has not yet begun....but the 70th Week HAS! The misunderstanding is that the tribulation is a 7 year period, when it is not. The 70th WEEK is a 7 year time period. That 7 year time period is a normal passage of time. It operates on the Gregorian calendar of 365 days per year but also contained within it will be the prophetic appointed time period of "great tribulation," referred to as a time, times, and half a time, or 1260 days, or 42 months. But that prophetic time determined and appointed by God for His Plan to fulfill Daniel 9:24 still runs within the time of the regular normal year. So since we are not yet IN the midst of the week when the prophetic time period will begin, then we are indeed NOT YET IN THE (great) "TRIBULATION."
The intention of my previous post (and this one) was neither to promote nor defend Godstimeline; however, I must say that Godstimeline, as far as the material posted there, has not "failed" except for the error that was made in setting speculative dates for the possibility of the Resurrection/Rapture. And, to be sure, many others have also speculated and shared possible dates without accusations against them or dismissal of everything they shared. But, if you or anyone else have re-visited Godstimeline lately, you will see this:
My apologies for any speculative days/ dates from Jan.27th through Feb.18th 2011, in regard to the possibility of Jesus Christ coming for the "resurrection/ Rapture"! At the time I didn't know that they were to be connected to Nissan in the Book of Esther and the time of the Passover connected to the Purim's of both Adar 1 and Adar 2!!
And with regard to the connection between the Resurrection/Rapture to Nissan, Esther, Passover and Purim, a link is offered for anyone who wishes to understand the logical relation and sequence of its contextual resemblance. > The Purim Connection to the Rapture? However, as I said, I am simply posting what I believe to be true....and that is to first basically understand that the 70th Week is simply a passage of time, while inside that time is running a prophetic appointed time period that quite scripturally begins in the midst of the 70th Week, and which is called (by Jesus Himself) "a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor ever will see again..." (Matt.24:21)
No, Mercer, what's going on in the world does not make me think we are "IN the "tribulation." I know what we are experiencing and it is called the birth pangs of the Messiah....the beginning of sorrows (Matt. 24/25) >>> wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilences, earthquakes in divers places, false prophets, deception, the love of many waxing cold, etc......all while most of us are still enjoying most of the same blessings we've always had (marriage, giving in marriage, eating, drinking, one merriment after another - JUST LIKE IN THE DAYS OF NOAH! But, as you said, these are not the days of tribulation and I agree because the days of great tribulation begin with JUDGMENT!.....the Opening of the Seals, the revelation of the antichrist, etc. etc.....a time such as the world has never seen nor ever will again. And that great time of tribulation begins in the midst of the 70th Week.
The middle of the 70th Week is the 4th year of the 7 years. The middle year will begin on Rosh Hashanah, September 29, 2011 and run until Rosh HaShanah, September 17, 2012. Sometime in the midst of the Week, or more specifically> sometime between, or in the midst of, Rosh HaShanah 2011 and Rosh Hashanah 2012, (which is about April/Nissan/Passover season) satan will be cast out of the Heavens, to the Earth. He will be granted 1260 days/42 months to "conquer" and he will empower the antichrist to accomplish it.
I don't expect to "be here" when the antichrist is revealed because Paul said "The Day of the Lord will not come until The man of lawlessness is revealed. This is the same as saying the antichrist's revelation will come FIRST and then the Day of the Lord (meaning the great tribulation) will start. That makes sense because until the antichrist is revealed - in the midst of the Week - AFTER Satan is cast down and empowers him - only then can the great tribulation begin !
And just what comes even before satan is cast down?......the two witnesses! How do we know this? Because their ministry is 1260 days, the same as the antichrist's reign. HOWEVER, the antichrist kills them BEFORE the END of HIS 1260 day reign.....so they must arrive and begin their ministry BEFORE the antichrist is revealed!!! Now I think we will be gone either at the time the witnesses come down or shortly afterward - but before the antichrist is revealed! Personally, I'd like to see the witnesses before I go up, as long as I go up before the man of lawlessness is revealed (when he commits the abomination)......although for me, his identity is clear already.
Yes, Mercer, Noah was shut in the ark before the flood and Lot was dragged out of Sodom, and He even protected the harlot Rahab. But we aren't going to be shut in or dragged out and we don't have to hang a scarlet cord out the window to show Him where we are! We are going to simply vanish out of here faster than the twinkling of an eye! And we will be GONE in the midst of the week, before the revelation of the antichrist and before the period of great tribulation!
The word "hope" in Hebrew is “yachal”, meaning “trust." The Blessed Hope is more than looking for the Rapture. The Blessed Hope is the TRUST that Jesus is returning to this earth VERY SOON!
Mercer, you warned me not to be "dogmatic" (which means to make an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles) regarding being in the tribulation, please stop and consider you misunderstood that I said we are in the tribulation. I am saying we are NOT in the (great/1260 day) tribulation YET. But on the other hand, let's not be "dogmatic" about a so-called 7 year tribulation either - especially when there isn't a single scripture verse to prove it.
Sherry Vance
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Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
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