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The "Resurrection" has been erroneously labeled The "Rapture". 
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WE STARTED OUT BELIEVING IN A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE
BUT FOUND OVER TIME AROUND 2006 THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT SHARE A 
BIBLE VERSE WHATSOEVER INDICATING A 7 YR PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE

BIBLE VERSES EVIDENCE:

While Yahusha/JESUS was alive, He prayed to His Father: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  John 17:15 (KJV)

Yahusha/JESUS gave signs of what must happen before His Return:  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  Matt. 24:29 (KJV)


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Yahusha is I Am That I Am  (Exodus 3:14)

Yahusha is YHWH  come in the flesh, He put aside His Diety to become a human, born of  a Virgin.

Yahusha is the Word, As The Most High, He spoke all things seen and unseen into existence

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John 14:26
"the breath of life"

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THE BOOK OF ENOCH

NOW IS THE TIME!

 FOR A REMOTE GENERATION THE LAST GENERATION FOR THE ELECT!

REFERENCES IN THE BOOK OF ENOCH TO THE BIBLE

https://bookofenochreferences.wordpress.com/category/the-book-of-enoch-with-biblical-references-chapters-1-to-9/chapter-1/

Book of Enoch: http://tinyurl.com/BkOfEnoch

The book of Second Peter and Jude Authenticate the book of Enoch and Vice Versa

Yahusha/JESUS QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT:

THE APOSTLES QUOTED FROM THE SEPTUAGINT

JEWS WERE CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY

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Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

By Peter D. Goodgame
www.redmoonrising.com


Introduction
What's Wrong With the Pre-Trib Rapture?
The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church
The Great Earthquake Resurrection
The Forerunner of the Antichrist
When God's Silence Is Broken: Gog and Magog
Out of Great Tribulation
Conclusio

http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm

Introduction

Since the publication of Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" in 1970 the Pre-Tribulation Rapture has emerged as a popular template for understanding the timeline of apocalyptic events that will take place prior to the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah. These days not all "Christians" truly believe that Jesus will literally return to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, and not all "Christians" look to the book of Revelation as a literal description of the awaited event, but among faithful believers who maintain such beliefs the Pre-Trib Rapture does a good job of explaining the sequence of prophetic events in a logical manner.

Yet the Pre-Trib Rapture, as logical as it may appear to be, is certainly not without its flaws. The very first comprehensive examination of end-times events that I read as a young man was Arnold Fruchtenbaum's The Footsteps of the Messiah. Fruchtenbaum is a staunch Pre-Trib advocate and his book taught me a great deal and gave me a solid foundation for embarking upon my study of end-times prophecy. However, despite my high regard for his study I noticed explanations here and there that didn't seem to add up. For instance, how could the resurrection and rapture precede the seven Trumpets of Revelation yet also take place, as 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us, at the sound of "the last trumpet"? And also, how is it that the resurrection and rapture is taught to take place near the beginning of the book of Revelation in chapter 4, yet a reference to a "first resurrection" can be found at the end of Revelation in chapter 20?

With these issues in mind, as well as a few others, I continued to study the Bible to find reasonable explanations for what I perceived to be minor yet aggravating Pre-Trib flaws. Inevitably, I was drawn to study radically different prophetic models such as the Post-Tribulation Rapture and even the Preterist viewpoint, yet with these interpretations I found that the answers they provided were superficial and came packaged with a host of new problems of their own.

It was around this time, sometime in the mid-1990s, that I came across a new perspective on prophetic events that was known as the Pre-Wrath Rapture, as promoted by Bible scholars Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. While I did not agree with the primary conclusions of this new prophetic model I did believe that it presented a number of new ideas that were worth considering. Unfortunately, as I witnessed the way in which these new ideas were received, it seemed to me that too many Bible scholars were more interested in defending their reputations and their long-held positions than in studying diligently to uncover the truth about what the Bible predicts. Very quickly the tone between the established Pre-Trib camp and the upstart Pre-Wrath camp degenerated to the point of being completely unproductive, with both sides emphasizing the other's flaws, while ignoring or minimizing their own. From my point of view the Pre-Wrath prophetic model was a "one step forward, two steps back" phenomenon. Sure there were inescapable errors in its proposed chronology, but there were also a number of good points that were raised. At that point I thought to myself, why not take that single step forward and see where it leads?

The first stop on that journey came in late 2001 when I published a lengthy study entitled "A Blood Red Moon and the End of Days" on my website at www.redmoonrising.com. This online study received enthusiastic support from readers as well as a great deal of critical yet constructive feedback. From the many positive responses that I received over the next few years I finally became motivated to edit and re-organize the study and turn it into a book. The end result was the publication of Red Moon Rising - the Rapture and the Timeline of the Apocalypse which appeared in early 2005. I believe that it delivers a new and improved approach to understanding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Read on to discover how this new approach makes sense and why it is especially needed today as the old understanding continues to come under attack.


What's Wrong With the Pre-Trib Rapture?

The prophecies of the Bible are like the pieces of a big puzzle. As Bible scholars we do our best to put them together and the picture that comes out is our best guess at understanding the exact sequence of end-times events. In this puzzle there are small pieces and there are big pieces. One of the biggest pieces is the future 70th Week of Daniel, which is also referred to as the "Seven Year Tribulation." Another large section of the puzzle is the sequence of judgments found in the book of Revelation that appear as the seven Seals, seven Trumpets, and seven Bowls. One of the main tasks for Bible scholars is to figure out how the 70th Week fits with the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Once these pieces are fitted together the rest of the puzzle becomes easier to complete.

The current understanding of the Pre-Trib Rapture places the beginning of the 70th Week at the opening of the first Seal and the end of the 70th Week after the pouring out of the seventh Bowl. This is convenient and it seems like a natural fit to have the 70th Week of Daniel begin and end in perfect parallel with the "judgments" of Revelation. Within this framework the first Seal is then explained to represent many things: it represents the appearance of the Antichrist, it represents the beginning of the 70th Week, and it represents the beginning of the "Day of the Lord."

Scripture is clear that the Church is to be protected from the wrath of God that is poured out during the "Day of the Lord." With this fact in mind the Pre-Trib position teaches that the Church is shown in heaven prior to the opening of the first Seal and is represented as the 24 Elders that are first described in Revelation chapter 4. This is a very deeply-held conviction among Pre-Trib scholars and among millions of Christians who hold on to the hope that Jesus will come and save us from the Antichrist and from the terrible events of the Apocalypse. I too have such a hope, and I believe it is a firm hope based on Scripture, but I don't believe that it depends upon identifying the 24 Elders as the Church.

There are several reasons why I cannot agree with the Pre-Trib teaching that the 24 Elders represent the resurrected and raptured Church. The rapture was described by Jesus and by the Apostle Paul, and their descriptions do not agree with the description of the 24 Elders:

Jesus: “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)

Paul: “According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

In the quote from Jesus believers are told about the coming of the Day of the Lord and then they are promised that they will escape from the terrible events of "that day" if they watch and pray and remain alert. Their escape will then allow them to "stand before the Son of Man," which will be fulfilled when the raptured Church enters into heaven. In the quote from Paul we are told that raptured believers will meet the Lord Jesus in the air, after which "we will be with the Lord forever."

These descriptions of the rapture contradict the description of the 24 Elders in two ways: first, the 24 Elders are initially described as sitting on thrones, and not "standing" (perhaps a minor point), and secondly, when the 24 Elders are first mentioned they are shown in heaven apart from the presence of Jesus. They are not "standing" and they are not "before the Son of Man" in any way whatsoever. Indeed, from Revelation 4:4 to 5:5 the 24 Elders are shown in heaven apart from the presence of Jesus. How then can this group "represent" the Church that Paul said would be "with the Lord forever" after the rapture?

To help us solve these problems we turn now to Bible scholar David Lowe who has recently produced the most convincing explanation of Revelation 4-5 that I have ever read. He provides it in his book Earthquake Resurrection, which we will turn to again shortly when we discuss the resurrection and rapture of the Church. According to Lowe, what Revelation 5 describes is the ascension of Jesus and his appearance in heaven that immediately followed Acts 1:9. If Lowe is correct, then the entire fifth chapter of Revelation took place in the first century AD, and the 24 Elders cannot be viewed as the Church.

Lowe refers to Psalm 110, which states that the Messiah would sit at God's right hand, which is a passage that Jesus Himself quotes in Matthew 22:44. In Revelation 5 the seven-sealed scroll of Revelation is introduced, which is held in the right hand of God the Father. Afterwards there is a period of time during which the entire universe is searched for someone worthy to take that scroll. At this failure to find someone worthy John breaks down and weeps out of frustration and sorrow. Clearly the scroll is an important document, and the opening of this scroll seems to be somehow related to the salvation of humanity. Finally, after an undefined period of time, one of the 24 Elders tells John to stop weeping, because Jesus has been found and He is worthy to take the scroll. John then watches as Jesus, the Lamb that had been slain, approaches the right hand of God and takes the scroll. At this the entire heavenly court breaks out in praise and rejoicing and singing: Their song helps to explain the relationship between the seven-sealed scroll, the salvation of humanity, and the sacrifice of Jesus:

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

Jesus became worthy to take the scroll the moment that he was sacrificed on the Cross for the sins of humanity. He then descended briefly to hell, He was then resurrected three days later, and then He spent forty days on the earth in His glorified body before ascending to heaven in Acts 1:9. Upon appearing in heaven Jesus immediately approached the right hand of God and took the seven-sealed scroll. After that He took His place at the right hand of God the Father. We know this because Stephen (Acts 7:55-56), Peter (1 Peter 3:22), and Paul (Romans 8:34, Colossians 3:1) all clearly state during their ministries that Jesus is now "at the right hand of God." The book of Hebrews even says that Jesus "is now waiting" at the "right hand of God" until His enemies are made his footstool.

What possible explanation can there be for the "missing Jesus" in the early scenes of Revelation prior to the opening of the first Seal? I think there can only be one answer, and it is that the Apostle John, prior to receiving his vision of what would happen at the end of the age, was first shown a vision of heaven prior to the death of Jesus. Revelation 5 describes a time when no one is found who is worthy to open the scroll, and since Jesus became worthy the moment that He gave up His life on that Cross, we can only conclude that John's vision began at a moment in time prior to the death of Jesus. This allowed John to witness the heavenly scene in the first century AD after Jesus ascended to heaven and took His place at God's right hand. If this is indeed the case then the 24 Elders cannot represent the Church. Perhaps they are "angels" as David Lowe believes, or they may be a group of select Old Testament saints (Moses, Elijah?), pre-Israel saints (Noah, Shem?), and/or pre-Flood Patriarchs (Adam, Enoch?). Their exact identities remain unclear but we can eliminate the possibility that they might represent the Church.

The next major shortcoming of the Pre-Trib Rapture concerns its teaching regarding the period known as the "Day of the Lord." The common teaching is that this "Day" begins with the opening of the first Seal and encompasses the entire 70th Week and all of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Through my study of the Pre-Wrath Rapture I found that this Pre-Trib teaching is completely unsupported by Scripture. In fact, it is by highlighting and capitalizing upon this significant Pre-Trib error that the Pre-Wrath view has been able to gain, as well as maintain, its current level of support among a large number of lay people. Unfortunately Rosenthal and Van Kampen just took their arguments too far.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes a step in the right direction when it focuses on the sixth Seal to determine the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The first Seal has nothing to do with it, and everything we know about the Day of the Lord points to the sixth Seal, as the following texts show:

Prediction: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Joel 2:31)

Fulfillment: "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind... " (Revelation 6:12-13)

The prediction given by the Old Testament prophet Joel is clearly fulfilled after the opening of the sixth Seal. The important point to note is that the sign of a darkened sun and blood red moon is said to occur before the coming of the Day of the Lord. Obviously this must mean that the red moon of the sixth Seal either precedes or at least announces the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Therefore the Day of the Lord cannot have begun with the first Seal or with any of the other earlier Seals. The prophet Isaiah helps to pinpoint exactly when the Day of the Lord does begin:

Prediction: "Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty! The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low... The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted... Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth... They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth." (Isaiah 2:10-21)

Fulfillment: "[sixth Seal]...The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains." (Revelation 6:14-15)

The prophet Isaiah tells us that the Day of the Lord will begin when God "rises to shake the earth." He also tells us that mankind will respond to God's actions by fleeing in terror and hiding in caves and holes. The sixth Seal brings about five events, which may occur sequentially or may in fact happen simultaneously: 1) an earthquake, 2) a darkened sun, 3) a blood red moon, 4) a shower of falling stars, and 5) the shaking of the earth. The second and third events fulfill the words of Joel regarding the signs that must precede, or announce the beginning of, the Day of the Lord, and then it is the fifth event that fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the Day of the Lord. This "shaking of the earth" is described by John when he writes that "the sky receded like a scroll and every mountain and island was removed from its place."

In the book of Revelation mankind reacts to the shaking of the earth in the exact manner predicted by the prophet Isaiah—by fleeing in terror to hide in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. However, the verbal response described by John that is heard from mankind gives us the final proof that the shaking of the earth represents the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and the moment at which God's wrath will be felt on a global scale:

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?' " (Revelation 6:16-17)

Isaiah spoke about how the Lord Almighty "has a day in store for all the proud and lofty," and after the sixth Seal is opened and the earth is shaken the "proud and lofty" (kings, princes, generals, etc.) then proclaim that this "great day" has come! From all of this evidence I believe that it is a virtually irrefutable Biblical fact that the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal of Revelation.

My study of the Pre-Wrath Rapture helped lead me to these conclusions, yet I am far from agreeing with the Pre-Wrath view overall. Actually, the Pre-Wrath view states that the Day of the Lord begins not within the sixth Seal, but with the opening of the seventh Seal. They are forced into this conclusion because they try to equate the sixth Seal with Matthew 24:29, and they try to equate the rapture of the Church with Matthew 24:31, both of which are serious mistakes. In any case, the Pre-Wrath view deserves credit for focusing on the sixth Seal even if they didn't get everything right.

We have now pinpointed the beginning of the Day of the Lord within the sequence of Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, and soon our task will be to figure out how the sixth Seal and the beginning of the Day of the Lord relates to the timeline of the 70th Week of Daniel. But before we do that, as long as we are on the subject of the Day of the Lord we might as well try to look around for evidence of the resurrection and rapture of the Church. If the Church is not represented by the 24 Elders then where else might we find it?


The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church

There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:

“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)

In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:

"Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)

Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."

In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.

The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:

I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.

Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:

http://www.redmoonrising.com/mult-trib.htm

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God Bless
Steven

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

adding some earlier posts for more informations purposes...

mike
Pls note that the Horse in Seal VIDEO represent WORLD WAR.

Remember Jesus rode on baby Donkey in 1st Coming into Jerusalem as KING?

JESUS came riding on DONKEY as PEACE in 1st Coming to die as Suffering KING.

JESUS will come riding on HORSE as WAR in 2nd Coming to reign as Conquering KING of Kings.

So to interpret the 4 Horses...
white horse is WW1 from 1914AD till 1918AD
red horse is WW2 from 1939AD till 1945AD
black horse is WW3 from 2001AD till 2011AD?
pale horse is WW4 from 2011AD till 2018AD?

THE start of Chronological SEAL IS the 5th Seal 'ALTAR of SOULs' which started 2000years ago and ending in 2011AD...

THE end of Chronological SEAL IS the 7th Seal 'SHAKING OF HEAVEN & EARTH' event...THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD!...in 2011AD? (no POLE SHIFT YET since EARTH will spin faster and so DAYs shortened as PROPHESIED by JESUS CHRIST)

THE half hour SILENCE in HEAVEN may have begun when DANIEL's 70th WEEK started...

This senario is the BEST interpretation and understanding of the 7 SEALS being VISUALISED...just like VIDEO playback of the HIDDEN PROPHECY OF GOD for the LAST DAYS (3000years)

"All Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"Matthew 28:18b-20

Note that Christ has already received ALL POWER after HIS Resurrection and we are commanded to TEACH, and BAPTISE ALL nations until HE COMES.

THE LAST DAYS started 2000years ago...and is ENDING SOON.

EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS!



mike
Just to remind everyone that

(A) Trumpet Judgment (is 1st Wrath of God) which marks the 7shortened-year-period and is before

(B) Vial Judgment (2nd Wrath of God) which is at the end of those days.

pls note also that Gog/Magog WAR in Ezekiel chapters 38,39 has to be fulfilled...7year burning of weapons...Russia&allies had to be destroyed before AntiChrist could really control WHOLE world, agree?

So DAY of the LORD has 2 or more fulfillments, agree?


I believe the 7 seals being opened by JESUS CHRIST showing VISIONs and NOT Judgments upon the EARTH...
it is the persecutions of devil upon Believers...
the Birthpangs before JESUS RAPTURE HIS Bride...
then WRATH of GOD starts...

We are NOW so very close to the BIRTH of the MAN-CHILD...PreWrath Rapture!

PreWrath Rapture is during 6th Seal prior to Trumpet Judgment and is possibly already inside Tribulation period. Mid-trib?

It is possibly also Pre-Trib because there is a period of 'shortened' DAYs whereby scientifically speaking...the Earth spins faster and POLE-SHIFT had not yet occured.

If POLE-SHIFT occurs on the 6th Seal...Almost >90% of world would be destroyed as in Noah's time.


There would be NO POLE-SHIFT yet...although 1/3 of the EARTH may have been destroyed by this Judgment. Heaven&Earth melt with fervent heat...the 2/3 of EARTH Left...see photo of 1/3 destruction...

http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730271?i=41536745

http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730271?i=41536745

It is therefore NOT PostTrib yet.

(1) there will be at least 1263.5days before 2Witnesses prophesied,killed & 'Rapture?'

(2) there will be 42months(may NOT be 1260days) that the beast would continue to WAR against the REST of those who hold the WORD of GOD.

(3) there will be 1260days(shortened days?)whereby the WOMAN(ISRAEL) flees into the wilderness after the Abomination of desolation.

(4) there will be 2300days(shortened days?) of Daniel's book whereby the Sanctuary(temple mount) and Host(IDF) being trodden under foot? see Daniel 8:11-14

NOTE:_ (1), (2) & (3) may overlap and not necessary be in sequence or not even parallel.

NOTE:_ (4) may be the entire 7year shortened days period.

see website or download for more details:-
www.simplesite.com/7churches

Then there will be PreWrath Rapture again?
before 2nd Wrath of GOD poured out with Great EARTHquake destroying WHOLE EARTH's islands&mountains...

I believe that is a POLE SHIFT due to PLANET approaching very near EARTH since JESUS CHRIST is descending from PLANET CHRIST with RAPTURED SAINTs and ANGELS.



Those Days Compared
http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730292


disussion about 6th seal event...
mike
Need to remind that tribulation of those days have multiple meanings depending on how our God Jesus meant by the TERM 'tribulation'.

1) If Jesus meant that from Israel being rejected and Church Age was already in 'Tribulation'...then those days refers to 2000years of GRACE period being ENDED with PreWrath-RAPTURE!. This is possibly 6th SEAL EVEnt.

2) There is another 'Tribulation' which Jesus had chosen to use to mean 'Great Tribulation' of those DAYs too...so this is why Jesus used this VERSE after the 'Abomination of desolation' verse.
This would be gathering of ELECTS...Great Tribulation Saints and Israel remnants...

3) There could be also PreWrath-RAPTURE on the 1263.5day after 2witnesses killed and voice calling them to COME UP to HEAVEN...is this event after Abomination of Desolation?

Pls note : 'Time, Times, half a Time' was used few times in the Bible by Daniel and John in Revelation...
a) Could this mean RAPTURE events?
b) Could this mean 1st time period,2nd time period, and half the time period?
c) Could this mean 1st time Rapture, 2nd time Rapture, 3rd time GATHERING?
d) Could this mean 1x , 2x , 0.5x = 3.5x?
e) Could this mean 1000years(millenium after satan released), 2000years(this church-grace period), 500years(since Northern Israel in captivity)?

see...there are many possibe meanings...

---------------------------------------
Need to remind ALSO that There will be at least 6more years (shortened period) just like a PARALLEL in 2 KINGS chapter 11:1-21

2Kings:11:1: "And when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the seed royal.

2: But Jehosheba, the daughter of king Joram, sister of Ahaziah, took Joash [man-child,CHURCH?] the son of Ahaziah and stole him from among the king's sons which were slain; and they hid him, even him and his nurse, in the bedchamber from Athaliah, so that he was not slain.

3: And he[man-child,CHURCH?] was with her hid in the house of the LORD six years. And Athaliah did reign over the land.

4: And the seventh year Jehoiada[JESUS?] sent and fetched the rulers over hundreds, with the captains and the guard, and brought them to him into the house of the LORD, and made a covenant with them, and took an oath of them in the house of the LORD, and shewed them the king's son.

5: And he commanded them, saying, This is the thing that ye shall do; A third part of you that enter in on the sabbath shall even be keepers of the watch of the king's house;

6: And a third part shall be at the gate of Sur; and a third part at the gate behind the guard: so shall ye keep the watch of the house, that it be not broken down.

7: And two parts of all you that go forth on the sabbath, even they shall keep the watch of the house of the LORD about the king.

8: And ye shall compass the king around about, every man with his weapons in his hand: and he that cometh within the ranges, let him be slain: and be ye with the king as he goeth out and as he cometh in.

9: And the captains over the hundreds did according to all things that Jehoiada the priest commanded: and they took every man his men that were to come in on the sabbath, with them that should go out on the sabbath, and came to Jehoiada the priest.

10: And to the captains over hundreds did the priest give king David's spears and shields, that were in the temple of the LORD.

11: And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple.

12: And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.

13: And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD.

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_rapture.html
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The Rapture..

Carol Brooks

“Today’s church wants to be raptured from responsibility.” [Leonard Ravenhill]

ON THIS PAGE

Introduction
Does It Matter?
Beliefs of The Early Church
A Short History of Pre-Tribulationism
Explicit Teachings
Proof Texts For a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?
The Rapture Vs. The Second Coming?
Raptured! But Where Are We Going?
The Greek Word… Apantesis
A Secret Rapture?
Those Three Greek Words.
Conclusion


Introduction
While several explicit and unassailable teachings of the Bible are almost universally agreed on by the church…

At the close of this age, there will be a period of great tribulation...

Christ will return to this earth one day…

We believers will be resurrected or changed, depending on if we are still living when He comes. Those that are alive do not suffer physical death, while believers that have already died will have their bodies resurrected.

There will be a thousand year reign of Christ, when the world will be at peace.

.. disagreements have arisen over the issue of just when certain momentous events such as the Rapture and The Millenium take place… before or after the Great Tribulation.

One Question: Regarding the Rapture, I find it extremely curious that the one question that I have never heard asked or answered, is why? Why does there have to be a Rapture at all? What is the point of ‘meeting the Lord in the air’? Since anyone who gives that matter any thought whatsoever will have a hard time believing that we are merely being taken on a celestial joy ride, there has to be more to it than that. And yes, there is an answer... a very good one. See That Earth Shattering Seventh Trumpet to see where exactly the Rapture fits into End Time events and why it happens. In the mean time, this page has been confined to the reasons the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a figment of the imagination.


Does It Matter?
Does what one believes about the timing of the Rapture matter? Yes, as a matter of fact, it does.. very greatly

“If the Pre-Tribulation view is correct, then the Great Tribulation is purely of academic interest to the Christian, and the whole issue is of little consequence. If, however, the Post-Tribulation view is correct, then the issue becomes of vital importance, as it means the Church has yet to enter the most extensive period of intense persecution and tribulation in its entire history. If the Church is going to face the onslaught of the Antichrist, and an all-out attempt to utterly destroy true Christianity, then we must be prepared! The Post-Tribulationist can afford to be wrong, but not the Pre-Tribulationist!”

The following is a lengthy and very relevant quote from an article by pastor Tim Warner…

“In contemporary western Christianity, post-tribbers are looked upon with pity and suspicion. Some think we have a "martyr complex." Others think we are just troublemakers, wanting to rock the boat. Post-tribulationism just doesn't seem to fit in with the prosperous lifestyles of contemporary western Christianity. The lack of real persecution and hardship has led many to assume that this is the normal Christian life. But, according to Scripture, persecution, tribulation, and hardship, is the real "normal" Christian experience. The comfort western Christians have enjoyed for the last few generations is an anomaly that will soon come to an end. The theological "comfort zones" we have constructed around this anomaly are about to come crashing down.

For those who are honestly considering the various views of the rapture timing, and are open to God's leading regarding this issue, there is plenty of opposition ahead for you. The "rapture question" has been a hot potato issue in the recent past. In some cases, splitting churches. Christians who have abandoned the pre-trib view and been the least bit vocal about it have often found themselves being offered the "right foot of fellowship." Many pastors who have abandoned pre-trib have lost their churches, and missionaries have been abandoned by their mission boards and supporting churches because of their switch to the post-trib view. So, if you have no tolerance for hardship, you had better stop here. If you've got the guts to face the truth head on no matter what it is, then please continue.

Some say it really doesn't matter if Jesus is coming before or after the tribulation, as long as we are "ready." They think we should all just agree to disagree, and love one another. But, "ready" is a relative term! It begs the question, "ready for what?" There is a huge difference between being ready to be gently whisked away to heaven on a pillow, and being ready to become a martyr at the hands of Antichrist! Is surface harmony worth the risk of huge numbers of believers being caught totally unprepared spiritually, emotionally, and physically? What about the "many" believers whom Jesus mentioned in Matt. 24:9-13 who would fall away when the deception and persecution of the last days arrives? If Jesus' coming is several decades away, then perhaps the rapture debate is not all that critical. But, if Jesus is coming soon as the signs seem to indicate, one's views on the timing of the rapture are crucial to being prepared to be an overcomer in the difficult days before His coming.

Knowledge of what lies ahead motivates people to prepare. A rookie soldier, who knows he is about to be shipped to the front lines in a brutal war, will have a much different attitude about basic training than a new recruit who joined up to get a free education and a pension! The soldier who is about to engage the enemy knows his training may mean the difference between life and death. He learns survival techniques; he gets physically fit; he learns his weapons inside and out; he makes sure his weapons are in good working order; through countless hours of practice he becomes a marksman. He also prepares himself mentally for combat and the possibility of being a POW. His objective is clear; he is fully equipped; and he is mentally focused on getting the job done and coming home in one piece! On the other hand, the new peace-time novice, with big ideas of a comfortable career, could have a ho-hum attitude about basic training. If he is unexpectedly thrust into a fierce battle, he will find himself woefully unprepared. While staring down the barrel of the enemy's rifle is not the time to be fumbling around for your weapon's instruction manual. He might just conclude that this is not what he signed up for!

If it really doesn't matter what we believe about the last days, why did God devote such a large portion of His Word to end-time prophecy? Is it just filler material? Is it for intellectual entertainment? The answer is really quite simple. Prophecy was intended to provide the kind of motivation needed to turn flabby pew-potatoes into Christian soldiers” [ 2 ]


Beliefs of The Early Church
Please note that the truth about the timing of the Rapture is to be found only in Scripture, however some very serious concerns arise if, as claimed by the pre-tribulationists, the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture was not believed by anyone in the church until about two hundred years ago. References to what the early church believed is based on the assumption that they were more likely to have the truth since they were closer to the original source of the doctrines (Jesus and the apostles), and certainly not corrupted by centuries of theology.

While at least one early, relatively obscure, document has emerged that states the rapture will take place before the tribulation, certainly it seem undeniable that the vast majority of the early church writers believed exactly the opposite. So where did this doctrine spring from?

Apparently, the information about the rapture originated with a prophecy by a member of the Plymouth Brethren. The doctrine then spread, causing people to go back to the Bible and look for what they had already accepted as the truth. With that mindset, verses were filtered through a preconceived theological bias, and some totally unwarranted connections made.


A Short History of Pre-Tribulationism
Michael Cordner in The Rapture of the Church, documents the history of this doctrine..

“Pre-Tribulationism was unknown to the early Church; in fact, no one has been able to show that this particular doctrine was held by any of the church Fathers or Biblical scholars before the early nineteenth century. It apparently originated at this time during a great revival of interest in Biblical prophecy. In 1830, a young Scottish woman named Margaret McDonald claimed to have received a "revelation" that Christians would be raptured before the Great Tribulation. Shortly after this, the idea spread to London where it aroused much interest. In further "revelations" during this period, dates for the rapture were variously fixed between 1835 and 1847!

Pre-Tribulationism was first taught publicly at a series of prophetic meetings in Powerscourt House, Ireland. Here Plymouth Brethren organizer John Darby took hold of the idea and made it an essential element of his teachings, giving rise to what is now known as Darbyism, or Dispensationalism. (For a full account see "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin" by Dave MacPherson.) However, not all of the Brethren accepted this teaching. It was rejected and opposed by such well known members as George Mueller and Samuel P. Tregelles (both of whom broke with the Brethren movement because of it). Among other men who opposed this "novel two-phased-second coming" teaching as being un-Scriptural was the Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon. In spite of the opposition of such men, this doctrine crossed denominational lines to spread throughout England. The greatest growth of this teaching, however, has been in the twentieth century mainly through the Modern Dispensational teachings of the Scofield Reference Bible. .


Explicit Teachings
So the question that springs to mind is if the Bible teaches a rapture before the Tribulation, why didn't virtually anybody see it for almost 2000 years? The simple answer is .. because it isn’t there. While the Bible unmistakably states there will be a rapture after the Tribulation, there isn’t a single verse in Scripture that unambiguously states that there is a rapture before the Tribulation. All the Scriptural passages used by Pre-Tribulationists to "prove" their case do not positively state that there will be a rapture before the tribulation.. the doctrine has to be inferred. Quite simply, Pre-Tribulationism is not "an explicit teaching of Scripture.

Sadly the unwritten, very sensible, rule that Biblical verses that are unclear are to be interpreted in the light of the ones that are, seems to have been forgotten. While there are several verses in the New Testament that refer to the Rapture, some explicitly speaking about the timing of this event. [All Emphasis Added]

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks about a single rapture and tells us clearly when this will take place.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. [Matthew 24: 29-30.]

Also see the parallel verse in Mark 13:23-27, which is prefaced with the words “But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance”, which makes it impossible that He omitted any reference whatsoever to such a momentous event as the removal of His entire Church from the face of the earth. So why are we insisting that the rapture will take place before the tribulation when Jesus Himself said it would take place “after the tribulation of those days”, and that He has told us everything?

Paul’s was equally explicit…

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. [1 Corinthians 15:23-24]

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” [1Corinthians 15:50-52]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1 Thessalonians 4:14-17]

All three quotes make very specific references to timing… At the coming of Christ and at the last trump, which then have to be understood as simultaneous.

There are only two comings of Christ the first of which ended with the Ascension two thousand years ago, and the second not too far away.

There are only Seven Trumpets… one following the other in sequence, the seventh of which marks the end of the Tribulation and the Rapture.


Tribulation Martyrs
Why are we also missing the passages from Revelation that speak of Christians that are killed during the persecution of the church/go through the Tribulation, which means that they are very much here on earth during the worst times and will be ‘raptured’ along with all other believers.

In Revelation 6 after the opening of the fifth seal the martyred saints ask God to avenge their deaths on the persecutors “who dwell on the earth” (6: 10). These martyred Christians are told wait “until their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (v. 11).

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course. [Revelation 6:9-11]

There is not a shred of evidence to support the idea that those martyred during the tribulation are a Jewish remnant.. the Greek words used in Revelation 6:10-11 not only refer to Christians of various nationalities, but also to angels… The word translated fellow-servants above is the Greek sundoulos, while the word brethren is the Greek adelphos.

Fellow-Servants
The word sundoulos (fellow-servants) is used to describe angels in Revelation 19:10 and 22:9, while Paul uses the same terminology to speak of two different men… Tychicus and Epaphras..

All my affairs shall Tychicus make known unto you, the beloved brother and faithful minister and fellow-servant in the Lord: [Colossians 4:7]

even as ye learned of Epaphras our beloved fellow-servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf [Colossians 1:7]

Tychicus, first mentioned in Acts 20:4 ranked highly in Paul’s estimation. He not only shared the Apostle's first Roman captivity, but was sent to Asia as the bearer of letters to the Colossians and Ephesians. Paul called him “a beloved brother, and faithful minister in the Lord” in Ephesians 6:21-22. (also See Colossians 4:7, . However the point is that Tychicus is widely believed to be a Christian from Asia.

Epaphras was a Colossian, a fact made evident in Colossians 4:12.. “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, saluteth you”. The church in Colossae was located near Ephesus in Asia Minor.

Brethren
The word translated brethren is used almost 400 times in the New Testament and can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be said to solely refer to Jews. For example

but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother (adelphos) shall be in danger of the judgment; [Mathew 5:22]

Finally, brethren (adelphos), whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.[Philippians 4:8]

Hereby know we love, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren (adelphos). [1 John 3:16]

Having therefore, brethren (adelphos), boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, [Hebrews 10:19]

for indeed ye do it toward all the brethren (adelphos) that are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brethren, that ye abound more and more; [1Thessalonians 4:10]

and when I was present with you and was in want, I was not a burden on any man; for the brethren (adelphos), when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my want; and in everything I kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. [2 Corinthians 11:9]

Note that in 1 Thessalonians 4:10 and 2 Corinthians 11:9, Paul refers to the Macedonians as brethren. In New Testament times, Macedonia was a Roman province north of Greece, governed by a proconsul. It was the first region of Europe to accept Christianity.

Moreover Scripture also tells us ...

And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." [Revelation 17:6]

This “woman” which an angel identifies as “the great city” in V. 18... one that aligns itself with the beast, seems to be in a position of authority over the kings of the earth and is responsible for the killing of saints and the ‘drunkenness’ of all earth dwellers. [See Two Babylons].

However the next verse is the clincher... People that are beheaded for NOT worshipping the beast or receiving his mark on their foreheads can only happen AFTER the rise of the antichrist, DURING the tribulation.

“… And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” [Revelation 20:4]


Proof Texts For a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?
Pre-tribulationists, totally ignoring the clear teachings of Scripture have isolated a number of verses which they claim back up their theory.

1) ‘'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep (tēreo)you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. [Revelation 3:10]

In the first place the letters in this chapter of Revelation are addressed to specific churches in the first century. If we can take one message to one particular church and apply it to end time believers, what are we to make of the message to the church of Smyrna who were told that ‘the devil was about to cast some of them into prison, so that they would be tested’. And they would “have tribulation ten days” and to “Be faithful unto death” and that they could not be hurt by the “second death” (2:11). Certainly they were not promised protection from the coming tribulation.

Besides which, the messages to the churches were all based on their past deeds, and the Philadelphian church was no exception. The message says (All Emphasis Added) … “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing”. Additionally, historians would hardly have missed it had an entire church been beamed off the earth when religious persecution did happen a short time later. If they were not physically removed then, one has to wonder why in the world would Jesus promise the church in Philadelphia protection from something that would happen thousands of years later?

Also a question that arises at this point is .. if the seven churches are seven consecutive periods of church history, as is commonly believed, then why is was the rapture passage written to the church in Philadelphia which would be the sixth period, and not to the church in Laodicea representing the last period?

In any case, the word translated keep is the Greek tēreo, which is exactly the same word used in John 17:15, when Jesus prays that God would ‘keep’ His disciples from evil.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tēreo) them from the evil one. [John 17:15]

Jesus specifically mentions that He was NOT asking for them to be taken out of this world, but to be either protected from evil and/or given grace to be sustained amid all trials. “The same idea is expressed in the Lord's Prayer when we pray "deliver us from evil" in Matt. 6:13. (The Greek is a little different here, meaning literally "rescue us from evil".) In praying this, we do not ask to be physically removed from evil (as world dwellers we can't be), but we ask for power to live through it!”

2) "But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare:[34] for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth [35]. But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man [36]. [Luke 21:34-36,]

Verse 36 indicates the escape of the things that come to pass (supposedly the Rapture), while Verses 34 and 35 provide the context, which does not support this meaning. In the words of Jeffrey Mott…

“In verse 34 we are told to be careful of ourselves, or we might forget to watch for the coming day because we are too busy surfeiting (eating) and drinking, or that we may become depressed with the day to day worries of this life. We should keep watch or the day will surprise us. Verse 35 tells us that "that day" will come upon all who live upon the earth.. ALL!

Verse 36 says to be watchful and pray, so that we will be aware of the events enough so as to avoid the things that will occur, and be able to stand worthy before Jesus. How do we escape? In a rapture, or like the children of Israel when God sent plagues upon Egypt. They went through the tribulations of the day but were unharmed because they were deemed worthy to escape the judgments brought upon Egypt. We are likewise told many times to comfort and strengthen one another with these words. Why would we need to comfort and strengthen unless we will be here.”

Jesus has told his disciples about perils from false christs, persecution, and temptations to be unfaithful and this verse, like countless other verses in the New Testament, warn about watchfulness and perseverance. In fact, the signs in the sun and moon and stars; and distress of nations on the earth, are actually encouraging to the true believer.. verse 28 says "Now when these things begin to take place, look up and lift your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh".

3) Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. [I Thessalonians 1:10]

4) For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[I Thessalonians 5:9]

To read the rest of this article click on the link

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_rapture.html

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

I am not sure if I was wrong reading it, but is it the last article conclusion in short is:

Pretrib or midtrib all is wrong ...

Only postribulation is the right one ?

Sorry, I didn't read in full but glancely, just very long, but some early pages of the last article I read it through, when debunking pretrib or midtrib or prewrath.

I got confused with its relatedness to the title threat.

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Hi Gimel,

Great questions.......

I like to post different points of view and scripture interpretation to help us to be Apologists (Defending our beliefs )

I believe that through prayerfully reading the scriptures (Hebrew & Greek meanings) will help us to better divide the WORD of God with the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Pre Tribulation

Mid Tribulation

Pre Wrath

Post Tribulation
positions all have holes so by reading and having this forum we can discuss and grow in our faith.

Some people want to say they have all the answers and will not allow discussion ( Pre Trib ONLY , Mid Trib ONLY, Pre Wrath ONLY, Post Trib ONLY sites) on this matter but I think we can grow by studying the WORD and praying for revelation and illumination of the scriptures, thus it will help us to evangelize all that God brings to us to share the Gospel.

Let us all exhort, edify and encourage without fighting each other over the scriptures and may the LORD BE GLORIFIED!!!


I pray that the posts today will benefit all who read and study the scriptures.

God Bless

Maranatha!!!


Steven

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Steven
Hi Gimel,

Great questions.......

I like to post different points of view and scripture interpretation to help us to be Apologists (Defending our beliefs )

I believe that through prayerfully reading the scriptures (Hebrew & Greek meanings) will help us to better divide the WORD of God with the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Pre Tribulation

Mid Tribulation

Pre Wrath

Post Tribulation
positions all have holes so by reading and having this forum we can discuss and grow in our faith.

Some people want to say they have all the answers and will not allow discussion ( Pre Trib ONLY , Mid Trib ONLY, Pre Wrath ONLY, Post Trib ONLY sites) on this matter but I think we can grow by studying the WORD and praying for revelation and illumination of the scriptures, thus it will help us to evangelize all that God brings to us to share the Gospel.

Let us all exhort, edify and encourage without fighting each other over the scriptures and may the LORD BE GLORIFIED!!!


I pray that the posts today will benefit all who read and study the scriptures.

God Bless

Maranatha!!!


Steven


Great open-mindedness and reply, Steven!

Many Bible-Scholars and True Believers have Different Belief in their own given PARTial PROPHECY of the COMPLETE PROPHECY OF GOD's WORD.

Could it be that there are different TIMINGS of RAPTURE which ALL BELIEVERS ASSUME AS SAME and THOUGHT ONLY ONE?

To EACH ONE it is DEFINITELY ONE PER PERSON.
But if we study in depth into GOD's WORD, GOD HAD CATERED RAPTURE for EVERYONE AT GOD's TIMINGs.

ONLY JESUS knows each and everyone's APPOINTED TIME.

Therefore we the members would NEVER know ONE ANOTHER's TIMINGS, agree?

THIS FULFILLS ALL PROPHECY MARVELOUSLY!

Pray that we have the PREPAREDNESS FOR POST-TRIB and YET TAKEN PRE-TRIB.

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2011/candace829-2.htm

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Candace (29 Aug 2011)
"Rapture debate"


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Hi doves I was watching Perry Stones old manna fest programs on you tube the other day and he said people write him and call him a heretic because he is pre trib rapture. He said he is not a heretic because he has a different opinion. It seems to me over the last couple of years people have forgotten what the unpardonable sin is. The unpardonable sin is rejecting Jesus not having a different opinion on the time of the rapture. There are people on here that believe the trib has started,does that make them ****ed and false because that's not what you believe. Are people wrong and false because they are of a different denomination? Have a different opinion about time? Etc........ I could go on and on. If someone said there is no rapture then yes that's false becomes the bible is completely clear on it but whether you believe its pre mid or post trib we all know it will happen. I am one who agrees with some on here the trib has begun and I don't think the ones that disagree with me are any less then me its a different OPINION. God does not judge us on our opinion,only God knows each of our hearts.The bottom line is the heart. Years ago at my old church we would have fellowship and talk about the bible we loved our neighbors as ourselves now all I here christians do is bicker and argue about who's right and who's wrong who's real who's false when they don't know the others heart. If there is any person on this earth that knows the complete bible just like Jesus himself then please let me know because I didn't know there was a human that has the complete knowledge like God other than Jesus God himself.I understand there are many wrong views and false prophets but it seems these days its the popular saying of they are wrong they are false. We have to watch for him because it could be anytime. I think this is a plan of satan where we can't even give our christian opinions anymore without someone putting us down. I don't agree with a lot of other peoples views I don't think anyone agrees with another on everything but the one thing I will always agree on is there is a heaven there is hell Jesus is savior and he is coming(IF YOU LOVE HIM HE LOVES YOU) and he knows which way it is because he knows your heart

God bless the doves
Candace


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I thought this post is very appropriate....

Not only the rapture ( Pre , Mid, Pre Wrath, Post )

but denominations, speaking in tongues, baptism,


Age of Jesus and all sorts of other topics seem to turn into an opportunity for Satan to divide the church.

Awaiting the rapture so everyone will finally see clearly and all the bickering will be over.

Until then will it would be nice to see Christians, encourage, edify and exhort one another in our last days on earth.

Righteous vs right?


Grace vs right?

Grace in this context is something that is God-given, made possible only by Jesus Christ and none other. It is God's gift of salvation granted to sinners for their salvation.

The Christian teaching is that grace is unmerited mercy that God gave to us by sending his son to die on a cross to give us eternal salvation.


(which will we choose?)

Maranatha!!!

Steven


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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Steven
For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

I thought this post is very appropriate....

Not only the rapture ( Pre , Mid, Pre Wrath, Post )

but denominations, speaking in tongues, baptism,


Age of Jesus and all sorts of other topics seem to turn into an opportunity for Satan to divide the church.

Awaiting the rapture so everyone will finally see clearly and all the bickering will be over.

Until then will it would be nice to see Christians, encourage, edify and exhort one another in our last days on earth.

Righteous vs right?


Grace vs right?

Grace in this context is something that is God-given, made possible only by Jesus Christ and none other. It is God's gift of salvation granted to sinners for their salvation.

The Christian teaching is that grace is unmerited mercy that God gave to us by sending his son to die on a cross to give us eternal salvation.


(which will we choose?)

Maranatha!!!

Steven


______________________________________________________



_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven


Thanks Steven,

Hope we have Both like Jesus Himself...

ONLY JESUS IS FULL OF GRACE AND ALSO FULL OF TRUTH


John:1:14:
"And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth."

1John:2:21:
"I have not written unto you
because ye know not the truth,
but because ye know it,
and that no lie is of the truth."

1John:2:27:
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things,
and is truth,
and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you,
ye shall abide in him."

Ephesians:4:13:
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

2Timothy:2:15:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth."

1Corinthians:13:9:
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."

Galatians:6:4:
"But let every man prove his own work,
and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another."

2Corinthians:13:8:
"For we can do nothing against the truth,
but for the truth
."

James:3:14:
"But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth."

Ephesians:4:15:
"But speaking the truth in love,
may grow up into Him in all things
,
which is the head,
even Christ:"

-----------------------------------------


Agree that we should allow everyone to encourage, edify, exhort by rightly dividing God's Word and proving his(her inclusive) own works and should never divide God's PEOPLE and should never attack brothers(sisters) because we know in part and someone know another part.


The more we know JESUS is fulfilling ALL of GOD's WORD...the more WE GROW IN CHRIST...in TRUTH.

But We have to speak the truth in love(in GRACE)that we grow UP into CHRIST in ALL things.
(Grow in Both GRACE & TRUTH )

Daniel:12:9: "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

GOD is revealing more and more as the seal of Daniel's prophecy is opened in this last days and all of us should be open to correction of our initial errors in understandings from hidden truths only revealed in increasing PROGRESSION these LAST DAYS...

Love the way you put it, Steven.
Inspired from your email reply...

Let all of us immerse ourselves like Steven in prayers before answering any post

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Thanks Steven,

Agree with you we should have open mind to many opinions but stand still in what we believe. I myself a little mixed of pretrib and prewrath but not postrib.
Anyway I have read many of postrib too ...

GBU
Gimel

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2011/sherryv831-2.htm

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Sherry Vance (31 Aug 2011)
"Reply to Mercer (27 Aug 2011) "Sherry Vance-Lewis Brackett""


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Dear Mercer;

I would have replied sooner but the recent "Hurricane Irene" blew out our power!

Lewis's statement (and yours) that we are not in the "tribulation" is indeed correct!
The period of "Great tribulation" has not yet begun....but the 70th Week HAS! The misunderstanding is that the tribulation is a 7 year period, when it is not. The 70th WEEK is a 7 year time period. That 7 year time period is a normal passage of time. It operates on the Gregorian calendar of 365 days per year but also contained within it will be the prophetic appointed time period of "great tribulation," referred to as a time, times, and half a time, or 1260 days, or 42 months. But that prophetic time determined and appointed by God for His Plan to fulfill Daniel 9:24 still runs within the time of the regular normal year. So since we are not yet IN the midst of the week when the prophetic time period will begin, then we are indeed NOT YET IN THE (great) "TRIBULATION."

The intention of my previous post (and this one) was neither to promote nor defend Godstimeline; however, I must say that Godstimeline, as far as the material posted there, has not "failed" except for the error that was made in setting speculative dates for the possibility of the Resurrection/Rapture. And, to be sure, many others have also speculated and shared possible dates without accusations against them or dismissal of everything they shared. But, if you or anyone else have re-visited Godstimeline lately, you will see this:

My apologies for any speculative days/ dates from Jan.27th through Feb.18th 2011, in regard to the possibility of Jesus Christ coming for the "resurrection/ Rapture"! At the time I didn't know that they were to be connected to Nissan in the Book of Esther and the time of the Passover connected to the Purim's of both Adar 1 and Adar 2!!

And with regard to the connection between the Resurrection/Rapture to Nissan, Esther, Passover and Purim, a link is offered for anyone who wishes to understand the logical relation and sequence of its contextual resemblance. > The Purim Connection to the Rapture? However, as I said, I am simply posting what I believe to be true....and that is to first basically understand that the 70th Week is simply a passage of time, while inside that time is running a prophetic appointed time period that quite scripturally begins in the midst of the 70th Week, and which is called (by Jesus Himself) "a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor ever will see again..." (Matt.24:21)

No, Mercer, what's going on in the world does not make me think we are "IN the "tribulation." I know what we are experiencing and it is called the birth pangs of the Messiah....the beginning of sorrows (Matt. 24/25) >>> wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilences, earthquakes in divers places, false prophets, deception, the love of many waxing cold, etc......all while most of us are still enjoying most of the same blessings we've always had (marriage, giving in marriage, eating, drinking, one merriment after another - JUST LIKE IN THE DAYS OF NOAH! But, as you said, these are not the days of tribulation and I agree because the days of great tribulation begin with JUDGMENT!.....the Opening of the Seals, the revelation of the antichrist, etc. etc.....a time such as the world has never seen nor ever will again. And that great time of tribulation begins in the midst of the 70th Week.

The middle of the 70th Week is the 4th year of the 7 years. The middle year will begin on Rosh Hashanah, September 29, 2011 and run until Rosh HaShanah, September 17, 2012. Sometime in the midst of the Week, or more specifically> sometime between, or in the midst of, Rosh HaShanah 2011 and Rosh Hashanah 2012, (which is about April/Nissan/Passover season) satan will be cast out of the Heavens, to the Earth. He will be granted 1260 days/42 months to "conquer" and he will empower the antichrist to accomplish it.

I don't expect to "be here" when the antichrist is revealed because Paul said "The Day of the Lord will not come until The man of lawlessness is revealed. This is the same as saying the antichrist's revelation will come FIRST and then the Day of the Lord (meaning the great tribulation) will start. That makes sense because until the antichrist is revealed - in the midst of the Week - AFTER Satan is cast down and empowers him - only then can the great tribulation begin !

And just what comes even before satan is cast down?......the two witnesses! How do we know this? Because their ministry is 1260 days, the same as the antichrist's reign. HOWEVER, the antichrist kills them BEFORE the END of HIS 1260 day reign.....so they must arrive and begin their ministry BEFORE the antichrist is revealed!!! Now I think we will be gone either at the time the witnesses come down or shortly afterward - but before the antichrist is revealed! Personally, I'd like to see the witnesses before I go up, as long as I go up before the man of lawlessness is revealed (when he commits the abomination)......although for me, his identity is clear already.

Yes, Mercer, Noah was shut in the ark before the flood and Lot was dragged out of Sodom, and He even protected the harlot Rahab. But we aren't going to be shut in or dragged out and we don't have to hang a scarlet cord out the window to show Him where we are! We are going to simply vanish out of here faster than the twinkling of an eye! And we will be GONE in the midst of the week, before the revelation of the antichrist and before the period of great tribulation!

The word "hope" in Hebrew is “yachal”, meaning “trust." The Blessed Hope is more than looking for the Rapture. The Blessed Hope is the TRUST that Jesus is returning to this earth VERY SOON!

Mercer, you warned me not to be "dogmatic" (which means to make an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles) regarding being in the tribulation, please stop and consider you misunderstood that I said we are in the tribulation. I am saying we are NOT in the (great/1260 day) tribulation YET. But on the other hand, let's not be "dogmatic" about a so-called 7 year tribulation either - especially when there isn't a single scripture verse to prove it.
Sherry Vance


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Forum, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.

If you are new to this site and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com

I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture


Our NEW URL link
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com

Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum -For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes



http://vimeo.com/20205377

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Rapture Madness with guest Phil Elmore
by Scot Dryer





_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum-http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.


If you are new to Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com


I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven


Our NEW URL link
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Just sharing again the Tables to COMPARE
the different uses of the same WORD
(Tribulation, Great Tribulation, Those Days, etc)
using different [100% PREWRATH] SENARIOS
(Pre-trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib)
by different authors
(Matthew, Mark & Luke)
with different PARTial Gifts
(Gospel to Jews, Gentiles)
given by the SAME HolySpirit
to cater for the different TIMINGs
of the RAPTURE of EVERY PER-SONs...
In the SAME BODY of JESUS CHRIST
THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OUR OUR FAITH

http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730292

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture


Our NEW URL link
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com

Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum -For Fair Use Discussion and Educational Purposes



http://www.simplesite.com/7churches/43730292?i=45027296

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_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zechariah 12:3,9:
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people; And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum-http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com
, does not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the reply button.


If you are new to Rapture Bible Prophecy Forum http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com and would like to post articles, opinions, youtube videos that are appropriate for this site just e mail me at

stevensandiego@ymail.com


I will send you a PASSWORD

Ybic

Steven


Our NEW URL link
http://www.rapturebibleprophecyforum.com

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

Thanks Steven

Re: Perfecting the Pre-Trib Rapture

bump