PBS

BILL MOYERS: If the G-8 Summit was a political chicanery as you said, what was the G-8 concert?

GEORGE AYITTEY: As an African, I appreciate the fact that Western rock bands are trying to help Africa. But then, as an African I look at it and I ask myself "has it come to this -- that Africa's salvation rests upon the success of rock concerts? Are we totally bereft of finding solutions to our own problems in Africa?" In other words, there was a lot of feel-good. People went to the rock concerts. But they thought that in putting pressure to bear on the G-8 leaders, they may be able to open up the oppressors and do something for Africa. But you see the real question is why are we not holding these rock concerts in Africa? What are African governments, what are African leaders doing to help their own people? That has been totally missing in the equation. We all know that government-to-government aid hasn't helped Africa. More than four Marshall Plans have been pumped into Africa since 1960. And we haven't seen any positive result out of it. The best way of helping Africa -- smart aid -- is that which will help the African people. Smart aid is that which will empower the African people. The way to empower the African people, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. All that we have to do is to look at how the world dealt with Eastern Europe. Now there, the West didn't hand money over to the Communist regimes. It found societies or NGOs like Solidarity and helped them --

BILL MOYERS: Non-government institutions -- like The Workers' Movement in Poland -- Solidarity.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Precisely. Why don't we find the solidarity movements in Africa and help them?

BILL MOYERS: Well, why don't we?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes. And also the West also established Radio Free Europe. So why don't we establish Radio Free Africa, for example? Information is power. Information is very powerful. Look at the role the media played in Eastern Europe and how it contributed to the demise of the Soviet Union. As I indicated, the media is controlled in Africa. Let's get the media out of the hands of these corrupt and incompetent governments in Africa.

BILL MOYERS: But they've got the guns.

GEORGE AYITTEY: This is where, in the past, Western approach towards Africa was leader-centered.

BILL MOYERS: Leader-centered?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Leader-centered. In other words, the West was looking --

BILL MOYERS: Go to Mugabe, go to Nyerere, go to -

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes. The West was looking for leaders who were saying the right things, the things the West wanted to hear. Democracy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I think a newer approach -- and this is what I indicated when we went to Scotland -- should be one which is institution-based. In other words, the West should be looking at certain critical institutions. For example, like independent and free media. It is crucial.

BILL MOYERS: An independent court. Judiciary.

GEORGE AYITTEY: An independent judiciary.

BILL MOYERS: Name some more.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes. That is important. An independent electoral commission. You can't have free and fair elections if the electoral commission is not independent.

BILL MOYERS: We could use some of that over here.

GEORGE AYITTEY: In the West, you say that if you don't have an independent electoral commission, we're not going to give you aid to conduct your elections. The fourth institution that we need is an independent central bank. The military rulers of Nigeria, for example; when Sani Abacha was in power, his goons launched pre-dawn raids on the Central Bank of Nigeria with trucks, they loaded the trucks with billions and billions of certified dollars and carried the dollars out of the country. Let's have an independent central bank in let's say not just Nigeria but say Africa. Even if you can't, rotate the governance of these central banks in a particular region. Let's say West Africa or say East Africa, for example. This way they are sure that, you know, at least --

BILL MOYERS: You know, that makes a lot of sense to me as a layman. But the Western leaders who came away from Scotland at the G-8 Summit, they were advocating doubling the amount of traditional aid to Africa.

GEORGE AYITTEY: OK, the world wants to help. But, it doesn't mean that we should repeat old stupid mistakes by pouring money into an African bowl, which everybody knows, it leaks. Look, corruption alone costs Africa $148 billion a year.Now, cut that half. If African governments would seriously cut that in half, they would find almost more than enough money that Tony Blair would use -- the 50 billion that Tony Blair wants to raise for them.

BILL MOYERS: What leverage does the West have to bring that about?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, the West doesn't have the leverage, but if you want to solve corruption, there are two most effective antidotes against corruption: an independent media and also an independent judiciary in order to have the rule of law.

BILL MOYERS: So, that's what we should be supporting.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes. Precisely.

BILL MOYERS: We should be supporting a free press in every country?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes, yes, precisely, precisely.

BILL MOYERS: Should we hold up our aid until the government agrees to?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, of course you can say, "Look, if you don't have a free press, this and that and that and that case--". In other words, let's take the Bush millennium challenge account that has something like 15 sort of benchmarks before you get any grant. I have suggested that just a few of these benchmarks -- an independent and free press, media -- ought to be the first one. You see, to fight corruption, number one, you have to expose it. You expose the corrupt. And number two you punish them. And that's where you need an independent judiciary -- punish them for all for everybody to see. That's all. That's not rocket science. But then for Africans to be able to do it, you have to give them the institutional tools. You just can't preach "fight corruption", and then allow Mugabe to control the media.

BILL MOYERS: You've said that Africa needs tough love. What do you mean by that?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, tough love simply means that for far too long we have not been willing to criticize black African leaders. And that should change. And if we see that African leaders are doing something wrong and they're not governing justly, we ought to be able to say so. And especially what I have found in Washington is that the white policy makers don't want to be seen as criticizing black African leaders for fear

BILL MOYERS: Yeah, they don't want to be accused of racism.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Of course, for fear that the Reverend Jesse Jacksons and the black congressional will be jumping up all over them, accusing them of racism. And this hasn't helped us in Africa. Because look. Oppression is oppression regardless of the skin color of the oppressor.

BILL MOYERS: But how does American money bypass a corrupt government that rules by fear and terror? How can American money works its way beyond those governments?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, this is what I have often been preaching. And that is the solution -- has to come from within Africa itself. Because internal solutions are far more sustainable and enduring than solutions which are imposed from the outside. And this is why I've always believed that the African people need to be empowered. When I went to Scotland, I was so disappointed in a sense that all this talk about helping Africa seeks to build government capacity. Now, in Africa, most of us see our governments as the problem. Because in fact, we call them vampire states.

BILL MOYERS: Vampires?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yeah, vampire states because they suck the economic vitality out of the life, you know, of their people. The vampire state is simply a government which has been hijacked by a phalanx of bandits and crooks who would use the instruments of the state machinery to enrich themselves and their cronies and their tribesmen and exclude everybody else.

BILL MOYERS: You make a very eloquent case, but the practicality eludes me. For example, how can the United States help a free press in these African countries without that press being accused by the leaders in those countries of being an arm of American imperialism?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, the free press is very important. It's one of the reasons that I have said that it's Africans who have to do this from within. Africans have to be empowered to instigate reform from within.

BILL MOYERS: That means money doesn't it? How do you get the money to them, George?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, this is why we have to look at the experience of Eastern Europe. How the U.S. funneled money to solidarity groups and civil society groups. It can be done in Africa. In fact, the West funneled money to the ANC in South Africa. They didn't give money to the apartheid regime. In Africa, we see our governments as the problem. In fact one Lesotho traditional chief said that back in 1989, "Here we have two problems, rats and the government."

BILL MOYERS: Rats and the government?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes, it is because Africans see government as the problem. In fact we call them vampire states because they suck the vitality out of the people. A vampire state is a government which has been captured or hijacked by a phalanx of bandits and crooks who use instruments of the state to enrich themselves, their cronies and tribesmen and exclude everybody else. It's called the politics of exclusion. Now, if you want to understand why America is rich and Africa is poor, ask yourself, how do the rich in each area make their money> Take the U.S., for example, the richest person is Bill Gates. He's worth something like $64 billion. How did he make his money? He made his money in the private sector, by selling something, Microsoft computer software. He has something to show for his wealth. Now, let's go to Africa. Who are the richest in Africa? The richest in Africa are African heads of state and ministers. How did they make their money? They made their money by raking it off the backs of their suffering people. That is not wealth creation. It is wealth redistribution.

BILL MOYERS: By stealing the money --

GEORGE AYITTEY: By stealing the money.

BILL MOYERS: But you see that's what troubles those of us who are looking for a way to be helpful to Africa. Why won't they steal money given to AIDS programs and money given to build a civil society?

GEORGE AYITTEY: And it's because they hold the key institutions in the state. They control the military. They control the media. They control the judiciary. They control the electoral commission. They control the civil service. They control the central bank. This is why it is very important to take these institutions out of their hands.

BILL MOYERS: But how --

GEORGE AYITTEY: And that's how you empower the African people. We can at least learn from the experience of Eastern Europe. How you can establish a rebel radio station in Zimbabwe for example and help the people. Because the people are hungry for information.

BILL MOYERS: You're saying there have to be ways to go around these governments. But this puts the people receiving the aid when it doesn't come through the government in great peril of repression, of arrest, torture.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, it depends the country that you're dealing with. Look at Ethiopia for example. Ethiopia is also one of those countries which has been a disappointment. You may remember that back in 1985 there was Live Aid to help Ethiopia. 200 million was raised. Half of it was squandered by the military regime, which was there. Now 20 years later we're doing the same things. Now 30 million people in Ethiopia face starvation. Now, here you can make a case that look, the government has totally abandoned the people. So, you've got to find a way by which we can directly help the people and help the people help themselves. But, just handing over money to these governments simply hasn't worked.

BILL MOYERS: Yours is a contrarian view to American philanthropy and liberalism. And in particular, let me read you something that Jeffrey Sachs, the economist who's writing about how we solve poverty in the world. Jeffrey Sachs, who's advising Kofi Annan at the U.N. on how to develop the third world, says, "The poor are poor because of failing infrastructure, poor energy sources, geographic isolation, disease and natural disasters that inevitably conspire to foil progress."

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, if you go to an African village and you said something like this, very few villages will believe this. Because they can see where the problem is. If you want to understand why Africa is in such a rut, there's one word which describes it. And that's power. Power is what describes the condition of Africa. The inability or the adamant refusal of African leaders to relinquish or share power has been the bane of development in Africa. Look at Somalia. Somalia blew up because of the adamant refusal of General Siad Barre to relinquish or share power. Rwanda blew up because of the refusal of a general. Burundi. Zaire blew up because of a refusal of General Mobuto Sese Seko. Same thing, Sierra Leone, Liberia. All those countries would have been saved if those generals were willing to share political power. Zimbabwe would have been saved if Mugabe were willing to step down or share political power.

BILL MOYERS: And yet right across that border as we saw in that film there is sharing of power.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes --

BILL MOYERS: How did it happen in Botswana again?

GEORGE AYITTEY: But, you see, Botswana is one side of the equation which has been ignored for a long time, by the World Bank for example. And also many American conservatives say you can have development and authoritarianism. When you look at the Asian tigers, for example, they didn't go for democracy. All they had to do was get the economies right. If you get your economies right, then when people become prosperous, then they would demand their own political rights. And then they will start, you know --

BILL MOYERS: That's the United States position right now toward China. We overlook the despotism in order to encourage the capitalism.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Yes, but you see, it's not working in Africa. For in Africa, if you have economic reform, economic prosperity, your economy may do well until it hits a political ceiling. When it hits the political ceiling, if you don't have an enlightened leadership to open up the political space and then the country blows. Now, you're seeing exactly this happening in Uganda. And this is also what happened in Ivory Coast for example. Ivory Coast was a miracle, an economic miracle. And yet they blew up.

BILL MOYERS: Here's the other enigma to me -- that Botswana is relatively successful as you say. And yet it has a high rate of AIDS. How do outsiders help AIDS, to combat AIDS in --

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, the Bill Gates Foundation is doing an excellent job and outstanding work in Botswana, for example. I mean, one of the reasons why AIDS spread very rapidly in Africa was because when it first erupted in the late 1980's, African leaders were in denial. As a matter of fact, the Swaziland ambassador to the U.S. claimed that AIDS was a racist conspiracy to wipe out the black race. They were totally in denial. Nobody did anything to educate the African people. In fact, the leadership was very uncomfortable talking about AIDS in the media. Now, Thabo Mbeki, although I respect him, as the leader of South Africa and recognizing the role that he played, unfortunately has failed in this AIDS campaign. As a matter of fact, has shown very little credible leadership as far as AIDS. In South Africa, for example, you may remember in 1999, he was the one who was denying that HIV causes AIDS. Eventually he changed his position. But then the damage had already been done. But then African leaders, such as Mugabe and Nujoma of Namibia said AIDS was a homosexual disease. So, in fact, Nujoma went to the extent of even barring homosexuals from traveling to Namibia, for example. The total initial response was simply not adequate. When they finally recognized that AIDS was a threat, they focused more on the treatment and ways to give them more money for treatment, which really didn't make sense. Because AIDS was a disease which has no cure. Which meant that more emphasis should have been placed on preventing the disease from spreading. Now, if you look at the prevention aspect, only four African countries, Senegal, Ghana, Uganda, and Mali, only those countries which have mounted a strong public awareness campaign to educate their people in order to prevent a spread --

BILL MOYERS: Preventive care, preventive concern. George, if I was Thabo Mbeki, President of South Africa, sitting here and I said to you, "What would you have me do about Robert Mugabe", what would your answer be?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Switch off the electricity to Zimbabwe. And I know that is a brusque sort of response. But Mbeki should recognize that his own credibility lies on the line. Because the turmoil in Zimbabwe has done more than $37 billion in economic damage to the economies of the region. And therefore if President Thabo Mbeki doesn't do anything about Zimbabwe or if his approach of quiet diplomacy is inconsistent to this crisis in Sudan and Togo, a lot of Africans would sort of lose credibility in this leadership.

BILL MOYERS: If I were George W. Bush sitting here and I said, "Professor, what should I do about Africa and Mugabe in particular", what would you say?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, one of the things that the West did during the Cold War, for example, was it dealt with solidarity groups, number one. It also dealt with dissidents, Soviet dissidents who were here in the U.S., especially. President Clinton used to invite Sakharov to the White House, for example. I would like to see President Bush invite some of the dissidents who are here. And also I would also like to see a change in the policy. Because the Clinton Administration relied almost exclusively in its formulation of African policies, it relied almost exclusively on African-Americans.

BILL MOYERS: Jesse Jackson?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Jesse Jackson for example, and I advise President Bush to at least to consult with some of the native Africans who are here in the country.

BILL MOYERS: Going back to our film, we actually heard a Botswana official say that fence is to keep the cattle out.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, I find that argument to be somewhat of a red herring. I can understand Botswana wanting to protect its economic assets. It claims it's protecting its cattle industry because of the foot-and-mouth disease, you know. But then why electrify the fence? I mean, you have a country, a neighbor, which is starving. There aren't even enough cows in Zimbabwe for the people to eat let alone stray over the border to Botswana with their foot-and-foot disease. So, the electrical fence and the cattle defense is somewhat overstrained as far as I'm concerned. But Botswana has a problem of influx of refugees. But you see, it's widespread across of Africa in the same sense. In almost every African corner you find a refugee there. Because they're fleeing political oppression. And what Botswana needs to do is to take strong action against its neighbor. Look, President Julius Nyerere of Tanzania once said that when you see your neighbor's beard being shaved, watch yours. Meaning that when you see turmoil, a crisis in a neighboring country you must also take action. Botswana can not pretend that it's going to isolate itself from the turmoil in Zimbabwe. If South Africa's not providing the leadership, I think Botswana should.

BILL MOYERS: I have talked to economists who say, contrary to what you've just said, that debt relief will help the poor in Africa. What's your response to them?

GEORGE AYITTEY: It depends. Each country has its own special circumstances. Now, in terms of debt relief for example, there's no question that there are countries like say Mali and Malawi who they paid a huge percentage of their foreign exchange earnings in repaying their debt. Now, if you eliminate their debts, then of course it will make it possible to spend more on education, make it possible to spend more on health care, et cetera, et cetera. But it is not guaranteed. And I'd like to give you an example. Back in 1999, when Uganda got $970 million in debt relief the first thing President Museveni did was to buy himself a presidential jet. So, the second thing too is to make sure that the debt relief actually helps the people. And this is where the stringent conditions that are being applied, in the sense that the West wants to make sure that another binge of borrowing doesn't follow and that there is some kind of reform to curb corruption, et cetera, et cetera. That's when at least there can be some hope that at least debt relief will sort of trickle down to the poor.

BILL MOYERS: So, the first line of your argument as I hear you and as I read you, is that corruption has to end before development can really happen.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, you can't eliminate corruption completely. As an economist I can tell you that you can't eliminate it. You can't wipe out unemployment. You can't wipe out inflation. You're always going to have some inflation and unemployment. So, you are always going to have corruption. But the main thing is to minimize it. But, when military rulers cut off the entire treasury then you've got a problem. As we've seen in say, countries like Nigeria or Gabon. You have Cameroon, for example, where corruption is rampant. Kenya is also another example. Now, all that, sort of eats into the fabric of this society and also makes it impossible to lift the people out of poverty.

BILL MOYERS: How did you come to be so passionate about all of this?

GEORGE AYITTEY: Well, it is because when I see the mess in Africa, I find it humiliating as an African. It deprecates my pride and dignity. And that's why Africa should not be in such a position, not at all. Because given the mineral wealth of the continent, I mean, you name the mineral, you find it in Africa.

BILL MOYERS: Diamonds, oil --

GEORGE AYITTEY: They're there. But the mineral wealth of Africa has not been utilized to lift its people out of poverty. That's what drives me. That's what makes me angry. And that's what I want to change the condition at least in my own little way. I can't by myself. But in my own little way -- and sort of provide information to the people so that they can change their condition.

BILL MOYERS: The book is AFRICA UNCHAINED, THE BLUEPRINT FOR AFRICA'S FUTURE. Thank you very much, George Ayittey, for being with us on WIDE ANGLE.

GEORGE AYITTEY: Thank you.

If Bill Moyer have a gut like that of BBC guy who made Melese Zenawi look like Abebe,then let see it if PBS have a gut.

Email: DillingerJ1@aol.com

City: DC