I just want to start by saying that if, Melse was going to leave office after the electoin they must have had
their head burried under the sand. I am realist, so I didn't expect for the current ruling party to loose the election,
but I was happyily surprised that there was significant gain by the opposition. That said, we all have to agree
this is a pgrogress for a country who has never seen such events. Was it perfrect, NO? Is it a start, YEST. Having
seen Mr. Shaul's interview performance (that should say a lot about the party who chose him as a head), I am not ready
to get the country into a war footing. I am ok with having Melese continue, with precondition that he will resign
after his term ended. Now, what the "silent majority" and any ager wodade Ethiopian should practice from here on out
is not to insult the Tigreans as a whole, they are as Ethiopian as any one. But they fell as if they are not accepted
by the rest of the popluation, and are constantly put on defenseive mode. When you put some one in the corner he has
no other alternative, but to fight back. And they have ceritnly proven that they can fight back, my fello Ethiopians, we
need the Tigreans, just as we need the Oromos etc, on the side of the people. So we have to make them feel that they will
not be discrimintated for who they are, or will not be accepted with full arms extended. More often than than not
"Tigre" is refered in the rest of the hypocritcal country as an insult. We can not blame this people if they feel
defensive, and don't trust any one. So lets build the bridge, any one who inslut Tigre or Tigreans as whole is doing
more damage than he thinks. So, lets build the healing process, and lets first stop attacking people and their tribe,
once we achive that, everything will become common sense. The tigreans like the Oromo's want better life for Ethiopians,
so lets stop being hipocrites and work together to build this nation....what do you say? Speak up mr/mrs silen majority..
don't let fools define the future for this great butiful country....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopia,

I am not really shure wht your proposal is. Let us deconstruct it. It revolves around three anchors.

First, You beleive Meles is not going to relinquish power. The opposition shold be happy withwhatever Meles is willing to give it short of relinquishing power. Let us accept this if Meles agrees to step down after this term.

Second, Hailu Shaul did not impress you and you feel that he would start war and you are not ready for war.

Third, we should embrace the Tigrayan community and should refrain ourselves from insulting them.

I agree with you with your third observation.

My friend, the people have spoken and have rejected Meles and company. It is not what you wish or whether Meles is ready to step down or not that should matter. It is what the people have voted for that should be ushered into the office.

Second, we do not rely on Meles's promise. He is a pathological lier. But is is not his lies that matter here. He is voted out and you should show him the way. Once you start violatig the will of the people, you cannot hope that things will be better next time around. No dictatr has given up power willingly. As Jeferson said thos who are prepared to postpone their freedom to the future neither deserve nor get it.

Mamo Qilo

Email: mamoqilo@yahoo.com

Mamo Qilo is that realy u, or I am reading things wrong???

What happen to you, did u just wake up ???

Dear Brook,

Eth and Qilo is the same person.

Gohst,
You idot! we are not one and the same.....get over your obsesson of Quilo. and add to the conversation.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Selam Ethiopian

I like your rational angle.

I don’t mean to sound stupid; hopefully not. Why are people so sure that Meles lost the election? If I get it right, and I don’t claim to get things right every time, the final result is yet to be announced. Supposedly, there is an investigation underway, at least according to some international media outlets, the result of which is to be announced soon. Why cant we wait and see the out come?

First I would like to thank both Yelma and Quilo’s intelligent analysis to the point I put forward. It is refreshing and privilege to engage in analytical, discussion with well meaning folks likes yourself. Moving right along to Yelma’s point first, I have to say you don’t sound stupid, you are right in that no one should assume Meles’s party has lost before results are announced by the election board, but you have to agree that election results no announced some two months after the votes are casted rightly add to the suspicion that the outcome will be rigged. To me the opposition has lost it credibility, because they exercise wise judgment, in that they were crying foul and that the vote is rigged before the election, during the election and after the election, their cry doesn’t hold water especially when they have decidedly won districts they have complained about as having been rigged. The bottom line is that although it is a great achievement to have an election in the first place, by delaying the announcement of the outcome, the ruling party cast a huge data on the legitimacy of the out put. However, as I have said democracy can not be perfect it will have to take lumps and burses as it grows. Overall, I consider the whole election exercise as a big plus for the country, and I am not afraid to give credit to Melese on this one, this happen on his watch and he get credit for that. Once again, the fact that opposition and some folks screaming bloody murder for not wining the election, I say relax lets not go to an extreme, lets see the positive side. We have to see as an China as an example, they have made some great economic strides in the last decade, if you ask are they democratic by western standard NO, but their people are benefiting from the growth, and at some point, I’m sure true democracy will take over the communist party, because well fead educated people will chose freedom at the end of the day. I have to say the biggest regret of this election is that people got shot and lost life, and that is just not acceptable which ever way you look at it. Govt has to prepare for crowd control of hundreds of thousands, you can’t use the excuse of the police was overwhelmed there fore it had to indiscriminately shoot….I will respond to mamo on the next trails.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Mamo,
I liked the way you broke it down and analsed my point, your intelligence is apparent. Just use it constructively..hope my reply here bellow will clear up the muddy water, if not I will continue to correspond with you until we come into the consebses.

First,wWe don't know Meles is voted out yet - we MUST wait for the board to announce. So at this point, it is only legitmate to compalin about the breakdown in the process than saying Meles lost already etc....Second, Based on my knowldge of the political situation in ETH before the election (I could be worng I am talking soley from what I gather), I did not think the ruling pary lade by Melse was gonig to re-linquish power by the outcome of the election, does that mean I support Melese should continue to lead even when after he lost the election, ofcourse NOT. And we should still wait fo the announcment of the election board to tell us who the winner is, election borad should be held responsible in the future, if they gave the election unfarily to one party or another.

So at the end, having seen the opposition, my personal view is that Ethiopia is better of to continue to be govrned by current ruling party for the next five years. And, I think, if Meles announce that he will give up power after his term ended (he would have been in power 19 years more than enough), overwhleming majority of ethiopian people will see that jesture as he is not there for his personal gain, and will give his leadership the support and solidarity it needs and required by the populus (provided he ask for it, and act like the leader for ALL of the people). I am looking forward for the next election, how we could learn from this one and grow from it. The next electoin may once again prove not perfrect but if we do not degrading each other and agree to disagree in well meaning manner, we can only benfit ETH and the future generation.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Dear Ethiopian,

Your second para is valid and sound on all grounds. We should wait and see what the Election Board is going to announce.

I said Meles has been voted out based on my own observation and it should be taken only as a personal observation. Why elese do you think government supporters would throw out local independent observers from their posts. Do you think the government would have done so to rig a few seats. I think not! They did so to overturn the results and influence the end result in their favor.

My good friend, Meles is using the political arena to protect his criminal economic empire that streches from Tigray to Somali region and monopolizes the market from paper distibution to construction, and transportation. If Meles is to leave and if EPRDF is to relinqish power TPLF's economic empire is going to witness a sunset. These are properties that have been stolen, looted and pileged from the Ethiopian people. For example, some of the Buses that TPLF owns were taken from Anbesa Autobus. The larger earth moving equipments that TPLF's consturction company owns were looted and or bought at dirt low price from the ethiopian people through fake bids and auctions. So, a good friend of mine, TPLF has transformed itself from a liberation front to a Looting enetrprise. It is this economic empire that Meles is guarding from the palace. So your wish that he would step down after 5 years is a wishful thinking, regardles of the promise he gives the Ethiopian public.

But the issue goes beyond economic and political issue. It is also a human right issue. Democracy is blind to the question of the oppositions prepardness to take over. If a candidate eneters the election (presumably meeting the qulification to run for election) then what matters is if he won the election or not. Regardless of the promise Meles and his people make today, nothing stops them from breaking their promises come next election. After all Africa's political landscape is full of stories of constitutional revisions to scrap term limits. Leave alone personal promises constitutional restrictions have not helped to move dictators out of the office.

One thing that gave the Americans the most stable democaracy and the most wealthy nations on earth is one critical insight that their founding fathers had. They believed governments are important to society. But they built their constitution with the assumptions that governments, left to themselves, tend to resort to brutal dictatorship. Each and evry Article in the US constitution is written with this assumption underneath it. Every time the constitution gives the government one power it put in place several restrictive chanis not to let it slide into dictatorship. What you are telling us is that to trust Meles and hope that things would be better. Things do not get better on thier own. What happened on June 8 is an example. Meles is ready to kill as many people as necessary to stay in power.

Your other premise that the opposition is not ready to govern has no merit to it. You do not even know the kind of people they have aligned to govern. But in democracy that is not a relevant question to ask. If the people vote you into office, that is the governing factor. Here is my reply to you.

Mamo Qilo

Mamo-Q - once again you writing is mesmerizing - you do have a talent. Let me dive right in and try to rebut some of the points you have raised. I'm sure you understand that if there is any democracy that is budding is ours (if it can be called democracy at this point - I say lets cal lit that). I am well aware of the advatages (or looting as you call it) some of the ruling party memebers or relatives of theirs taken, at the expinse of the average Ethiopian who is playing by the rules. Having said that, I think people like you and me need to lower the rethoric and tone down the volume on our accusation. If one day we have a truely democratic govt
come into power, and the letter of the constituion or law is going to be followed to the letter, every frauderster from past will be would be brought to justice. Be that is it may, one of the problems I see in yours (and many others) arugument is that they want everything to be rectificed NOW! I mean, come on. We have to prioritze what is best for the country
first. To me peac, stability and harmony are the first. Once we have those everything will follow. Just like when we budget our house hold - we can want the BMW, but we drive Toyota not because we don't want BMW but because at the same time we may have to pay for tuition, pay rent, buy food etc...). In due time we will drive the BMW no doubt.

My point is, we are all fairly smart and know the current ruling party hasn't govren fair and square in the last 14 years, but they have matured enough to allow the election, & have done some other posetive things lets be fair. At this point, I am willing to forgive (but not forget) and look forward not backward. I'm sick and tired of the vicious circlel we
are on - and we have been on. Enough - we have people dying of diseas, hunger is rampant...thta is what the focus should be.

You would agree mamo-Q, at some point we have to cut our loses and brake this vicoious cyle. We need to learn from Black South Africans, who choose to frogvie (via truth commision) and move forward, and are now living side by side by some of the monsters who had commited untold crime. Lets give each other a chance, lets give who ever the urling party will be a
clean slate - hold our noses if we must. Now if melese and TPLF are announced winners on this election, is there a chacne they will disappoint us down the line, ofcourse. However, if we build respect, dignity, equality to all the diffrents natilalities including Tegireans in the next five years, the people will unite and will not accept any
tyranical govt. As the saying go 'people united, will never be diffited'. Being an optimist, 5 years from now, I have full confidence in the intelligence of Ethiopians, not permit zeregnnet and all of us ormo, tigre, amhara, gurage etc...will not tolerate any one squick by without getting elected fair ans square. I am also hoping Constitution will get amended on term limit for the highest office in the land. I am here to say mamo, I would say you should volunteer to
be part of the people who will re-write the constituion, because you reason well and come across as a guy with a lot of
common sense.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Selam Mamo and Ethiopian

Clearly it is refreshing to note that questions can be asked and responses be posted without name calling. I thank both of you for your contributions.

As you noted, eloquently, I must add, I too agree that an honorable loss is by far better than a disgraceful win. There is always another election.

The Prime Minister presided over a process that has been considered fair and historic by all accounts. During the final weeks of the campaign, the political and cultural performance of the opposition and the ruling party was commendable so much so that other African nation envied the process. To that extent he deserves credit, and it is refreshing to pay credit where it is due. It is not right to get involved in “psycho analysis” and try to assemble his motives. (That is for historians to tell the next generation.) Regardless, he did the right thing until up to Election Day.

Despite the pressures of the forces at play, I don’t find his post election performance as democratic. Even for some one like me, who has no “dog” in this political fight, his post election performance has been undemocratic. Even then, I want to remain open minded and wait for the announcement of the final count. For those who know it all, I say that your argument would be stronger if you remain rational until all results are released.

With love to all of you!

Just re-read some of Mamo's point on corruption of the ruling party. I have few recommendations..

I highly recommend, for PM and all minsters and elected officials to disclose thier personal asset fully and willingly - no exceptions. And if they have any partnership, that too should be disclosed fully.

While members of the govt, all elected/apointed minsters public serving officals have to be prohibited from owning or partnering in any personal business p-e-r-i-o-d. They are there to server the public. Ofcourse, once they finish with their duty they can certinly go back to the business world as private citizines.

Disclosing personal assets and prohibition of any envolvment in business while in office, will go a long way in discrediting any future accusations, and Giving the elected govt officials the crediblity it must attain to be fully trusted!

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

Thanks for a civilized engagement. Let me first go straight to your issue of budding democracy. What this says is we are coming out of hundreds of years of dictatorship of one sort or another, (Minilik, Yohanes, Gragn Mohamed, Tewodros, Haile Selassie, Mengistu, Meles). We are also in Africa where democracy is in its infancy, to say the least. By these standard what we have witnessed is fine and we should not expect too much. This is a rather misguided approach and encourages the perpetration of dictatorship than promote democratic culture.

Here is why. If the primary problems we have were (a) logistical problem, (b) lack of interest and understanding of democracy by the general people, (c) lack of communication to promote your agenda, I can understand the merits of the argument. None of these are the major factors in our dilemma. A group of gangsters (armed looters) are trying to hold the people hostage. They are trying to steal the cotes of the people. If we do not rip the fruits of democracy this time around it is not because lack of institutional, organizational or operational factors. It is primarily because armed looters are asserting their interest by the barrel of the gun. Dictators do not normally give up power on their own. So your wishful thinking that Meles can stay for five years if he agrees to give up power is misguided on two grounds. One you are allowing to undermine the wishes of the people because you are afraid that he would not give up power without creating havoc and instability. So in short he has us as hostages, so we better not push him, lest he would destroy us. The second fallacy is your assumption that if we assure him to stay in office for five years he would give up power on his own. I say: Dream on.

I found your attempt to downscale their crime from armed looting to taking advantage of office. What TPLF is doing is unheard of even in Africa. Corruption by government officials and their families is a common phenomenon. But what TPLF is doing has no parallel in the World. Transferring government property (Anbesa Autobus) form public ownership to TPLF. I found your suggestion that I should lower the rhetoric and tone down the volume my accusation. Sir, the extent, degree and scope of corruption or armed looting are well documented by many international observers. This, sir, is no rhetoric. This is a fact.

You also suggested that one of the problems you see in my (and many others) arguments is that we want everything to be rectified NOW! You continued to say that we needed to prioritize what is best for the country
First. To you, Peace, stability and harmony are the first. Once we have those, you said, everything will follow. Yes but democracy and the rule of law are two critical elements in any society to have peace, stability and harmony. I think you have your priority upside down. You cannot allow someone to ignore democratic results, and violate the rules of the land, and expect to have peace, stability and all the crap. Sir, your logic stands on its head and looks around for a miracle. That is not how successful societies were built. You need the rule of law to prevail before peace can be achieved.

You said: "My point is, we are all fairly smart and know the current ruling party hasn't governed fair and square in the last 14 years, but they have matured enough to allow the election, & have done some other positive things lets be fair." May I ask you to read my message under "governing is different from winning election"? You will read why Meles allowed the election. It gives you both domestic and international factors and they have nothing to do Meles's maturity or readiness to introduce democracy. You see, my friend, dictators never introduces democracy. They try to use it to buy legitimacy both at home and abroad. Once in a while when it gets out of their hands and they stand to lose office hey bring their true colors. That is what we saw. Tell me if what they did on June 8-10 was a sign of maturity. Sir, let us get serious.

You also wrote: "At this point, I am willing to forgive (but not forget) and look forward not backward. I'm sick and tired of the vicious circle we
Are on - and we have been on. Enough - we have people dying of disease, hunger is rampant...that is what the focus should be. You would agree mamo-Q, at some point we have to cut our loses and brake this vicious cycle." I agree with every thing you said. I am even amendable to give Meles and company blanket amnesty both for their human, political and economic crimes. What I am not willing is to allow them to continue their criminal enterprise, especially in light f the total rejection by the people.

You write: "Being an optimist, 5 years from now, I have full confidence in the intelligence of Ethiopians, not permit zeregnnet and all of us ormo, tigre, amhara, gurage etc.will not tolerate any one squick by without getting elected fair ans square. I am also hoping Constitution will get amended on term limit for the highest office in the land." This is all nice, but it is built on fantasy and wishful thinking than by realistic assessment.

Mamo Qilo

Yilma,

You wrote: "I don’t mean to sound stupid; hopefully not. Why are people so sure that Meles lost the election? If I get it right, and I don’t claim to get things right every time, the final result is yet to be announced."

Here is why I believe Meles lost. Do you think you would cheat if you had won, especially when you know the international community (through their observers) are breating down your neck?

Assume you are winning by one vote. Would you cheat to steal 20 votes so that you have 21 votes more than you need to be a majority. Would you do this when 400 international observers have spread all over the country to observe?

Why would you kick local observers with a barrel of the gun from their assigned posts. This happened after it was obvious that the opposition had cleaned up Addis Ababa.

EU also suggested that their pool of 700 voting stations shows the opposition was winning by a comfortable margin.

Mamo Qilo

Email: mamoqilo@yahoo.com

Mamo - my first reactoin to your elquant, but misguided at times, reply is - what is worng with WISHING good for
your country. Some of it sounds like a dream to you, but what is wrong dreaming of better future.

I just want to draw your attention to the the 2000 US presedential election Bush vs Gore. As bitterly fought and polarized as that election was, there came a point when Gore had to decide if he was going to continue to push and futher distablize and ploarize americans or step aside and let bush win - he chose the later at the end. The lesson there, for Ethiopia and Ethiopians with good intention to their country is that, Gore chose to step aside at a great presonl cost/sacrifice to himself and his supporters, not because he liked bush, but because he loved his country and he didn't think it is in the best interese of the COUNTRY to ontinue in the path.

I submit to you, one has to see the big picture and not not be short sigted. Focusing on every injustince commited byt the TPLF party since it took power, and personlizing it and screaming will not resolve correct the injustice in the past. And demanding everything get fixed now is as unrealistic a dream as there is, in my opinion. I am glass is half full type of person, so I want to look forward. Up until now, it could be said that the ruling party didn't know what they were doing or they had an agenda just for Tigrai. But, I have seen signs in the past year where they now accept their Ethopianess, partly beacuse the Tigrian peopl feel as connected with the rest of the country as ever, and they don't necessarily feel that they should get all the benefit while the rest of the country suffer. Patly, I belive, came with maturity in the past 14 years.

Infact, I advise TPLF party to follow thru with the people of Tigray and embrace thier ethipianess with pride, and should say so at every opportunity. Because there are quite a few out there who are still questioning if they truely stand for Ethiopia. Looking forward, the wise course to take from here is that, as you have suggested, to Bgive the ruling part blanket immunity for the past transgration, with a precondition of they get their act together. That may sound appeasing to them, but I think we should breake the cyle at some point. Or I would like to hear a vailble alternative to this. My own reasoning is that it is better to start to re-build the nation with clean slate. We should not get obssesed with Meles and his comrades. Instead the foucus should be helping get a good democratic foundation for Ethiopia, so as a decade from now we will not have the same conversation.

Mamo-Q, I say to you, attacking TPLF with such venom and intensity and personlization is not the way to build the bridge to democtatic Ethipia. It will only antagonzie and make the ruling party defensive. Yes, gonig to war with TPLF is an option, but I say there is better way. Enough blood had been shade in the name of politics, so the focus should be compromise and forgivness and looking ahead. The generation before us failed us misreably, I don't care if they were members of the derg or not, everyone is responsible. This genration is well educated, well traveled and have better perspective and we should assume responsbilit and not keep feeding wood to the fire that will not produce any tangible result. Inc conclusion, lowering retohric and personlizining isults will creat a condusive atmosphere where everyone will work together. Also keep in mind that, throwing inslut from the side line is easier than having to govern a country like ours, who would be challenging for the best of minds in west let alone what we have at home.

On personal note: Mamo, as intelligentl a person you seem to be, you come across sanctimouinous at times that you should stop. I have heard complaint about Melse that, he can be arrogant and think he got all the answers and know it all, he like you should change that aspect. We, Ethipians have big heart, we give second chance to all who repent and are willing to learn from thier mistake ;)

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

Again thanks for your reply. I see nothing wrong with wishing good and definitely there is nothing wrong with dreaming for a better Ethiopia. We all do. My disagreement with you is that you wish to rely on wishful thinking to build the future. I wish to put in place an institutional safeguard, respect the wishes of the people and the law and then wish and dream.

I see your position as one that wishes and dreams that if we leave things as they are (for whatever reason) then things will sort themselves out. You do not even have any logical or procedural guarantee to assure us that if we allow EPRDF to stay in power despite the peoples wish, you dream and wish that EPRDF will reform itself. I am saying there is neither historical or logical support to such an argument.

You gave me the 2000 US presidential election Bush vs Gore. Ethiopian, the Gore / Bush issue is an aberration. That was a true contest. Neither was shown to have stolen the election. It was a legitimate disagreement on procedures. The other point is that even if there was a problem, the chance for it to repeat itself was zero. This is not the case in the Ethiopian condition. The chance that EPRDF would do exactly the same thing is very high. Actually extremely high. This is why I am your approach is built not on facts, but on wishful thinking.

You said: Focusing on every injustice committed by the TPLF party since it took power, and personlizing it and screaming will not resolve correct the injustice in the past." My friend, I am not saying let us rectify the past. I am arguing let us make sure that it would not repeat itself for the next five years. I have a legitimate reason to fear that left to itself EPRDF would do what it has been doing. And as far as they are concerned they do not even admit to any wrong doing. They believe what they have been doing was introducing democracy and justice. So they see no need to reform themselves. Your wish that they do reform themselves is on collusion course not only with my thinking, but also with their thinking.

You wrote: "And demanding everything get fixed now is as unrealistic a dream as there is, in my opinion." I am only saying that let the voices of the people as expressed in their votes prevail. That is the beginning of the reform and the healing process. I understand your concern that Meles is not going to accept this. That is what I am saying about armed looting or asserting ones political agenda and economic crime by using force. It is not a matter of half full or half empty glass. It is a matter of correcting the wrong and building the foundation. This is a long process and things cannot be fixed for a number of institutional, organizational and operational problems. That we need to struggle with for years to come. That is the thorny process. But the beginning of the journey is asserting the wishes of the people.

Ethiopian, You talk about breaking the cycle, but argue to continue the cycle. I asy breaking the cycle starts with respecting the voices of the people. I too believe we need to break the cycle that is why I said let us give them a blanket amnesty, let us not rush to revise the constitution, let us not engage in criminalizing the past, let us build the future together. But let us make sure that we all understand succumbing to the wishes of a dictator or trying to appease a dictator would only embolden him not help him to reform himself. No dictator has been appeased to submit to the wishes of the people.

You suggested that "I would like to hear a viable alternative to Meles's regime... My own reasoning is that it is better to start to re-build the nation with clean slate." Well I guess the people have spoken and given themselves the alternative. And a clean slate does not mean Meles should continue, but to the contrary.

I agree with you that once in a while I tend to sound and even act acrimonious. I should stop that. I can only promise to try.

Mamo Qilo

Email: mamoqilo@yahoo.com

Mamo-Q, appreciate your response and for staying above the fray ;) Now, I think I am taking into account some of the good observatoin from you. But, I want you to know I am not being naive and want to let TPLF off, easy or would I say they have build the crediblity in the past that will predict any better behavior from them in the futre - but with vigilant opposition and son's and ethipians staying on top of them, I belive they will be smart enought to turn this thing around, given things are done constructively. And people are codialte etc. I'm sure TPLF is very aware that tyrany sooner or later will end in a very ugly way, and 100% of the time the tyrant pays for it fully one way or the other. That ending, they will avoide, if for anything to save their own skin. But, I want us to build this situation with a win/win situation where, TPLF will learn from its past and the rest of us learn to behave properly, and stop the prevasive negativity and alublat tha tis consuming us.

Mamo, keep yp the good work. Stay on the message, and I still think you are focusing on the tree, you have to step back and see the forst. This forst(Ethiopia) is better of if all of us work together. TPLF please show us sing that you are listening, say you are sorry where you have to, show ethiopian people you will govern (if declared winners) fairly, no special treatment to anyone. Start the healing process here and now, pay compensation to the families of the people who dided during the demonstration, that would be excellent start.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

I am still not convinced that you are giving us any assurance or procedural guidelines to safeguard our future. My friend, there is already allegation both from UEDF and CUD that EPRDF is violating the very agreement it reached with them in the investigation process.

What I find unacceptable from your proposal is that you are asking the opposition to give up its victory. You are giving Meles and company the chance to steal the election and promise never to do it again. You would neither get the promise nor the behavior.

Your argument is still based on "Let us hope they will behave next time around. Let them steal the election, hopefully they will not do it again, if they know the whole world and all Ethiopian will be watching them." My friend, the whole world is watching them, yet they have not behaved. If your argument continues on this line, I guess the best we can say is to agree to disagree. I believe in safeguards, in procedural guarantees. You seem to be prepared to reward armed looters with the hope that the holy spirit will touch them or their contious would somehow start to bother them or may be they will start to realize they will not be able to continue like this or the combination of all these factros would change them. I think this is to forget the history of dictators.

Mamo Qilo

Mamo-Q (sorry for the length of this post - read thru...)

I am reading between the lines that you and some of the CUD supporters not only disagree but HATE the TPLF and every thing it stand for. So far that is ok. However, based on your postings I think you seem to aslo go so far as to not only like the party but HATE the people in in it (at list that is what comes across - I will stand coorected if wrong). Therefor they couldn't possibly do anything that could make you think of them in positive light, short of saying ok we screwd the country for the last 14 years, we have practiced zeregnnet, and we have sabotaged this election, and we now see the light, especially because you Mamo-Q and others have shown us the light with your accurate and 'courteious' arguments of our worong way, we will leave the office and give the elction to CUD. Please come and take over!!

Both YOU and I know that is NOT going to happen - that is accepting reality. Like wise some in TPLF evne most in TPLF feel that CUD is full of people who are Amarah/derg and are out to screw the Tigreans and other none-Amhara nationalites, and that CUD and its cohorts couldn't possibly speak the truth if they try. As soon as any CUD supporter opens his mouth, they will propably prepare rebutl before even hearing what he had to say. One thing we Ethiopians excell at is one upmanship and "elehe". It is obvious that this way of communicating will not get us any where and can not possibly benefit Ethiopia. We have to accept this behaviour about ourselves for better or worst. Good example of tihs is guade lekember Mengistu ofcourse, and look where he ended up. He too was larger than life invincible figure once upon a time, but all tyrants will go down one way or the other. He could have and should have change course when he had the chance, becase he was stuburn fool he ended as he did mainly beacuse he wouldn't listen, and was not willing to learn from his mistake. We have to change our way of thiking. We have to stop to ride right into the Tsunami when there are other laternatives we could/should persue.

What I am tell you is that, zembaba has to be extended from both sides. Mached must be burried. If for no other reason to move forward and keep the Ethiopian future and people best interest before our own self rageousness. If we, who know better, keep fanning the flame - NOTHING, I say, NOTHING will be resolved. TPLF will make its stand come what may, so will CUD and its supporter I am sure. So, to avoide this vicious downward spirle, What is called for is not name calling and gloating and making point based on what one said or did in the past. What we need is cool heads, arko asabewoch, looking forward and focusing on creating a SOLID FOUNDATION for consitituion of the country NOW. As I have said, we can bog ourselved down with Melese, Bereket or whatever, or we can look pass that. I choose to look pass that, willing to forgive them if they ned their way (not esy thing for me to say). And show this people sincer respect and willingness to work with full faith. I'm afraid we have to earn thier trust, partly because they are the govirning body and they hvae paid heavy price to be where they are wether we agree or not.

So in the spirit of that, I dare challenge you CUD and others to accept the reslut of the announcment by the electoin board. Whatever the oucome maybe. We should sotp cry faul before it is even announced, even if the writig is already in the wall that TPLF will retain the premiership.

So, I ask you mamo, the well versed brother, to chanell your energy in creating unity and not division. I challenge you to dig deep and find with in yourself (that I know is htere), the wise and mature part - to contribute to the harmony and unity of Ethiopia. On the other hand if, you choose to continue to go back to your excessive knowledge of - what could be interperted as true by some -, you will only achive making A POINT on this forum and not help make the change we so desprately need as Ethiopians. Think about it before you reply - a bit of soul searching is needed from all of us. Lets stop the vicious cyclye, lets stop the division - lets all act grown up.

I just want to stop, but want to say that one of the most amazing thing about American election , to me, is when two bitterly fought candidate (even attaking their cat/dogs) in the heat of the battle give the concessoin speach and acceptance speech at the last night of the election. (Please don't lecture me that the election in ETH is a fraud..), The candidate who lost calls the winner and congrtulate the winner, the winner WAITS for the looser to give his concession speach - in which he WISHES the winner the BEST - becuase he care's about his country and yes he didn't want to be the sore looser as well & want to have a chance on the next election. And the winner, thank his opponent and commend him for his brave and commendable candidacy. This is one of the most amazing part of american electoral process, and has ana amazing healing power. Now we are not any where close to american electoral or democratic process, but we can certainly take a page from that play book and apply it, because there is another election and the opposition has done well actually - so lets move on. Lets unite yes - I say TPLF, CUD, Amahra, Tigre, Ormow, Somale...what do you say....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

You argument is degeneratng to let us surrended regardless of what the outcome of the election is. I have no interest to continue this discussion. Thanks for your time. Forgiving the past crimes of EPRDF in the interest of moving ahead is one thing. But to say let them continue their criminal enterprse despite the wishes of the people is to propose to bend over and to tae it like a man. I ain't ready for that.

Mamo Qilo

Obviously, you missed the whole point, your conclusion to what I am syaing couldn't so wrong and I will leave it at that. I will stop this conversation knowing I made the QUILO stop....at list agree to stop spewing things you couldn't comprehend...People are giving you reply's because we think you are as intelligent as you writing, apparently when scratching your surface the true Quilo lies underneath - and he needs to shut up and listen and learn....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Dear Ehiopia,

If the TPLF have gunned down your mother or members of your family, would you still pretend like nothing has happened. I think that is what you are expecting from others to do. Pretend that the world is such a wonderful place, because you and your people are happy.

The time has come, once and for all things are going to change in Ethiopia and we are not going to wait until next time for things to be better.

Remember “the cat is out of the bag” and the international community finally know what kind of a leader your master is.

What kind of a message board is this?
A single individual posting and replaying by changings his penname. What a fun! "SRA YAtA MENEQOSYE KOBUN QEDO YSEFAL"

City: addis a

Ethiopian,

You seem irritated. Why? Let me ask you two simple questions. Please answer them without going around the bush.

1. Assume the NEB concludes that EPRDF had won, but it is proven to you that the investigation process was nor carried out as previously agreed by the government, the opposition and NEB. You would still propose to let EPRDF have an other 5 years. It appears to me you would.

2. Assume that the NEB gives the margin of victory to the opposition, but EPRDF tells them to go to hell. Would you still propose to let EPRDF have an other 5 years. It appears to me you would.

If your answer is no you would not allow EPRDF to rule given either one of the two questions above, then all your arguments until today were misleading or misguided or may be even both. I was quite surprised how quickly your messages degenerated to personal attack. Why did you do that?

Mamo Qilo
Mamo Qilo

Addisu,

What is up with you. Why do not you post messages and see if people would respond to them. You owe Ethiopian an apology.

Mamo Qilo

Mamo,
You were right, I was a bit frustrated, because you seem to have concluded - I want to give blank check to TPLF no matter what! I feel like, you are missing the bigger point I am trying to make. I think you and some are responding to only the parts that sits near and dear in your mind. You mamo, I expect more from. So here I go again. My main point is that is we need to give peace and harmony a chacne at some point, and I'm putting forward an alternative that seems to go agains the wave of some compatriots thinking in response to the current political upheavel. To me, cussing and demanding Melese/TPLF leave office because we know he/his party has cheateed is not going to softn the TPLF stance, infact it will harden it. By, saying this am I support TPLF blindly - NO I AM NOT. What, then, am I saying I sound like I am talking with two mouth at the same time, one might think....read on.

I don't belive the naming calling and billitling of TPLF and its members on this forum will make (and I will bate additional $1000 to ethiopian charity), TPLF/Melese leave office. To the contrarry, it will make them hold on harder, craking and taking back what little of civil liberty there is in Ethiopia (we have to admit there has been since they took office - even if it is only to say what you want to say). And, I will bet most of this people who are so quick to accuse me or you of your Ethiopianess simply beacuse we bring altertive views, will be on plane to Addis for New year party in Decemeber - even if TPLF wins. That means there are a lot of talker, who will only make things worst to the people in Ethiopia, and will not back their mouth with any action if it comes to that. I'm prediciting TPLF will be announced winner, here again I am not endorsing TPLF - but simply stating what my obsercation tells me. What I am syaing is that the opposition went wrong when they decide to participate in the election, having known the make up of the commision. Now crying the commision might decide something we may not like, makes them look like fools.

So, Having known about the commision, and now awaiting the announcment of the election, they MUST accept what ever the commision decided. If the commision announce the winner to be TPLF, do I personally think that the commsision was probably byas - I DO. However, I want to see pass that. Partly because the alternative option is not going to benefit Ethiopia in the short run or long run. I am willing to give TPLF a chacne if they win. On the unlikely event CUD wins and is announced winner, I will NOT say lets support with TPLF anyway. I think this makes me realist. So, if CUD win I will be urging TPLF to come and support CUD to run the country, but for us to demand that when the time comes, we must lower the bile we are exchaing across this forum and a lot of other places.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Addisu,
I should bite my toung, I think you one of those fools who sit around and watch and just redicule others. Mamo and I are two diffrent beings. Not everything is consipiracy - sound like eritrean. We are ethiopians and some of us are dearing to frankly discuss - if you have something to add do it, other wise save your teret-ena-mesale le ferege...

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Mamo q.
I give you 5/5. keep it up.
go and tell this guy "ehiopian" is a tigrean woyane symphatizer trying to tell us that
I. we like it or not meles is staying
II. he don't like shawls performance on bbc
III. let's love the tigre people evenif they send their agazi army and kill our people.
what a hypocrite argument is this
we know meles is doing everything to stay in power but just watch his time is coming to end soon.

Death to meles/Tplf/woyane

God bless the Ethiopian people.
tade,addis ababa

Dear Ethiopian, and MAmo

I read your posting so patiently. Is a nice chat.But, you can't reach consensus, it is a fight between an optimist and pessimist individuals.

Personaly, I agree with most of the ideas of Ethiopian. MAmo Qilo wants just going to war with the EPRDF and thge result will be obvious. He will be totally defeated.So, my advice to him is;

First, don't take every allegation of the opposition for granted. Some of these are totaly fabricated lies.

second, don't declar war which you won't fight.At least avoid your hatred for it obviously will backfire on you.If you are expecting the people to fight for you it is wrong. They did it for Mengistu(who seems is your kin)and the reciepent was clear.

Then, don't tru to pour petrol on fire.

Dinku,

Email: dinku_20042@yahoo.com

City: Addis Ababa

Let me emulte mamo and say Tade, Taduka, tadneh ante keftafu-tad;-)

You are one of those hypocrits I am talking about, on one hand you say you love Ehiopia on the other you say he is a "tigre", as if being a tigre is an insult. For your information, I am not a tigrean, even if I am I wouldn't be ashamed of it, and I would tell you so righ here. I don't want to wate my time explaining to you my thinking - because you conclude as a high scool drop out - if that. But I tell you, you are one of those who see what they want to see. I will bet another $1000 you will not backup what you are saying with action if it comes to that. It is best for you and your types to sit there and hurl insults - and feeling that you are more of an Ethiopian becuase you are opposing Melese. Well there are 72mill of us, and hello some of us think a bit diffrently, having seen what has not worked. And geting tired of bigmouth so called Ethiopians.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

to tade-the fool

The last line ment to say "to bigmouth who pretend to love ethiopia and aspouse to democracy"..there I go I diagresed - I will stop...

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

If peace ought to come between Oromos and Amhras, then The Amhras must withdraw from Oromos land (Shewa province and Addis Abebeba). because, historically the land is belong to Oromos, not Amhras.

Email: Desta11@Hotmail.com

City: Canada

Dbalkew - it is obvious you are another moron. I bet you are not 'oromo', and you certinly don't have Ethiopia's best interest at heart. So, I will not fall in to this trap of going back forth with u. Here is an adivse - apply for asylum in Eritrea they would love you there, thier leader and you think alike....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian and Mamo should continue this debate: Post election scenarios

Speaking for my self, I am grateful to these individuals for articulating their views in a civil manner on issues of post election scenarios. I don’t know about the rest of you but I am learning a lot. I hope others either join the debate or sit and read like I do.

Here is my take so far:

I am in full agreement with Ethiopian regarding the need to be cautious and accommodative of the on going process perhaps out of concern to avert a potential pitfall. On the other hand though, I share Mamo’s logic to be alarmed of EPRDF’s credibility for transparency.
Hence, my questions:

1. If EPRDF wins and the results are verifiable, and CUD refuses to acknowledge EPRDF as the next legitimate government, what should Ethiopians in Diaspora do?
2. If CUD wins majority and EPRDF refuses to relinquish power, what is the most peaceful way to redress it?
3. If CUD wins majority but UEDF joins with EPRDF for a coalition government and make up a majority block, should the Diaspora community accept the legitimacy of the coalition government?

As always, with love!

ehiopian,
please take some english class somewhere. and for your information people in addis are fade up with your Tplf and we will get rid off them soon.
and for your information our country name is spelled as ETHIOPIA NOT AS YOU ILLITRATE SPELLED IT.
your PM insulted our flag one time and when you write the name of the country we love inapproprately it hurt us more. but we don't expect any better from MORANS LIKE YOU AND YOUR PM MELES NAZIAWI, SO it is ok but your days are numbered loser.
-----------------------------------------------
YILMA,
WAKE UP. what you talking about there is no if cud win or uepf win or thing here. TPLF thiefs and gangsters stole our vote. and don't be dreaming for meles the naziawi to hand over power unless we the people rise up and demand it.
GOD BE WILL THE ETHIOPIAN PEOPLE IN THIS STRUGGLE, to bring these criminals to justice.
and death to meles&co.

tade: addis ababa

Ethiopan

I read your and Momo debate very carefully and I came
up with this conclustion.

1 .You are G/S Weldmarim Replesment with new tone to put Mamo's fire out.

2. You must be writhig while chewing chat in some island.

3.You don't have a gut.

Tade,

You are simply a bull****. You don't belong to this forum.Please Shut up. How do you know if a vote is rigged?If are in Addis you have got you choice and there is no rigging. If you are telling us about the rural vote, you have no such right.By the way these are the people who librated you from the dergue.The peasants is the ultimate power of this country and you can't impose your will on them.

Yilma,

Should we care that much about the diaspora?You made you the king makers of our country? Please do your daily buisness and help your families.My last word, had you loved your country you wouldn't have got foreien citizenship. I well know everybody there applys for such status.

So, please allow the people at home to decide on their destiny.

Dinku

Email: dinku_20042@yahoo.com

City: Addis Ababa

To tade, taduka, keftafu tade and other like him - I won't respond to each...

Not just folks in Addis are fade up I agree, it is inside & outside Ethiopia. It is all over the world - not just Addis. We are fade up, sick and tired of seeing our beloved country in a state that she is in, with no end in sight. But Ethiopian people don't need Morons like you to advise them, because people like you make only matters worst. As we have seen so far! I say, it is time to see things from down side up. The solution to the political probelm in Ethiopia is not insults and saying we are mad, we can't take it - melese and TPLF must live now..bla, bla, bla. I have heard this kind of crap the last 14 years, and guess what, it did not make Melese/TPLF go away. Did it? The same hypocrits who were hurling inslut were seen all over addis in the last 14 years in da-clubs, what does that tell you about the amature politicians. You probably won't comprhend this, but hurling insult will not change the situation on the ground in Ethiopia, it will certainly not buy a bread to the average poor Ethiopian, or medicine to the sick.

Ta-idiot my friend, I forgive you because you know not much. You have quite a lot to catch up, at list you come to the right place for your edcuacatoin, please spread about ER to your friends, they will learn a lot. It is wisdom to know that you don't know. If you really care about Ethiopia, you come up with ideas where everybody wins. WIN/WIN is the only situation that will help progress us to the next stage, The alternative will keep us in the same vicious circle - and we have seen this time and again in our life time - Enough! It is time to give other approaches a chance. I say to the silen majority, who is more educated and can reason well to seapk up and try choosing diffrent apporach, other wise some half brain high school drop out will set the agenda and continue to lead us in the wrong path. It is time for the able sons and daughters of Ethiopia to step forward and speak up. We can do this....I am not saying my approach should be taken, but because I belive in it I will advocate it, until I see an alternative that is better than mine.

Einstien said "Madness is doing the same thing over and over again - and expecting diffrent result". We have seen approached that has not worked, we must stop this madness. My fellow Ethiopians, if you disagree with me it is fine, but at list lets agree that the cussing/insulting/billtling each other DID not work so far, other than increasing tention and exaserbating the situaiton in Eth. Changing minds and wining hearts will take partnership. Partnership require understanding. Understanding require respect and forgivness. It is time for fresh ideas, that will not include taking over power with a barel of the gun.

Let me drop this wisdom for you - taduka - We can not afford to deal with situatioin in Ethiopia "AS WE WISH IT TO BE, BUT AS IT IS", that is accepting dose of reality.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Yelma,
First of all we average Ethiopians, EPRDF and CUD must first lower the temprature, that is we have to hear some re-assuring words from all sides. This specially needs to come from the EPRDF govt. Now having said that, lets get into your scnenario. What is bellow is my 'personal' opinion and it should be taken as that...

1. If EPRDF wins, in that the eloctral commision decalre it a winner - CUD should accept it. And should give its support to the government, and participate in crafting the law and working for the ethiopian people. If CUD doesn't like the decision by the election commision, it file the grivances to the courts. Let the courts decid. If CUD, on the other hadn, decide to not particiapte in the government, then CUD will loose its credibility further. And after a year or so it will take itself out of any contention for taking over the leadership of Ethiopia. I think the CUD won seats should be up for re-election again.

2. If CUD wins and is declared winner cy election commision, the EPRDF should support CUD put into gear the peacful transition of power, and continue to work as oppostion party in the government. If EPRDF decide to not relenquish power, then it will also loose credibilty - I'm sure like Derg it can strat counting down when it will go into extincition. This will confirm once and for all that it is ruled by tugs who have no respect for the rule of law. Then people will start considering other way of removing them from power - hope we don't go there.

3. Whoever has majority is the winner. That is end of the story, and the loosing party should accept the result gracefully, and should continue to work to the betterment of Ethiopian people until the next election.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Tade,

You are simply a bull****. You don't belong to this forum.Please Shut up. How do you know if a vote is rigged?If are in Addis you have got you choice and there is no rigging. If you are telling us about the rural vote, you have no such right.By the way these are the people who librated you from the dergue.The peasants is the ultimate power of this country and you can't impose your will on them.

Yilma,

Should we care that much about the diaspora?You made you the king makers of our country? Please do your daily buisness and help your families.My last word, had you loved your country you wouldn't have got foreien citizenship. I well know everybody there applys for such status.

So, please allow the people at home to decide on their destiny.

Dinku

Email: dinku_20042@yahoo.com

City: Addis Ababa

Trod on,
Keep reading you will learn! If you want to realy realy learn here is a hint for you - when you read try to keep open mind. I will bet, you are in mamo fan club (don't balme you for that), but don't be one of those "I made up my mind, don't bother me with the facts", if you are life will be cruel to you. As for mamo, he at list try to explain why he disagree, and gives his reasoning...I can always respect that......

BTW - I'm on an island but not on chat...I asure you of that - my mind doesn't need that type of stimulant to say what I want to say....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Diku - What kind of lame question is "should we care about the diaspora?" yes you SHOULD care about the diaspora and about every Ethiopian everywhere. If you can not comprehend that, you practice what you preach to Tade, you should shut up and listen and learn...

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Dinku - What kind of lame question is "should we care about the diaspora?" yes you SHOULD care about the diaspora and about every Ethiopian everywhere. If you can not comprehend that, you practice what you preach to Tade, you should shut up and listen and learn...

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

First,

My reply to Dinku is that your line of reasoning is beyond what I can handle. You are way above my head. I have a grate respect for your intelligence and out of this respect I must totally ignore you. This, sir, I must do for your own sake. I do not want to be cruel by decimating your own impression of yourself. This I must do out of my respect to our readers who would not be keen to see a road kill in the middle of the cyber space.

Let me now move to Ethiopian. Rhetoric aside, our position seems to converge in two of the following three scenarios as put center stage by Yilma.

Scenario one: If EPRDF wins and the results are verifiable, and CUD refuses to acknowledge EPRDF as the next legitimate government, what should Ethiopians in Diaspora do? Not that we have any power, but we must condemn CUD for not accepting the wishes of the people. Not much else is needed, since the opposition does not have much of a power to over throw the government.

Scenario Two: If CUD wins majority and EPRDF refuses to relinquish power, what is the most peaceful way to redress it? Again, not that we have any power, but we must condemn EPRDF for not accepting the wishes of the people and help the opposition both morally and materially to gain their hard earned victory. And we should not allow EPRDF to steal the election.

Scenario Three: What do we do if NEB gives the edge to EPRDF, but the opposition has legitimate grievance both in the process and the results? Here Ethiopian seems to wobble between two opposing arguments. First he argues that sine the opposition has accepted NEB as a legitimate institution and entered in the election, it must accept its final decision rather than to cry foul. In another message Ethiopian argues that the opposition can appeal through the legal system. At superficial level his first position to accept whatever decision the NEB renders sounds more like what the likes of Gebreselassie would argue. But at a more fundamental level, this position negates the very argument that Ethiopian has been advancing. That is a peaceful struggle requires using all legal means and working within the system to the extent possible without relinquishing ones right than throwing stone from outside. The opposition’s decision to participate in the election was a stroke of genius, though Ethiopian at one point says this may be a mistake. Their decision to allow NEB to investigate and their agreement to engage in a peaceful investigation process is a darn smart move. Neither suggests or calls for giving up their inalienable right to govern if they have won the election. Once they hear the decision of NEB, the opposition has two options that are within the boundaries of what is permissible by the constitution. First is to go to court. The government can drag this for months or even years. The second option is to call a national peaceful rally and force the government to accept the wishes of the people and relinquish power peacefully. It is up to the leadership of the opposition to decide what option to take. My take is that Ethiopian would not wish to do anything that would upset the government. His position boils down to one simple proposition.

I stand to be corrected, but my reading of Ethiopian’s position is that the opposition should avoid confrontation with the government, under any circumstances. This is out of concern that the government will unleash its Agazi Army and murder innocent people. Put bluntly, the government would use violence and we should not corner it to do so. Let us hope and try to be nice to them, may be even send them flowers and chocolate boxes to win their hearts and minds. I may be trivializing this, but literally Ethiopian’s position boils down to this. I believe he fails to appreciate that institutional and organizational incentive structure and constraint matrix govern the behaviors of governments. Appeasing them with respect and showering them with nice and carefully crafted words would not do much to convince them to give up the power of corruption that seems to have intoxicated them. Having said that I would accept that name-calling would not help either.

Ato Yilma raised an interesting issue: What if “CUD wins majority but UEDF joins with EPRDF for a coalition government and make up a majority block, should the Diaspora community accept the legitimacy of the coalition government?” Of course, this is the essence of democracy. We should expect a realignment of coalition no mater who takes power. CUD’ and UEDF’ honeymoon is to end with bitter divorce unless CUD plays its card right. This would allow Meles to form a meaningful coalition with UEDF. CUD needs to abandon its fundamentalist stand on nationality questions. It is a question that is moot at this stage. It can only be used by EPRDF if CUD makes an issue out of it. That would be idiotic.

Mamo Qilo
submitted on behalf of
Gebreselassie Zemariam
& Dr. Ibrahim

Mamo,
I take your point that - some of my sentences seem to be stepping over each other. But, the totality of the body of my arugment is that - we need a new approach, lets see if there is win/win for every one, lets lower the retohric. To get there we have to take some "good will" steps (ala Israel/Palastine) - or is it "confidence building - lil' steps". In an effor to put myown confidence building step, I come across as apeasing TPLF - then I am hear to tell you that is not my aim. But, I have decided to focus on the poistive side of things. Since I am new to the Ethiopian polical arean (arguments like yours I credit for getting me interested), I want to see if we can start clear from here on out.

Having heard all kinds of give and take on this forums. Two major thought processes standout (forget the haters - they are hear to distract us and create divsion amongst us), and I am paraphrasing but here they are:

ONE: There are those who want justice to be served NOW, and they are willing to gamble everything unless all the wrong is corrected ASAP. And they resort to getting this, not by sound arguments, but by preaching back to the same quire who belive in the same thing already - with quite a lot of divisive lanuge I might say. My take ont his is - this is a tried and failed approach, While this is noble and correct - I'm saying the likely of everything rectified the immideate future is not there. So, I am asking myself, how can we get to this nervan democracy in Ethiopia in a diffrent way than the one that is tried and tested. I am thinking we have to look at things in WIN/WIN way - forgive where we have to, but not forget. Learn where we should teach. Comprosmise means swallowing some bitter pill - that is wha tis in order.

TWO: The other is that, lets take baby steps to the middle with respect to opponents and see if he/she take some steps towrads us. Lets take a new directon and try it. I honestly belive all of the Ethiopian people be it Tigre, Amahra, Wulamo, Ormow, Gurage have so much more in common than differences. I think we can make this apprent if we start showing real progress in the country where it counts, this will unite us, I belive, and will take us to the promise land that we all dream of. Ethiopia is merciful and giving - she has more than wealth for all of us to prosper together. That may sound a bit idealistic to some, but I am here to say lets try it. Sick and tired of the negtive and the synics. I know we have the best part that can take us to pecful and democratic place....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

I think your argument is losing steam and it has become obvious that it is devoid of any merit or strength. Sorry for being blunt.

You accepted that some of your positions are out of step with each other. That is what happens often when you are pushing a position that is inherently flawed.
Sooner than later it loses internal consistency. This was bound to happen and it is becoming more and more obvious, even for a fool such as myslef.

You suggest that the totality of the body of your position is that "we need a new approach, lets see if there is win/win for every one". But what you have not succeeded is to show us what that win/win situation is. You talk about good will steps, but you are asking only the opposition to make the good will steps. You seem to be afraid of asking the government to give up any thing, not even to return what they have stolen.

You rightly noted that "In an effort to put my own confidence building step, I come across as appeasing TPLF - then I am hear to tell you that is not my aim. But, I have decided to focus on the positive side of things." Sure but what is the positive? What I have read thus far is your advice to the opposition to unconditionally surrender. Surrender even what they have won and agree to let EPRDF to keep what it has stolen.

You wrote; "Having heard all kinds of give and take on this forums. Two major thought processes standout (forget the haters - they are hear to distract us and create division amongst us)" I believe you are referring to the Gebreselassies and the Hagere Ethiopias of this forum. But at the end of the day your position is more aligned with Gebreselassie than with Hagere Ethiopia.

The next paragraph contains the seeds of contradiction in your argument. It is the weight of these contradictions that would force your position to collapse on its own without any push from an outside force. Here is your statement:

"There are those who want justice to be served NOW, and they are willing to gamble everything unless all the wrong is corrected ASAP. And they resort to getting this, not by sound arguments, but by preaching back to the same quire that believe in the same thing already - with quite a lot of divisive langue I might say. My take on this is - this is a tried and failed approach, while this is noble and correct - I'm saying the likely of everything rectified the immediate future is not there. So, I am asking myself, how can we get to this nirvana democracy in Ethiopia in a different way than the one that is tried and tested? I am thinking we have to look at things in WIN/WIN way - forgive where we have to, but not forget. Learn where we should teach. Compromise means swallowing some bitter pill - that is what is in order."

Ethiopian this is pure rhetoric and a dangerous one at that. Let me deconstruct.

First, the first line "There are those who want justice to be served NOW, and they are willing to gamble everything unless all the wrong is corrected ASAP." Let us put some flesh on this and see if it would withstand logical pressure. Assume that EPRDF cheated. This is injustice of the highest order - i.e., violating the wishes of the people. The opposition is saying that it is not willing to compromise on this. It is the government that is gambling by stealing the votes of the people and testing how far it can push the people. Unlike your statement, the opposition is making a sound and constitutional and legal position. Your statement that "And they resort to getting this, not by sound arguments, but by preaching back to the same quire who believe in the same thing already - with quite a lot of divisive langue" is groundless and accuses the wrong party. If you are talking about the likes of Hagere Ethiopia it is one thing, but if you are talking about the legal opposition in the country your statement is off the mark, misguided and dangerous. Your political position should be formed on what is the official policy of the opposition not on what the likes of Hagere Ethiopia do and say on the cyber space.

You talk about WIN/WIN situation, but all I hear you say explicitly and implicitly throughout your messages is that the opposition should be patient, wait for next election and hope for the best. I am yet to hear you say a thing about what the government should give up. At least try suggesting it should return what it has stolen. Try suggesting that it should stop armed looting. Praising them is not going to help the change their behavior. You cannot make a nobelman out of a thief by calling him your honor.

Your point TWO is pure rhetoric. It makes us all feel good but gives us nether assurance for a better future nor guide us how we can take a step in the right direction without giving a licence to armed looters to walk all over us.

Ethiopia, I must say this may be my last message on this unless you come up with a convincing argument. So far you are repackaging the same position, but visibly getting more and more uncomfortable with your own position.


Mamo Qilo
submitted on behalf of
Gebreselassie Zemariam and
Hagere Ethiopia

Mamo,
Once again you are seeing what you want only: I must admit you are good at spliting hair analysis. While this server good purpse on some occasion, it could blind you on others. You are better than just thorwing accusations, I thought. Go ahead and look back my posting - I have asked for quite a lot from the current govt (I admint not in the same way you do, and not same request, but I made just as many request of them) with t calling them thieves/looters, etc.. don't let my language selection when talking about EPRDF/govt fool you into thinking I am unhappy with some of what went down, but as I have said I am looking down the road unlike you. But just to prove my point here is what I suggested to govt thur out my exchanges with you and others......

1. Stop corupption now. All govt officials MUST disclose all of thier personal assets with no exception.
2. No government official should be in private business while in the office.
3. Melese promise to resign after his third term "IF" elected.
4. Term limit for the highest office (2 terms) max must be taken.
5. Appologize to the families of the demonstrateor who go tkilled (even before the investigation).
6. Pay repatriation to the families of the people who got killed while demontration.
8. I say prove that you are Ethiopians and speak to all Ethiopians that you stand for them, by word and deed.
9. If election commision delcare CUD winner, EPRDF should fully support CUD - if not then other alternative option will be taken on them.

I have suggested this and many others but you seem to have glossed over them, I think because you see what you want to see, you hear what you want to hear. Problem with people like this is that they NEVER get the complete picutre - since they are too busy to make their point.

As for the WIN/WIN - if you haven't gotten thru all of my messages above, I don't think you will get it with any more additional arguments - so I will leave it at that.

(The importance of the list I have in not in any particular order..I wrote them from memory.)

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

I have read some of the points and have responded to them. I do not remember seeing the others, for example paying compensation to the recent victims. As you said I may have glossed over it. But in all honesty I do not think you can accuse me of not reading you or lacking to understand the gist of your arguments.

Let us look at the nine points you have highlighted and se if they have any weight or if they could help shift the balance of the argument in your direction. I submit to you that items one through four are meaningless. Have you heard of off shore banks? I believe I have responded to your point about Meles promising to leave at the end of the next five years, if elected and also about term limits. Do you know, how many constitutions have been revised in Africa to give way to bootleggers to continue their stay in power? You just cannot allow bootleggers to steal today with the hope that they would reform themselves next time around. The mentality of bootleggers does not work like that. As I have told you that TPLF ha a criminal economic enterprise to protect by using the political establishment and the state security machinery. You cannot change their behavior by appeasing them or by giving them more than they have earned.

Points five and six, though appear noble, in a grand scheme of things they mean nothing. We are talking about the lives of 70 million people. Compensation for 200 families dead and wounded is not going to redress the problem that afflicts 70 million people. It is a superficial solution for a fundamental problem. There is no point seven. I think it is typo. Point 8 is pure rhetoric. It is nothing other than pure rhetoric. Your point 9 is the only thing we agreed on. This I have noted in my previous email.

Mamo Qilo
submitted on behalf of
Gebreselassie Zemariam and
Hagere Ethiopia

Mamo Mamo Mamo, I mean - you come across as a man with some brain at time, at times you just blaber stuff without thinking it thru - you are like one of those 'whose strenght is also their weakness". How the hell do you minimize reduction of corruption (root of all evil), paying repatriation to those who got killed injured is nothing!! Come now, you know better - it does mean something, it will start positive vibes. And the govt has to start somewhere. I think you will only want to hear for TPLF to give you the key to the palace and get out of town anything less will not suffice. This is the kind of thinking that will pull us back again and agin and agin. I will bet you $1000 in ETH charity, come September, EPRDF would have been announced winners (NO I AM NOT SAYING IN SUPPORT OF THEM - but that is a prediction), if I am worngn I will send my check - you can name the charity. And once they won, the opposition will quitely continue in the parama as minority - nothing else will happen. All this hoopla will die downb in 3 months). I would rather start partnership with TPLF "IF" they are declared winners, ofcourse the same with CUD - but since I don't belive they will not be announced winners (not saying I am against them), then they should stop disrupting the country further and learn from Gore....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

All I say is you have learned the wrong lesson. So all the hoopla on your part was for nothing, sinc eyou know the end result and you are ready to accept the inevitable, regardless of the wishes of the people. So all the hoopla was for feel better and for psycoterapy. Gore is bad example.

It was a good debate, let the readers form their opinion. I would not bet you $1000 dollars. Lemangnawem, if you lose send your money to UDEF on my behalf.

Mamo Qilo

Dear True Ethiopian:
As Somali saying goes" The camel will make up his mind and pretends to hold a fruitful discussion with the opponent". Yes,Ethiopian people have participated in the new democracy that is blossoming in Ethiopia unless the socalled opposition group namely cud will derail and make a bloody one. For example, Ethiopian opposition group were given the change to dialogue with words and not bullet. This is never happened in the old Ethiopia.
In essence, The so-called opposition group particularly the one that is campaigning to reinstate the hegemony of one nation to the rest of Ethiopian must open its mind and heart to his country’s fellow. It must listen to what they have to say instead of continually being on the defensive in an attempt to justify his own agenda.
Moreover, last week, a respected Somali elder weighed in on the argument and told to the public who gathered in Jigjiga that the opposition group should walk in the same line of thinking with the reality at hand. Another member of Ethiopian Somali democratic council concluded that the main obstacle Northern has when aiming at ruling is the fact it is still riding as a pillion passenger with the old thoughs and ideas and pretending to be in the mindset of embarking Ethiopia in demcracy and rule of law.

Email: shirdons@yahoo.com

City: Washington DC

Selam to all

Let me make my self clear on one topic that often comes in the middle of meaningful discussions: the role of the Ethiopian Diaspora. Rest assured that I am skeptical about the role the Diaspora defines for it self; it is often grossly exaggerated and unrealistic. For example, in the aftermath of May 15 election, our politico brothers and sisters, mostly in DC and perhaps in Paris as well, wanted to seize leadership of the opposition and captain the “ship”. (Even our own beloved moderator was tempted; no offense Ato Elias). With that cynicism, I think it is healthy for those Ethiopians and Ethiopian Americans to have a say, even to try to influence events within bits and bounds, on matters that they consider close to heart. Ethiopian, Mamo and the other participants on this forum are just doing that.

Going back to Mamo and Ethiopian discussion…
I think Mamo and Ethiopian have covered all the essentials that many can agree upon. Surprisingly, they have more in common than they probably realize it. Ethiopian wants to avoid violence and unrest even if it means “appeasing TPLF”, and he basically wants a “win/win” outcome for “everyone”. The problem with this argument is that a “win/win” outcome should not be the measuring stick when it comes to counting votes. Votes must be counted and counted accurately regardless of who wins or looses. There can not be a “win/win” count unless it is tie. In that sense, Mamo holds the edge in this debate. Mamo said… if EPRDF wins, “we must condemn CUD for not accepting the wishes of the people”. That pretty much sums up about respecting the voices of the people regardless of who wins.

Further more, neither advocates violence as a means to redress any injustice that may have occured or may have yet to occur in regard to the May 15 election and its verification process. I think there is something to celebrate here: Ethiopians have more in common to unite than that separate them if only they can deliberate on differences.

Thank you for sharing your insightful thoughts.

Yelma,
I am sorry to sad to see you are selectively quoting me out of context. My reference to the "WIN/WIN" is not on the vote count, don't see what you want to see.
I said lets give the next governing body a chance and clean slate, and based on my observation I think it will be EPRDF (this doesn't mean I am endorsing them). If that comes to you as apeasing TPLF, then follow the school of thought of insluting and cussing and then disparrearing into thin air after few months group. Knowing their TPLF past, I ask them to repent and mend their way, and I am conciously giving them a chance.

If you are decent man you will take back what you said! Because it is simply wrong.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Yelima,
One more thing - the diaspora matter. If you are not wise enough to know that then - I think you are exposing your intellect. The diaspora can be a destructinve force within Ethiopia from a distance. The disaspora, for instance, simaply can fund (and it has the means) the guns and bombs to distrupt the country. Or stop investing/going to Ethiopia which will not help the country economically. On the other hand, diaspora can bring new investiment to the country, bring know how to the country ...so to say the diaspora really doesn't matter is a very narrow minded view.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian

you said let's give the next governing body a chance for clean slate.

Can you explain it to me how the term CLEAN SLATE will apply for the current rulling party ?


thank you

Ethiopian,

Mamule's reading of your argument is right on the money. You can go back and read your arguments. Actually Mamule 's interpretation of your argument is a moderate presentation of your position. Time (few days) has proven your position as wrong. You cannot run away from your record. You cannot ask people to apologize for explain your position.

Mamo Qilo

Mamule,

The problem with Ethiopian proposal is that he is into "positive vibes." He wants to create positive vibe. That is why I suggested in one of my messages to send Meles flowers and may be even chocolate box. I usually associate positive vibes with Friday romantic nights not with political policy making. But times change and every one is entitled to his opinion.

Mamo Qilo

Ethiopian you have lost your bet already. Please send the $1000 to UEDF. Thank you

Mamo Qilo

Mamo-Q, I know you missed my rebutle ;o) Don't worry I am not gone, I was catching up with other things. I will come back to you and show you how amturish you - still - are. And will expose the negtive loud mouths...stay tuned brother....

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Ethiopian,

What rebutal. Your position was rendered lifeless by EPRDF and NEB. All I helped do was throw light on the contradiction and weakness in your argument. The rest was done by Meles, whome you tried to "positive vibe." He negative vibed you. You can either listen to me or continue to try positive vibing meles and get negative vibed by him. Either way Good Luck!

Mamo Qilo

Selam Ethiopian

I am sorry I was out of town and unable to respond to your comment quicker; I mean no disrespect. The part where I said “Ethiopian wants to avoid violence and unrest even if it means “appeasing TPLF” was out of context. You are right; I was wrong. I should have said: Ethiopian wants to avoid violence and unrest even if it appears “appeasing TPLF”. Indeed, my sincere apology to you is in perfect order.

Having said that, I think it is constructive to remind you that it is not an astute way to make your point by broad-siding everyone with just “one size fits all” kind of argument when it comes to the Diaspora community. They/we are as diverse as they/we can be. While I agree with you that some members of the Diaspora may play “destructive” role, I also believe that majority of it can be a constructive force in building Ethiopia economically and culturally. Frankly, it is a force that both current and future governments need to reckon with and take advantage of.

On another subject, please stay on a positive note when deliberating your points, as you have done so eloquently in the past. Don’t go to name calling unless you want Mamo Quilo to have the last laugh.

Of course, sincerely and yes with love!

SEEK THE TRUTH AND "THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE"

Email: messayewossen@yahoo.com

City: los angels

Yelma,
You are a true getleman for appologizing - and guess what you are gaineing more respect when you own up to your mistakes. No one is perfect, to err is human. I think Melese/EPRDF should take a queue from you. Your poin on generalization of the daspora is well taken. However, in my opinion, Ethiopians in diaspora by and large want good for their country. Ofcourse there are those who have nothing better to contribute but negativism, and insult. And they are the loud once, unfortunately, the silent majority needs outlet to put alternative forward. I belive Ethiopia will benefit with all her sons/dauhters inside/ouside working together in harmony. That is what is eluding us harmony. I am taking my time to reply to you what I meant by "clean slate" on our earlier exchange - belive me it is not blank check. My fear is though if EPRDF wins and decide that diaspora is something it can ignore - it will have heavy cost sooner or later. As RFK once said - you want certain kind of people pea from inside out rather than from outise in. So wining the battle of positive force against the avalnche of negative force is of paramount emportance to all of us. The next governing body in Ethiopia be it CUD or EPRDF, must must lead the way in peacful thinking, and actually showin care and respect to the mass fear. It need to show example of courtesy and respect to ALL Ethiopians - I don't think that is too much to ask of one's own govt.

Email: mamo@yahoo.com

Selam Ethiopian

Well said, point well made, and message well received here. As you said, I also hope EPRDF listens and listens carefully. Its leaders have been talking for several years now withour regard to what the public wants. It is about time they start wanting to listen. Who knows? They may.

With love!

Ethiopian,

Gebreselassie is Ethiopian First. He is a moron too.
Ibrahim is Ethiopian First. He is psychologically confused politician
Ethiopian is Ethiopian First. Most Every Body is Ethiopian First, including Meles. Ethiopian now you have your critical mass, can you tell us what you are upto. Oh Moderator is Ethiopian First.
The Tugs who did a bad job on Gebreselassie in Colorado are Ethiopia First, too. Actually that is why they roughed up the trabal Bandit. So what, Ethiopian so what. So wat Elena so what.

Gebreselassie Zemariam

Mamo,
You impatient you - look at the other trail...

Yelma,
Respect!

Email: mamo@yahoo.com