Ethiopia is one of the poorest countries on earth. But in recent years western leaders have come to see it as a beacon of hope. A country dragging itself out of poverty by being served by better governors. But they regressed down. Parliamentary elections in May are a subject of hot dispute, and anti government protesters were shot dead, and now many Ethiopians fear for the future of their country. My guest today in his office just down this road is Ethiopia's prime minister.

HT - Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, welcome to Hard Talk.

Meles - Thank you.

HT - The Ethiopian elections took place on May the 15th. All these weeks later, there is no result, and the country is deeply divided. What went wrong?

Meles - Well what went wrong was we took a calculated risk from the very beginning. Much of the opposition had muted views as to what it wants to achieve through these elections clear from day one. Which is to carry out what they called Rose or Orange Revolution patterned along the lines of Ukraine and Georgia.

HT - Which is a peaceful democratic revolution. Which is their right as an opposition?

Meles - I'd have thought differently. Democratic elections are there to be decided by the outcome of the elections rather than by street demonstrations to subvert the will of the people freely expressed through elections.

HT - But without... too much details, isn't that precisely what we saw in Ukraine? That was a big dispute about the first election. So the election had to be conducted again. In the end, all sides agreed that was democratic.

Meles - What happened in Ukraine is quite different from what happened in Ethiopia. As you probably know, all international observers, without exception, said that the election process in Ethiopia was free, fair and transparent by any standard.

HT - No, no! They didn't, prime minister. With due respect, they didn't say that. The Carter Center, for example, from the United States, said there was much to welcome about this election, they said it was freer and fairer than Ethiopian elections in the past. But they also said, and I quote, "There was evidence that ballot boxes have been removed improperly, or were improperly secured, and party agents were excluded from the count. They also confirmed cases of intimidation and harassment, and said, "National elections Board officials were slow to respond or failed to provide any information."

Meles - Well, the overall assessment of both the Carter Center and the European Union said that the elections up to the polling day were free, fair and transparent.

HT - "Up to the polling day!" But not including the count?

Meles - Now when it comes to the counting, the opposition parties, which had all along challenged the free polling day process also, all the opposition groups, had been claiming that the pre-polling day processes, which was certified to be free and fair by international observers, were alleged to have been unfair and unfree. Having said that...

HT - Just...I have to... Well...

Meles - Let me finish...

HT - I've to...to a certain extent, the EU observers mission expressed, just two days after the vote, expressed, and I quote: "Serious concern over the threats and intimidations of opposition parties, including isolated cases of murder."

Meles - The point I am trying to make is that there is a pattern of crying wolf as far as the opposition is concerned. They did that before the election day, this was disproved by international observers, as soon as the elections were over here in Addis, the leader of the opposition told your service, the BBC, that the elections in Addis had been rigged and that they would not accept the elections in Addis. A few hours later, this very leader of the opposition discovered that they had made a clean sweep of the seats in Addis, and changed tact, and said, "Oh, oh, it is not Addis which has been rigged. It's places outside of Addis. Now we said 'OK. If that's your allegation, let's have the most transparent investigation into all alegations of electoral malpractice. Let's have the international observers. Do the observation of the investigations. Contrary to normal practice, initially the European observers said 'this not the normal practice, and we do not have a mandate.' We insisted that they stay on, and observe the investigations. Now one would have thought because we have put in place a completely transparent process of investigating allegations, people would wait for the results of the investigations.

HT - But the opposition parties are absolutely convinced that the preliminary results simply do not reflect reality. We spoke today to the opposition coalition group in the CUD today that Senior Coordinator Isaac Kifle said,"29 million people voted, and 26 million people said "No to you, the prime minister." The did exit polling. They have no doubt whatsoever that the preliminary results were rigged.

Meles - Well, you see, that is why we have judges, that is why we have observers, that is why we have investigations. If the outcome of the elections were to be determined by opinions of the contestants, we could say exactly the same thing about the opposition. And that would not lead us anywhere. What would lead us somewhere is for all of us to wait for the impartial investigation to be observed by international observers.

HT - Well, let's talk about that. Impartial investigation as you call it, it's basically being conducted by the National Electoral Board of Ethiopia. Isn't it?

Meles - Yes.

HT - Now, why did the National Electoral Board threw out the complaints of vote-rigging made in around 160 constituencies without even examining them?

Meles - You see, that's where you are making the mistake.

HT - Am I wrong?

Meles - Yes, you are wrong. You are wrong because international observers, all the parties got together, and decided on criteria for screening the allegations.

HT - But the opposition doesn't agree all the 160 constituencies...

Meles - No, they agree the criteria for selecting the frivolous from the non-frivolous, and on the basis of the criteria agreed by all sides, they threw out some allegations...

HT - Patiently the opposition disagrees with the way the criteria were applied.

Meles - If they disagreed with the way the criteria were applied, they have a process of redress, and that is a hearing, they have a right to a hearing, and this hearing will be conducted again in the presence of international observers.

HT - Let me ask you a simple question. Who presented the names of members of the election board to the House of Representatives' approval?

Meles - The National Election Board, the current board, was appointed over a decade ago, during the transitional period, and at that period, at that time, the president submitted the names to the parliament. Now if we were to appoint new election board members, it would be the prime minister, which would put the names to the parliament.

HT - Where were you at that particular time?

Meles - I was the president of the Transitional Government.

HT - You were the president?

Meles - Yes.

HT - So you still put forward the names?

Meles - Yes I did.

HT - Well, I think perhaps that's the point I am trying to get to. You put forward all the names of the people who are on the Electoral Board?

Meles - Uhm!

HT - And you now expect the opposition to believe this Board would be entirely impartial?

Meles - Well, I suppose the opposition parties in France expect their Minister of Interior to be impartial in elections and I suppose it is very similar in your country?

HT - But I suppose in most countries it would be unusual for one man to be in power for so long, and would control all the appointments for so long?

Meles - This is my second term, and I...

HT - You just told me you were the president the Interim Transitional authority before?

Meles - Yeah, the Transitional Period.

HT - So in essence, you have been in power for 14 years.

Meles - Is that unheard of in Europe?

HT - You conrolled all of these appointments, you are now demanding that your country regards this Electoral Board is absolutely impartial. And I'm asking you whether you are surprised that the opposition does not have confidence in this Board?

Meles - Well you see the opposition does not have confidence in the constitution and the constitutional process as a whole, and they said so. And they said they are going to change the constitution by unconstitutional means. They did not means words, they said so in public. In most countries such people would be behind bars.

HT - Given the divisiveness, given the problems Ethiopia now has, why does you simply call a new national election?

Meles - That is for the National Election Board to decide. I do not have the right to call new elections at my whim.

HT - You think it would be a good idea at this point given what has happened?

Meles - What?

HT - New election?

Meles - Probably it's a good idea, but that is beyond...I don't the power.

HT - I think it's important to clarify your thinking, your thinking at the moment might be a good idea to have a new election.

Meles - From the point of view of the EPRDF, it might be a very good idea because of many of the protested votes would have been addressed, and we would have had many more seats than we currently have.

HT - Let me turn to the political climate after the vote on May 15th. Why did you introduce emergency regulations very soon afterwards which essentially banned public protests, demonstrations in this country?

Meles - Well, emergency regualtions and banning demonstrations for a month are not exactly identical...

HT - It has been extended, isn't it?

Meles - Yes it has been extended.

HT - Well now to the end of July?

Meles - Yeah, the reason for that is because of what I told you earlier that the opposition had made its views abundently clear.

HT - What do you mean by that?

Meles - Because they had claimed they would use election process to carry out civil disobedience programs culminating in a change of power by unconstitutional means

HT - You are telling me the opposition leadership were calling for an anti-democratic revolution before the campaign is even finished?

Meles - A year before the elections started, one year before the election started.

HT - In that case why you did not arrest them? Because I imagine

Meles - We could have done that. That is what I was trying to tell you early on...we took a calculated risk. We said these unconstitutional maneuvers by the opposition are better challenged by democratic political processes...

HT - I think it's fair to say by the 6th of June it was clear that some people in this country were desperately unhappy with the way events were unfolding out to the election. They wanted to protest. Why didn't you let anybody protest at all in the streets?

Meles - As I said earlier, the opposition parties had been making threats of insurrections, and we felt it would be wise to let tempers cool off, and therefore we banned demonstrations for a month and that, for your information, none of our development partners complained about that.

HT - On the 8th of June, while police in Addis were faced with a large crowd, many of them students, what orders had you given the security forces?

Meles - Stop insurrection.

HT - Simple as that?

Meles - Yeah.

HT - Is that an adequate order, given slightly more nuances without how they should deal with children, young people, who might throw stones at them?

Meles - Well, you see, policemen are trained to control crowd...I do not presume to be an expert in crowd control and give instructions how policemen should do their job.

HT - You are the prime minister. You are the leader of the country. The police had tear gas, they had water canon, the protesters had some stones, apparently. Why did the police need to open fire?

Meles - I'm told that they could not restrain the demonstrators with tear gas, or water canon or even shooting in the air.

HT - Do you believe that?

Meles - Well, that is what has been reported to me until and unless an independent investigation proves otherwise, I have to believe it.

HT - So you believe that a group largely of students...

Meles - Not so students; 80 percent of the detainees were unemployed youth.

HT - Youth?

Meles - Yeah.

HT - They did not have a single gun amongst them?

Meles - I have not heard of any guns here.

HT - No guns at all?

Meles - Uhm.

HT - Even the police are not claiming they had guns?

Meles - Uhm.

HT - In your view, they still, the police had to open fire and kill we now believe to be around three dozen people?

Meles - I'm telling you that the police felt that the masses of the unemployed youth was coming at them, it was threatening to overpower them, they shot in the air, even that did not restrain them apparently because the opposition have the people if they push a bit, the police and the army would crack.

HT - So here we have, in your view, hundreds of riot police with the whole uniforms on, who could have been overpowered by a bunch of youth throwing stones?

Meles - Well, if it's a bunch of youth in terms of tens and hundreds, it would be unthinkable. If you are thinking of in terms of thousands or tens of thousands in narrow streets in the Mercato, and given the fact that we had three or four years earlier, riots in the same place, which resulted in many deaths, and burnings of shops, and all the establishments of that type, perhaps the police had reason to feel that they are being overpowered by these unemployed youth in their thousands.

HT - Amnesty International condemned what happened as "excessive and indiscriminate use of force." They said that international standards are clear, security forces can only resort to the lethal use of fire arms when it's strictly necessary to protect life. Do you agree with the standard?

Meles - Yes.

HT - So will you apologize to the families of those who lost their lives?

Meles - If it's proved that there was excessive use of force, yes.

HT - But you will not say here that you are sorry for what happened?

Meles - I'm sorry that people died but until an independent investigation is carried out, I'm not going to have a cangaroo court to judge the policemen. There has to be an independent investigation before I make the decision that there has been an excessive use of force.

HT - Your information minister, Bereket Simon, went further, and he said the alternative to the crackdown we saw that day was: "Strife between different nationalities of Ethiopia might have made the Rwandan genocide look like child's play." Did he clear that statement with you?

Meles - He doesn't clear his statement with me but whatever the superlatives there, I believe [pause]

HT - Superlatives?

Meles - Whatever the superlatives there, I believe that the risk of strife in Ethiopia was quite clear. And we've to put down an insurrection. It is the right and obligation of every government to do so. Whether there has been excess use of force is something that remains to be determined by an independent investigation.

HT - When will you publish the findigns of the independent investigation?

Meles - As soon as the investigation is completed.

HT - And how independent is it?

Meles - Well, in the past we've had independent investigations. And they have come up with results that we do not like.

HT - Who is running this one?

Meles - We will make the announcement when we are ready for it.

HT - What do you mean? Even you haven't started it?

Meles - We are studying the possibilities in identifying the personalities

HT - What message does that send to the Ethiopian people? You haven't even selected the people to begin investigation? This happened on June 8th?

Meles - We take our time, we study our case, and we make the decisions when we are ready.

HT - On June 11th you said (with the Reuters) the election in its aftermath: "Is an indication that our democracy is maturing."

Meles - Yes.

HT - What does it mean?

Meles - It means that the Ethiopian people decided to express their opposition and support through the free process of election.

HT - But 36 people have just been gunned down in the streets of Addis Ababa. How could that be a sign that democracy in this country is maturing?

Meles - The fact that 26 people have died ...

HT - I think it is well over 30.

Meles - That is your contention. My facts simply suggest that it is 26. The fact, well, I am not going to quarrel whether it is 36 or 26; even one person is one to many. In any case, the fact that people have died is regrettable but the fact that we have had a free, fair and transparent election is incotestable. The fact that people have had their say is incontestable. And the fact that all allegations of electoral malpractice are being investigated in a transparent fashion is incontestable. And these are signs of maturity that I'm proud of.

HT - Tony Blair called you; didn't he? ...After these events. What did he say to you?

Meles - He said that he was distressed that there was loss of life, and he hoped that we would exercise restraint in the use of force to stop riots.

HT - He had announced through his minister that Britain was suspending 20 million pounds of aid to Ethiopia. What did you think of that?

Meles - Well that's the prerogative of the minister; isn't it?

HT - What do you think of that?

Meles - I felt it was uncalled for.

HT - Do you like the way he used aid in that way? Did it convey any political message to you?

Meles - I don't. Because I felt it was not a knee-jerk reaction.

HT - Do you think it was a warning, a bigger warning to you about your political behavior?

Meles - Well we will democratize in Ethiopia not to please Tony Blair or anybody else; we will democratize in Ethiopia because it is good for us.

HT - Let me talk about your agenda now. Let us assume that the preliminary results of this elections, which gave you a victory are upheld, you're prime minister again. Will you serve four five-year terms, if that is the case?

Meles - That is up to my party to decide.

HT - What do you want to do?

Meles - I will wait and see what I want to do. It will depend on the circumstances.

HT - Actually you've decided what you wanted to do. I mean you stood for election, that you want the office?

Meles - I want the office to serve my country but I will only serve if I feel...I have value to add, I will continuously if I have value to add. If I come to the decision that I do not add any value, and then I will leave. Likewise if my party feels I don't add value, they can change the prime minister any time.

HT - Do you some danger in a leader staying too long? Some might point to Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

Meles - Well, people have to stay as long as the people want them to stay, and do so through freely-contested elections. The decision has to be that of the people in the final analysis. Now once that decision has been made, the leaders also have to make decisions as to whether they want to stay longer or not. The longevity of political leaders, in my view, depends on the quality of the democracy in the country. You've had stayed for over a decade. I don't think they became corrupt as the result of that. If people are going to be corrupt, they cannot blame the longevity as a reason for corruption. Having said that, however, more frequent changes of leaders is a safer and healthier approach.

HT - The G8 have announced major plans for debt relief, including Ethiopia. But they are tying it to the notion of good governance. Do you believe you've let your friends in the West down?

Meles - Well in the first instance if there was lack of good governance here we would have let our people down, not G8 leaders. And secondly, I do not believe we have let our people down. And therefore, I do not believe our G8 friends down.

HT - What's most important do you believe; is it debt relief? Is it more aid? Or is it fair trade?

Meles - The most important thing structurally for me is the fairer trading environment.

HT - Is that the one thing you don't get.

Meles - That appears to be the case.

HT - Do you think the G8 is serious about helping Africa?

Meles - Some are.

HT - Who?

Meles - I believe the prime minister is very serious about it.

HT - Mr Blair?

Meles - Yes.

HT - The same Mr. Blair who called you and talked about his distress of what was happening here.

Meles - Yeah, look. His decision about this holding of 20 million pounds has nothing to do with the good that he is doing in Africa through the Africa Commission. My views about his work on Africa do not depend on whether he releases money or not.

HT - The rich world wanted to believe that you, Meles Zenawi, one of the good guys in Africa, they believed you were doing your very best to deliver progress, reform, to your country. But one looks around the country today with an average life expectancy of 42, when millions and millions of people absolutely dependent on international food aid to avoid starvation, and when one does, after 14 years in power, what did you deliver for Ethiopia?

Meles - Not as much as I would have liked but much better than was the case in the previous 14 years. When we took over [power], primary school attendance rate was 19 percent. Now it's over 70 percent. I can give you all types of statistics. We have grown; economy in Ethiopia has grown on average between 4-5 percent for the past decade.

HT - But you're also telling me that if things go wrong, as they might you said, this country could slip into anarchy like Rwanda. You said that to me. Does that suggest you've established a level of stability and confidence in the future that can sustain this country?

Meles - We are not out of the woods yet. We are trying to get out of it. We've made some progress. But we are not out of the woods yet. I do not believe any African country, including South Africa, is completely free from risk of relapse ..of tragedy.

HT - Prime Minister Meles Zenwi: thank you very much.

Meles - Thank you.

Introduction by BBC?s Stephen Sacker

?Ethiopia?s Parliamentary elections were held in May, but we still don?t know who won! The opposition here (in Ethiopia) says that the government is to rob them of their stunning victory. There has been street clashes and serious bloodshed. But what would be the opposition?s next move?

?Well, my guest here is the leader of Ethiopia?s biggest opposition group, Hailu Shawel. Welcome to ?Hard Talk?!

?Would you accept that the Ethiopian election on May 15th was the freest and fairest in Ethiopian history??

Hailu:- ?Until the day of the election??

?Yes.?

Hailu:- ?Yes!?

?Because you had access to the media, you had the opportunity to debate with the ruling party. It was remarkable, wasn?t it??

Hailu:- ?It was the first time in our history, we had access to our people. At least we could tell most of the people what we stand for and what we have a dream for Ethiopia.?

?Do you think that, in light of what happened since the election, you have lost sight of just any achievement that democratic process was??

Hailu:- ?It was not only us! The people came [out] in masses - in big numbers - believing that this is a chance to say what they want to say. They lined up all day and in to the night, without any complaint. They cast their vote, but then came the danger. I call it a disaster!?

?Well let?s talk about it in detail. When did you decide that the vote count was rigged??

Hailu:- ?We had certain ideas from the beginning that there will be something.

?They didn?t wake up very quickly - I guess - that the voters were massive (that) was opposing them. But then??

?Mr. Hailu, why did you complain that the vote was rigged in Addis Ababa - at the root - in the capital city??

Hailu:- ?It was! As I told you just now, people were coming two times and the organizers were trying to, to tell the people what to do, where to put their marks and so on. But the people were refusing!?

?But this is puzzling! You are saying the vote was rigged in Addis Ababa.?

Hailu:- ?No, they were trying to rig it! Finally?

?But you were actually complaining that it has been rigged! As soon as the election ended you complained ?this vote in the capital city has been fraudulent.?

Hailu:- ?It was fraudulent!....

?Well how was that? What was the result in Addis Ababa??

Hailu:- ?It is a clean sweep of course for the C.U.D. There is no question about that. But ...

?It was a clean sweep for the opposition. What kind of a fraud is that??

Hailu:- ?The fraud was there, but the people overcame the fraud.

You should see what kind of calls we get the whole night. Who did what and there are marked ballots coming out. If you look at the wasted ballots, you will be surprised. And one of the observers from abroad asked me ?why all these?? - you know - ?wasted ballots? ?There were pre?marked ballots.?

?I think a lot of people, who watch this, will find it hard to take your claim that the entire vote was rigged, seriously. When in Addis Ababa - the capital - where one would think the government [as well as] the ruling party has most control of the situation the fact is the opposition swept the board. Every single one of the 23 constituencies was given to you??

Hailu:- ?You know why? There were observers in almost every location! They can?t do very much about it. In the cities and towns, where there were observers present, we swept it all! But where there were no observers, where there were peoples with guns, then the issue changed.?

?Well, let?s talk about the observers. Because the E.U. was here. The Carter Center from America was here. They did confirm some allegations of harassment and intimidation and inaccessibility of the vote count to their monitors. But they stressed there is much to be impressed about with the election process. Where is your claim of systematic, nationwide fraud? Because they do not say that.?

Hailu:- I think if you ask a little deeper, they will tell you that.

?But they have thus far not backed your claim. For example, Isac Kifle, one of you top advisers, he told us that ?26 million out of 29 million voters have been cast against the ruling party. That would suggest a 90 percent to 10 percent election result. Where is your evidence to back your claim??

Hailu:- ?The evidence is with the board itself.You look at the result?.?

?You mean the National Electoral Board??

Hailu:- ?Yes! If you look at the results, and what they chopped and changed on the paper; they didn?t even change the paper! They give us certificate for winning that precinct, and then the ruling party gets another paper with changed result on it. So we knew how much rigging there was. And there were areas where the whole box disappeared.

?You did present all this evidence to the electoral Board??

Hailu:- ?Yes!?

?So you presumably had confidence that once your evidence is seen by those members of the Electoral Board this wrong would be righted??

Hailu:- ?Well, under normal circumstances, it should be. But who is the `Board? who is the `Board???

?But do you really accept this process? Many wonder whether you are really acknowledging the right of the National Electoral Board to decide on who won on this national election.

Hailu:- ?I think you question is right! We have serious doubts! On who is appointed there and on what they did. From our own experiences, right now??

?Let?s cut the?the political nuance! Let?s be absolutely honest. Are you saying that this process is pointless?

Hailu:- ?No, I didn?t say pointless! If?.?

?But you just said that the Electoral Board is assigned by the ruling party.??

Hailu:- ?If you leave them alone, it is pointless! But if there are people working with them to ensure that the process is not secured as they would like it then they would have a chance to screw it through.?

?The Electoral Board ultimately appeared with the preliminary results; and it gives a clear majority to the ruling party and the current Prime Minister. Would you accept that result as legitimate?

Hailu:- ?If the process was legitimate, yes! If the process was?.?

?What does that mean??

Hailu:- ?That means, if it was done openly??

But you just told me you don?t believe it will be! So, in that sense you are saying you wouldn?t accept the result as legitimate.

Hailu:- ?No! They are saying ?We will now work openly. So we said let?s give it a chance. We have been giving a chance even when we were coming into this election. We knew what was going to happen. But what we thought was that there might occur minor irregularities here and there. We didn?t think of daylight robbery.?

?On May the 21st you said that you would boycott the parliament unless justice was been done. It sounds to me like there will be a boycott from your party??

Hailu:- ?Most probably.?

?What kind of democratic values do you uphold then? Millions of people vote for you. The Electoral Board, which, there upon, according to the Constitution, will decide that actually you did well but you didn?t win. And then, you turn down all the people who voted for you and so you say ?We are not going to represent you at the Parliament; we?re going to boycott?.

Hailu:- ?Most of the people in the countryside have been robbed of their voice. Nobody listens to them. Everybody tells them to shut-up. So, somebody who hadn?t been elected into parliament and into government...; that is the democracy that you would have??

?Prime Minster Meles told this programme that he has great sympathy for the idea of having a new election. What do you think?

Hailu:- ?Great, perfect! I will accept it anytime!?

?You would accept??

Hailu:- ?Yes!?

?How quickly you imagine that election could be??



Hailu:- ?Well, we should agree, you know; the way? it should be done between all parties. It is not an order from one man. It should be agreed and timetabled; how to do it, correcting of all the mistakes that have been made before. All this has to be done together! Somebody from up there, telling us what to do when it is done, wouldn?t be fair.

?Let me read you a statement that was issued on the 31st of May and I am quoting. It was a call for numerous and successive protest demonstra- tions: ??stopping of school, transport, a nationwide general strike. The decision? it said ?of whether or not we want to continue the part of the illegal government rests in our hand!? Do you know who wrote that??

Hailu:- ?I don?t know!?

?That was your own party - the C.U.D, the main opposition party.?

Hailu:- ?No! No! C.U.D didn?t write that.?

?Well, I have seen the document.

Hailu:- ?Well, how does it look? Does it have our emblem, and our signature??

?Absolutely.?

Hailu:- ?No, we didn?t issue that. Sorry.??

?I have seen the document, the insignia,?

Hailu:-? No! But??

?Are you saying you never made a call for protest, demonstrations?

Hailu:- ?No! We said we have called, but not this time; for a strike or anything. We never?. After the election we didn?t call for any single demonstration. None whatsoever! What the government calls demonstration is not ours. They made it and they killed it!?

So, you are denying that the document I have seen is not genuine??



Hailu:- ?It?s not genuine. It did not come out of our office. You can check it any time?.

?The fact is though; people did take to the streets. Opposition forces went to the streets.?

Hailu:-?? No?. No?. No?. No?! I am sorry to correct you.

On the 8th of June thousands of people- in Addis Ababa- students, even some high school students; all of them were angry of the election.?

?Are you telling me that your party had nothing to do with that?

Hailu:- ?None, whatsoever.?

?So, it seems to be a remarkable coincidence that they all gathered in Addis on that particular day!?

Hailu:- They didn?t gather?.?

?After?. After 3 days they ?.?

Hailu:- ?They didn?t gather.?

?If they had invited you, would you have worked with the committee (screening committee of the Electoral Board)?

Hailu:- ?No, they wouldn?t invite us anyway!

?If it is an independent body, yes! If a government arranged body, forget it! It?s worthless. We have seen it.?

?Bereket Simon, the Information Minister, said: ?After this incident on June the 8th, which left many people dead, if you allow people to defy law and order take matter into their own hands while government sitting by the side and not maintaining true responsibility for law and order - anybody who is capable of taking matters into their own hands will reign over society and will bring the whole of the Ethiopian society into turmoil.?

He is right. The government has a duty to maintain law and order, when the election result remains a source of doubt.?

Hailu:-) ?No! It will remain a source of doubt. But it will not be a reason to kill. If you?.?

?The government says there were organized agitators on the streets attacking the police. They were looting some shops. The government has the duty to impose order.



Hailu:- ?It?s a blatant lie. I would like to see one shop that was looted, one bank which has been broken. No place, no where.?

?Were you there??

Hailu:- ?I was.?

?Were you there???

Hailu:- I have been driven around by my driver?

?O.K. Well, what I heard was a little different. That you were under a house arrest a short while earlier, weren?t you??Hailu:- ?Yeah!?



?But you were not; you are talking to us. You were rather free??

Hailu:- ?Yes.?

?You seem to be...?

Hailu:- You think they take my freedom and give me back? This is not an improvement, is it??

?My point is that you are portraying a government that is intent on imposing, some sort of, fogish police state of Ethiopia.?

Hailu:- ?Exactly!..Exactly!?

?And, here you are, leader of the opposition, talking to the B.B.C, free to do whatever you want and travel around. You had been - indeed - having a dialogue with the government. You had been- indeed talking to government officials since your house arrest??

Hailu:- ?Haven?t talked to anyone; to any government official.?

?Well, your party issued a joint statement, stressing the need for accepting the peaceful process; the need for avoiding violence on the streets.

Hailu:- Yes! And we even said it before the government said it. So, where is the big deal about it??

?Well, this is my point. There is a contradiction in your position right now. On the one hand you are saying this government is beyond the poll and you are involved in the process through the National Electoral Board. You also issued a Joint Statement of Commitment for peacefully resolving the problem. You can?t have it both ways. Either this country is facing revolution and...?

Hailu:- ?No! No! We are not facing revolution; we say it?s a peaceful demonstration. Not a revolution, O.K? Anywhere...don?t people demonstrate when they are disappointed in where you came? Don?t they demonstrate in any country? They even demonstrate in Ouagadougou. So, why can?t we here demonstrate in Addis? But we never called for that demonstration. But I am not saying we will never call a demonstration. When we call a demonstration it is going to be a peaceful one. But, the government created this whole incident.?

?Well, would you bring your people out in to the streets, if - as you suspect - the Electoral Board upholds the government?s victory and you regard the process is illegitimate??

Hailu:- ?If I consider it illegitimate??

?Yeah.?

Hailu:- ?Yes! I will.?

?What do you think? What will happen then??

Hailu:- ?It?s up to the government to behave as they claim to be a democrat.?

?Even after what happened on June the 8th what do you think will happen when you bring your people - tens and tens and tens of thousands of them onto the streets at the end of this??

Hailu:- ?You know what? If the government wants to do it, then it?s done! They don?t permit it; free expression of opinion.

?Then to dislodge - what do you call them; regimes like this? We have died before? We?re dying right now; today, yesterday, the day before. If you go all over Ethiopia, you will find people being apprehended, killed, taken to jail or kicked-off their land; becoming destitute and become beggars in Addis. What kind of a system are we goanna live with, if it?s gone continue like this??

?Your policies and your decision over the next few weeks may lead to a terrible bloodshed in this country.?

Hailu:- ?No! It would not. It will not. It has never done. We had the biggest demonstration in Addis before the elections. Nothing happens, if the government behaves itself.?

?Let?s look at the international reaction to what is happening here. Britain announced the suspension of 20 million pounds. Do you support that? Do you want the G8 countries to suspend their debt relief for Ethiopia??

Hailu:- ?I don?t agree on unmonitored fund; giving of funds to any governments.?

?You don?t support the debt relief??

Hailu:- ?My support is giving fund directly to the people; directly to a specific project, directly where money is needed. You know? You call it `Budgetary Support?; that is giving some money in to the kit. What happens to that money? There is no way of determining where it goes!

?Well, let?s be clear about that.?

Hailu:- ?Why do you give that money??

?Let us be clear about that. Are you telling the International Community, which is giving billions of dollars of aid to Ethiopia that they should now reconsider all of that aid; given what is happening in your country??

Hailu:- ?Reconsider the process of giving aid.??

?Why do you think Prime Minister Meles is one of the favorite African leaders of the Donor Countries? They regard him as a beacon of progress and good governance! Tony Blair appointed him in the African commission. Why??

Hailu:- ?Tony Blair has his own yardstick for measuring.

Acceptability, I guess. Because?.?

?Are you just saying that they have been duped by Prime Minister Meles??

Hailu:- ?Of course!?

?Are you so naﶥ??

Hailu:- ?Possibly. They don?t know our culture, our behavior; how an Ethiopian behaves under different circumstances. There are many two faced people in this world. They don?t know this country in-depth; that is what I believe. And I don?t blame them.?

?Could it be that you, with your own political ambition, are using the current situation against the people of Ethiopia. You now are advising that aid should be reconsidered. Can you, yourself a man who served for two years under the so-called `Red Terror Regime of Colonel Mengistu??

Hailu:- ?Yeah.?

?This is more about your political ambition rather than for the good of the Ethiopian people.?

Hailu:- ?I was the only person who stood up at that time and told the `Dergue:?You are wrong! I?m quitting.?



?How many years did you spend serving Colonel Mengistu??

Hailu:- ?Two years, two years or 1? years.?

?Two years??



Hailu:- ?Yes.?

?It took you two years to understand that you were going in the wrong direction??

Hailu:- Yes, it took me two years! We were trying? we were trying to get these people to take the right direction; even to take the try. We gave it a try??

?Two long years??

Hailu:- ?But I don?t have access like everybody else. I don?t have access in itself. I?m just a technician. OK? I?m an expert in management??

?You were a top official.?

Hailu:- ?I have children. To protect your children there are certain things you do, but then, when you reach a certain boundary, you say ?sorry I don?t agree with you, you are wrong!? If you are talking of my ambition, you didn?t do any homework on who I am??

?I tell you what I talk about. I talk about you as a politician. I talk about your track record. I talk about what happened to Ethiopia under Colonel Mengistu. And I talk about where Ethiopia is today. It is making progress; for example it is educating its children, making progress economically. We have seen an 11 percent growth rate recently. It is slowly? slowly emerging from a terrible poverty under a leader that Western experts believe doing a decent job. And you are now trying to drag that process down.

Hailu:- ?That process is already down. I don?t have to drag it down. Its record shows those 11 percent ? I know those figures. I have been in the business of consultancy. These figures, you can screw them in any way you like.?

?So what would you do if you may? If the electoral board were to over turn the preliminary result and be the leader of Ethiopia in a few short weeks. What would your priority be???

Hailu:- ?My priorities are obvious. It is shown in our manifesto. What we?re going to do:-

Free up the financial system,
Create a conducive environment to create jobs for the young; create special training for that the young can get employed.
At the moment we are concentrating only on state sponsored companies instead of attracting private investment locally and from after and abroad.

We C.U.D. are on a private investment root. And I am sure I have links everywhere. If the atmosphere changed there will be a flood of investors coming here. That is the only way you create jobs and the only way you educate people.?

?And what would you do with the land??

Hailu:- ? Privatize it obviously.?

?How? It?s not quite obvious.?

Hailu:- ? Because the farmer has to own something. He is not going to be pushed around by some cadres; if you don?t agree with them they kick him out of his land. How can you talk about democracy when, even, a farmer doesn?t own his own cloth and say no to anybody??

?Almost all international observers agree that 85 percent of Ethiopian are Desperately poor peasants living at the edge of starvation. There are million and million of people who would die, was it not for international food aid. How are these people gone own Land?

Hailu:- You will have to give them allocated land. You know how it?s done? Every community has elders. The elders decide how to allocate the land.

If this is communally owned for private ownership. And other for grazing, and so on? They decide. But the government?s role will be to get that certificate.

The Information Minister, Bereket Simon says: ?If the opposition continues with its inflammatory rhetoric, Ethiopia could slide towards the kind of instability and then violence that Africa last saw in Rwanda!?

Hailu:- ? That is his negative thinking. It will never ? never happen in Ethiopia! Never! Because that is not how the country has come about. People live here side by side. It is a mixed neighborhood. We talk to each other. The ladies have coffee together. We are intermarried. Inconceivable for this to happen. You should look at the heavily Tigrean areas like the Tekel-Haimanot. That are is 75 percent Tigreans. They voted for non Tigrean-- the CUD.

So where is the problem??

?Are you are optimistic of Ethiopia?s future? Till the last year people wanted to believe that this country is dragging itself from poverty. Now the out look looks much bleaker.?

Hailu:- ?It?s not. Well it is easy to solve. Let the government take its guns away. Then we have a beautiful future; I can tell you.?

Hailu Shawel, thank you very much for being on ?Hard Talk?.

Hailu:- ?Thank You for having me here.?

(The interview was conducted on July 5, 2005.)

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