Greg Maybury

Sep 2, 08 - 1:22 PM

The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

A recent post addressing the call for better performing schools and teachers highlighted a number of non-controllable variables that affect the quality of teaching. These variables are rarely discussed in the on-going and increasingly vocal debate about improving standards of service delivery by both schools and their teachers.

Arguably, the most important variable in a quality education is parental/carer support. Without doubt the interest, ability and preparedness of parents to support the education of their school-agers has waned dramatically in the past 10 years, yet the demands and expectations of same of schools and teachers are increasing.

Although saying so may strike some as self-evident, parents can potentially have a substantial influence upon the ability of teachers to teach effectively, manage their increasingly demanding classrooms, and elicit productive learning, attendance, attitudinal, emotional, social and behavioural responses from their school-agers.

Yet just because something might be “self-evident” does not mean that people respond according to the dictates of that ‘evidence’. It may be “self-evident” for most people that regular exercise is good for us, but that does not mean that “most people” will exercise regularly if at all, even those who might otherwise be health conscious.

It may be contentious to say so, but parents are in many ways responsible for the quality of teachers’ performance. Modern day parenting techniques, parental career and work commitments, effectiveness and attitudes, as well as the changing family structures, and social values and dynamics of the past 10 years are just some of the many external forces that have shaped how students respond to the learning environment, and therefore how schools and teachers perform.

To illustrate, at one top Perth public high school, I made contact with dozens of parents in the space of six months. On only 5-10% of these occasions did I receive a response that actually brought about a positive change in student behaviour or learning effort. I recall one time where after 3 unsuccessful attempts to seek the aid of a parent for a poorly performing student, she asked me not to call her again. While her son was at school he was “your problem”, and while he was at home he was “my problem”. Needless to say, there was little improvement in the student’s behaviour and work effort, and I didn’t call again.

Teaching and learning is a unique service delivery proposition, and in principle at least, applies equally whether in public or private schools. For it to be truly effective, the service delivery provider requires from the receiver, a co-operative, interdependent mindset on a level that does not exist in most other service delivery interactions.

School-agers frequently through immaturity alone are not predisposed to meeting the service provider half-way, or always able to recognise what is in their best interests. The parental support factor muddies the waters even more. Some parents even refuse to acknowledge their school-ager is less than perfect; more and more are resorting to blaming the teachers or the school for not making a more concerted effort to accommodate their behaviourally and motivationally challenged offspring.

A frequent yet legitimate complaint of teachers is that whenever they experience difficulties with a particular student, and seek the support of the parent(s), the response often matches the response of the student in question – which might run to everything from outright indifference and lack of effort to blatant hostility and contempt.

One obvious reason for this might be parents who are both working (more common than not of course these days). They are by definition almost harder to contact because of such commitments. And even when parents do make the time and effort to respond, more often the resolution of issues raised by teachers regarding individual students is fraught with frustration, rigmarole and a lack of progress. At the same time though it is becoming an increasing and non-productive part of any teacher’s daily duties.

Private schools on the other hand, generally have far greater autonomy and authority to insist on students taking more responsibility for their own behaviour and learning. At the same time, they can and do insist that parents strongly support the learning process, and many are held to account for the behaviour of their children. In theory at least, parents of private school students have a far greater incentive to support the education of their school-agers, if only to ensure they are getting value for money.

The simple conclusion to draw is this. More and more parents are expecting schools and teachers to pick up the slack in areas of responsibility formerly the domain of family, with discipline and behaviour management being just one obvious example. Yet many parents have abrogated these responsibilities. A school’s ability to service the needs and requirements of students at all levels, is greatly diminished by their lack of support.

Measuring the teachers’ performance is surely then akin to measuring parental performance. Surely a measure of responsible parenting comes down to supporting their school-agers to achieve to the best of their ability, and behave in a fashion that does not disrupt other students or the teachers’ effort to bring that about. If parents are going to expect more from schools and teachers, they are going to have to find new ways to engage with, and provide greater levels of support to, the schools within their communities. It must work both ways, otherwise it will not work at all.

How we measure that though in a way that is equitable for both parties is going to be very difficult.

Andy of Mandurah

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 2:40 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Maybe they could measure some of the other stuff we do...... like more money for the more forms and paperwork we do!

Michelle Westlake

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 2:57 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

So in cconjunction with the list of schools and how each has performed, which will be available to parents, schools will be provided with a list of parents and how they have performed. Sounds good.

Clifford Chapman

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 6:19 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

A very interesting posting, Greg, because I think you'll find quite a few non-teachers, academics, armchair education experts and sundry others, have apparently discovered that the biggest factor in student achievement is actually the classroom teacher.

They're all clamouring to share their discovery with the rest of us - indeed, Mr. Little Populist Rudd, is, even as we speak, desperate to pay the classroom teacher much more.

Maths teacher

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 12:26 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Good points, Greg. Something that I find very annoying is how politicians go overseas and talk to someone from a different culture, environment and set of circumstances and then seek to impose those methods on our culture...without properly engaging the wealth of quality knowledge and experience in Australia, namely our teachers. Until the politicans forced Overly Bureaucratic Excrement on our schools, WA's literacy and numeracy were around the top 5 internationally. But now Rudd and Gillard want to grab headlines for doing something about education and whipping those militant unionist teachers and lazy so and sos into line...by copying methods that won't work here (where do our students go when Rudd closes their schools?) from a place quite different to ours. Like we live in New York with all the skkyscrapers, ghettos and gangs?

This close control over teachers as exemplified by the increased accountability has to be strongly resisted because the accountabilty imposed over the last decade has forced our efforts away from teaching appropriately to demonstrating that we've been teaching appropriately (usually to those who couldn't do what we do let alone appreciate it). This use of detailed accountability over teachers is also like what is going on in England and its attraction to politicans and the general public lies in its power to dominate and coerce teachers into doing what non-teachers think is a good idea. When a real improvement doesn't result then they'll blame the teacher for not having the wit to do it properly or for deliberately sabotaging it or for being lazy as usual...just like we've had with OBE.

The real tragedy of this farce is that these self-anointed educational experts/megalomaniacs (Rudd, Gillard and Bishop) are ignoring the world's best practice! I refer to Finland of course.

Finland has for many years running been the world's number one in literacy and numeracy outcomes. How do they do it? Well, the whole country respects teachers truly highly and treats them very well (but not at top pay rates). They only accept one in ten applicants for teaching (a bit like trying to be a firey). Then they train them to masters level and ...wait for it ... leave them alone to do what they've been trained to do. They don't have national testing. They don't have testing. They just have intelligent people who were well trained and not over worked doing what they think is best for their students.

Of course our politicans can, with their superior educational insights, tell that this system wouldn't work here because they would have to pay us at least as well as accountants, plumbers, carpenters etc. to attract intelligent and dedicated people in the first place.

yvonne meyer

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 5:57 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Actually, the reason teachers in Finland are well respected is because they teach effectively, ie, teacher-directed instruction and the 3 R's for all ten years of compulsory schooling. Subjects are only taught in non-compulsory years 11 & 12 and then by teachers with a degree in that subject. They don't fluff around with ineffecive child-centred fads and they don't waste time on non-core related content.

As for parents, we can't win. Concerned parents who try to monitor their children's progress are labeled pushy, helicopter parents, and parents who are too dysfunctional to monitor their children's are blamed for being dysfunctional.

While Greg is obviously very frustrated, I can come back with many, many more anecdotes from parents about how they have tried to talk to their child's teacher but are treated with defensive hostility.

If you are going to blame parents for everything, then let's have a discussion about how if a parent asks tough questions, the teachers get offended and take it out on the kid. I've got great anecdotes to illustrate, starting with my son having a merit award taken away from him when I was appointed to the National Inquiry into the Teaching of Literacy.

Boxer

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 6:26 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Absolutely correct MT, and you raise some very salient points about trying to ascertain and reward teacher “effectiveness". As you say, if certain indicators are used to demonstrate teacher competence, then that’s what every teacher will concentrate on and ignore the rest.

If any teachers decide to not to concentrate on a narrow spectrum of the curriculum and decide that the kids actually need a balanced education; these teachers will be punished under the proposed system.

If literacy and numeracy are to be tested and used as a benchmark of teacher competence, expect the humanities, arts, sport and recreation, excursions, carnivals, socials, camps and school concerts to fall off the curriculum.

Remember when the education bureaucracy brains-trust decided that promotion should be based on demonstrated competence rather than experience or seniority? This sounded fair. I mean, why should promotional applicants win a position based on service and experience?

Unfortunately, rather than promoting competent and experienced teachers, we all of a sudden began to promote plausible bullshit artists and cynical self-promoters. The upwardly mobile and savvy opportunists quickly realised that time spent perfecting the art of teaching in the classroom was absolutely useless in a promotion contest.

This meant that our new leaders came from the group of individuals who opted for endless “professional development” sessions or made a bee-line to the sanctuary of the nearest district office. They only ventured away from the safety of district office to lecture the real classroom teaching experts on how to teach.

The present DET leadership cadre is the result of this failed policy of promoting bullshit artists who have little understanding or demonstrated competence in actual classroom teaching; and I suppose Shazza must be the ultimate pin-up girl for this set.

Rudd and Gillard. If you want a flourishing and effective education system follow my advice. Initiate a logical, quality national curriculum, stop funding private schools to the detriment of state schools and institute strict minimum qualification requirements for teachers. Focus federal funding towards areas of national need and force all states to drop all vestiges of the imbecilic OBE.

States can start funding schools properly and attract and retain quality people (masters level) by offering attractive wages and conditions and go through their educational bureaucracies with a flame-thrower (not literally of course) to remove the incompetent, the time-servers and the deadwood.

Anything less is doomed to failure.

Boxer

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 7:00 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

"Actually, the reason teachers in Finland are well respected is because they teach effectively, ie, teacher-directed instruction and the 3 R's for all ten years of compulsory schooling."

This is true Yvonne, however sometimes your posts come across as though teachers wilfully impose ineffective teaching methods or knowingly under-educate and disadvantage children borne of malice or indolence.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, teachers are committed to providing the best possible education for students despite the manifold restrictions and barriers. The real fault lies with a dysfunctional educational system that does not value teachers, promotes unproven and ineffective teaching methods, does not attract the very smart to teaching and insists that disinterested and disruptive students be kept in the classroom to distract the teacher and make effective learning impossible for the rest of the class.

I agree that teachers are a tad defensive when their teaching effectiveness is questioned, but this should not be interpreted as a sign of refusal to be accountable. It is more a sign that teachers are constrained by a junk curriculum, forced to adopt fad teaching methods, are under-resourced, have to manage extremely disruptive students, are regularly pilloried by politicians, the public and the press and are under-valued by their employer. They must never state this to parents and instead try to maintain a professional demeanour.

All of these factors are outside teachers’ control, yet teachers are expected to shoulder the responsibility, be accountable and justify the cumulative effects of dumb leadership decisions and failed policy. This simply isn’t fair.

Peter de L

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 7:05 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Maths Teacher and Boxer,
I hope you are sending copies of these posts to Mr Rudd and Ms Gillard - and WA pollies - because they need to hear such things and I doubt whether they read the PLATO forum.

Gail Reed

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 11:05 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Outside of 2 parent meetings that are required, teachers are expected to conduct interviews with parents in their own time, usually after a school day, in which they are mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted.

If we are serious about improving teacher-parent relationships, teachers must be given time within school hours to conduct interviews when necessary and this should not be undertaken in DOTT.

Christine Kelly

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 11:12 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Personally quite happy with the contact 'incidental 'or otherwise I have at present with parents.It's their lack of engagement with the overall Education system I find disturbing.When they speak about their child they are interested but they are still sucked in by the Emperor's new clothes.I think they treat those in charge of Education like bank directors or doctors - they're in charge so they must know what they are doing and they put their children's fate glibly in their hands.I have always believed OBE would be dead in the water by now if parents had been more informed and pro active.

Greg Maybury

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 1:40 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Dear Yvonne,

I appreciate your point about parents. There's always 2 sides in this discussion.

Might I respectfully suggest though you read my post again. I have not suggested in any way that parents are "responsible for everything" [wrong]. I simply wanted to inject a measure of balance in the discussion over what (or who) really influences our kids in the classroom. The Education Revolution crowd seem to think it's teachers (and only teachers) that are the key determinants of student performance. Maintaining such a one-sided discussion will only alienate the profession more, and make it harder to recruit and retain teachers into the future.

I stand by my statements. They are based on hard earned experience.

Gail Reed

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 3:04 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

My child goes to a DET senior highschool and yes Christine I place my child firmly in the hands of his teachers with the utmost of confidence because I respect their professionalism. We don't whinge,whine or complain we do what is reasonably requested. I am a primary school teacher.
When I go to a parent meeting I ask,"How can I help you."

Robert

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 5:32 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Hi yvonne,

just curious as to how long you have left in your degree to become a full qualified teacher?

cheers,

Robert

Ghost

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 5:46 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Yvonne,

I do not believe for an instance that your son's merit award was taken away from him because you were appointed to the NITL panel.

It is these kinds of misrepresentations and/or outright lies that make it very difficult to believe anything you claim.

yvonne meyer

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 5:59 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Greg/Boxer,

I think we both agree that parent bashing is about as useful as teacher bashing, ie, not at all.

I stand by what I have said on this thread and others that parents are in a no-win situation, that they are 'mushrooms' - kept in the dark and fed manure, and that few parents are prepared to confront educators for fear of their kids having to pay the price.

The way to end Educrat & Ideologue domination of Education is for (sensible) parents and teachers to unite. Having had the experience of encouraging several dozen parents to read PLATO and seeing their reaction to certain teacher's posts, I truely believe this will happen about as quickly as hell freezing over.

Robert,

I suggest you Google my name and then ask me more pertinent questions.

Primary Teacher2

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 6:23 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

I'm with you Yvonne - I'm a parent and a teacher.
I don't agree with your statement that parents can't win though. I think we just haven't worked out how to use the power that we actually do have.

Ghost

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 6:24 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Yvonne,

Here's a pertinent question, that I have come to ask after Googling you.

You claim that your son could not read or write in Year 5. You have previously said on this forum that you had some concerns, but you claim that the teachers didn't share them. You have said that you believe your son hid his learning difficulties by memorizing a bank of sight words, but you claim he could not actually decode or read them. You believe that the teachers failed your son in not recognizing this.

But let's take it back to basics for a moment. You also claim that your son could not write his name in Year 5 (Jake). I find that extraordinary. Do you not feel you have any responsibility for this?

My children could all write their name prior to attending kindergarten let alone school. Most children from middle-class families with educated parents can. Most children who are given textas, pencils, crayons, paint etc to play with; have writing modeled for them; are read to and encouraged to engage with environmental print as well as books; etc.; can write their name prior to Year 1. It may be shaky, it may be misspelt, it may be back to front or upside down or inside out. But it is a valid attempt at their name.

Could your son?

But how could you not notice this until he was in Year 5?

I ask this in complete bewilderment, Yvonne, because I just don't get it. It is not meant to be antagonistic, nor is it meant to say that teachers do not play an essential part in a child's learning. I believe they do. But so do parents, and I am sick of your extraordinary claims on this site against teachers being responsible for all of society's problems. I believe that you have a vested interest in downplaying the role parents play in a child's learning which is inevitably linked to your self-representations.

And for those who think such a question has broken the sacred rules of what is acceptable to ask a parent, Yvonne has put all of this in the public sphere. Google it. Her son is named.

incredible

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 6:30 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Here's the thing, PT2: Most teachers are parents.

Darren Welsh

Sep 3rd, 2008 - 7:25 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

No response Yvonne? We're waiting.

yvonne meyer

Sep 4th, 2008 - 4:41 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Ghost, Darren,

Do you mind if I get some sleep? Please remember there is a time difference between Perth and Melbourne and I actually have a life other than answering the same questions asked by the same people over and over.

If you want to know what happened to my son, read Louisa Moats, "Whole Language Lives On; The Illusion of Balanced Instruction".

An example of how my son's teachers let him down; On the test of phoneme/grapheme correspondances that he took at the Royal Children's Hospital Learning Difficulties Centre, he scored zero. I took this information back to his school and nothing happened. I subsequently found out from a teacher who asked to meet me away from the school where no-one could see us talking that no-one acted on the report because they didn't know what it meant.

If I could find out what it meant and act upon it, so could his teachers.

If you want understand how he couldn't write his name, you will have to come to Melbourne so I can show you. I cannot share the examples I used in my legal action because they are subject to the confidentialty order insisted on by the School but I can assure you they made an impact in court.

Send me uncorrected examples of handwritten work by your primary students and I will tell you which ones can read properly and which ones can't just by looking at their written work.

Even better, test your student population using an objective, norm-referenced test of READING, (not a subjective assessment of how well a student can Look & Guess) and tell me how many of your students are reading at chronological age level.

Finally, while I well understand that teachers critising their employers need to keep their identities secret for fear of reprisal, there can be no reprisal for critising me. In fact, there would be nothing short of kudos from DET for anyone who wants to have a go at me.

I think it only fair that posters, especially those who support the ideology that is the cause of 55% of school leavers having inadequate literacy skills for everyday life, be they paid lobbyists or just enthusiastic supporters of teacher's professional associations like ALEA & PETA, will have to identify themselves, as I identify myself, before I answer them.

Ghost

Sep 4th, 2008 - 9:42 AM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Yvonne,

I actually worry about your sanity after posts like these.

Given that you never actually answer the questions asked of you, but twist things around so that your narrow view of the world is reinforced while misrepresenting the views of others, I'm not actually sure what's in it for me to post under my own name. You certainly won't answer my questions, as your claim you will, as you never have before.

You may choose to ignore posts from me, which is your prerogative, and no doubt my anonymity can give you a convenient excuse, but I will continue to ask questions and you will be on the record of not answering them, and people may read that as they wish. You may also run as many conspiracy theories about my identity as you wish, but you are wrong on every count.

I am a teacher and a parent, and that is my only stake in this.

You were asked why you failed to recognize that your son could not write his name, Jake, until Year 5. I asked you this as the child's mother. I asked you how you could not recognize this as a mother with a middle-class, educated background as I just cannot understand how this is possible. You have failed to answer the question, deliberately avoided it, and blamed it only on teachers.

I believe that the home life I provide my children is the most important factor in their education. Their teachers and how they are taught is secondary to that. I guess you would disagree.

You then make the preposterous claim that you--without any qualifications in education--can ascertain a child's literacy just by looking at his or her handwriting! Handwriting may give some indicators, but it is consistent with your extreme view of the word that literacy skills can be determined purely by an examination of handwriting. How, Yvonne, can handwriting conclusively determine whether a child can read or write properly?

As for this comment: 'especially those who support the ideology that is the cause of 55% of school leavers having inadequate literacy skills for everyday life', you have no knowledge of what ideologies I do or do not support. You claim to have all the answers to solving literacy for all children, Yvonne. How powerful you must feel to be able to make such an assumption. How powerful you must feel to make such an assumption and then use it to attack teachers.

You have a binary view of the world, where everyone who agrees with your extreme views is right, and everyone who disagrees with them is wrong; where teachers who agree with your views are good, and teachers who disagree with your views are bad (and should be punished). Binary oppositions are a key generic convention of fairy tales, Yvonne, and they are not based on the read world or real people. Classrooms are, and teachers engage with the real world and real people everyday.

I do not believe that your statistic of '55% of school leavers have inadequate literacy schools for everyday life' is correct, as has been pointed out by many besides me elsewhere. Where has this statistic come from Yvonne? Oh, that's right, you're not talking to me. Again, at your convenience, no doubt.

Peter de L

Sep 4th, 2008 - 5:07 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Ghost, you have mis-quoted Yvonne. She did not say that she could "ascertain a child's literacy just by looking at his or her handwriting". She said she could "tell you which ones can read properly and which ones can't just by looking at their written work" - not their handwriting.

parent

Sep 4th, 2008 - 5:46 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Ghost, your aggression in hounding Yvonne does you no credit. Sure, ask your questions, but please accept that we are all busy people and instant response is unlikely. There is also little incentive for her as there is no likelihood that she will satisfy you, as you seem hellbent on proving something.

Ghost

Sep 4th, 2008 - 6:00 PM

Re: The Call for a Better Teacher – Part Two - Parents Invited to the Revolution

Peter,

You are right. My mistake.

parent,

Yvonne has a long history of being critical of teachers on this site that do not agree with her educational philosophy. I choose to defend them. The fact that history is long leads to what you perceive as aggression. Go back two years and you will find others having the exact same argument with her.

For the record, I was not critical of any delay on her part in getting back to me. I understand that people lead busy lives and that instant reply is not likely: nothing I have said suggests otherwise.