marko vojkovic

Aug 31, 08 - 6:32 PM

Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I have been informed that Year 12 subjects with less than 12 enrolled students will be cancelled next year. Can more teachers confirm this please?

Given that big state high schools are already overflowing, where will these TEE students go? Many will simply quit doing TEE properly (imagine the possibilities) or go to the private school down the road.

Clifford Chapman

Aug 31st, 2008 - 6:36 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

That's the Labour Party for you, Marko, defender of working people and public education.

And some people think they're not as bad as the Liberals.

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 6:48 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Marko - they'll go online.
FLIS run through SIDE.

Smithers

marko vojkovic

Aug 31st, 2008 - 6:56 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

How do Year 12 Science students do labs online?

I have recently investigated online learning. For basic instruction, it achieves satisfactory results. For higher order concepts (like TEE) the results are definitely inferior.

So 11 students' chances at tertiary studies is compromised because of the bean counters in Silver City trying to solve the teacher shortage. The irony is, those same 11 students HAD a specialist teacher but DET cancelled the subject!

Concerned teacher

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:05 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

At my school the cut off is a minimum of 16 students. Quite a few combined classes of year 11 and 12. The plans for where current year 11 students will study a subject that has been dropped off the gridline in Year 12 will be interesting. It will also be interesting to see how the parents react. Also it will be interesting to see how classroom teachers are used for other jobs eg relief coordinator, network coordinator etc. This information should be known to the general public. Interesting times ahead!

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:10 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Marko - SIDE has a small science lab. The kids do the practical work there. They even borrow lab gear from Perth Modern.

BTW - we also got told 15 or less won't run.

Smithers

SEC PE

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:26 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

What happens if the numbers fall below the minimum during the year eg half way through term one??

SEC PE

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:29 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Looks like they will need to find a bigger building for SIDE.

Amused

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:42 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Perhaps SIDE should be relocated to Geraldton!

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:43 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I bet that is coming...and/or they will further decentralise aspects of SIDE's operations.

Of course, the issue of collapsed classes is also being handled by amalgamations between schools and kids being bussed between them.

Smithers

BM

Aug 31st, 2008 - 7:45 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

At my school Outdoor Education is booming next year and we are known for our academic results. We will lose skilled teachers from some learning areas.

This will cause a downward spiral as the lack of teachers in a learning area makes it difficult to repeat subjects on different lines as there are not teachers available to take those subjects, reducing students choices.

memorable screen-name!

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:03 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Learning via SIDE is awful, imo.

This might have a lot to do with the fact that the subject itself which I am doing is entirely useless, but learning online is really a substandard substitute for actual classroom education. Also, the SIDE website has had a lot of downtime in the past, and the SIDE web administrators seem to be relatively incompetent. Highly annoying when you have an assessment due and can't access the course material.

I spent all lesson on Friday casually catching up on PLATO threads and reading wecomics because the teacher hadn't uploaded the next bit of the course yet.

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:07 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

At the end of this year and early next year I'm going to lose two quality physical science teachers.

What do you reckon my chances are of replacing them with quality teachers?

What do you reckon my chances are of replacing them at all?

...yeah, I'm outa here as soon as possible.

Smithers

Secondary Teacher

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:08 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

This is how DET and the Labor Govt solve the teacher shortage. Principals solving the teacher shortage at the local level.

Patrick F. Whalen

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:14 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I have seen Intro Calc and other upper school Maths students trying to do their subject by SIDE or FLIS. They could not grasp graphic calculator via FLIS, imagine trying to master CAS calculator by FLIS or SIDE!

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:19 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

The process is simple. The trick is to get it started.

If you lose physics teachers, you lose physics students. If you lose physics students, you quickly lose the entire academic cohort - chem, lit, calculus, music etc.

No matter, Rudd reckons parents should vote with their feet - no mention that, in terms of resourcing, the playing field is freshly mowed and carefully manicured turf on one side and a quag mire of deglected shite on the other.

No, we won't go there will we Kevin...you stupid %%^&#.

Smithers

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:24 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Now come on, don't be too harsh on SIDE...staff I've spoken to reckon FLIS is a quality product.

Staff there are breaking new ground and they know all there is to know about online learning. Their hearts and souls are well and truly into it.

Smithers

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:37 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Smithers, I would be proud to have you teach my kids.

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:43 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Thanks Fiona

If your kids go to school in Queensland then it might just be possible!

Smithers

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:54 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

On another note, if robot Rudd reckons parents should vote with their feet regarding good and bad schools, so too should teachers.

Crap school because of a lack of system support...no I'm not going there DET, find me a good one.

Crap school because of a lack of system support, simple - use the Rudd solution and simply walk off.

Then turn up on masse to St Marys, Scotch, Hale, PLC and demand that they employ you.

That's the way isn't it Kevin...you insipid piece of #$!@.

Smithers

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:58 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Smithers, you are the personal face of the situation in WA. That you are considering packing averything up and going east makes a mockery of all the carpenter government's efforts to recruit even mediocre teachers from overseas. That it haas neglected to put in place policies that keep its good teachers is reason enough to vote it out. If he really can't see the wood for the trees, he has no business being a carpenter.

Chris Curtis

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:59 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

No sensible school sets an arbitrary cut-off for not running particular subjects. The factors are a lot more complicated than that.
Chris Curtis
(Timetabler, Waterdale High School, 1976-80,
Timetabler, Whittlesea College, 1990-94,
Timetabler, Hampton Park Secondary College, 2000-04)

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 8:59 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Should have previewed .. ssh.

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:03 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I could not agree more, Chris. Schools must have leeway. Swings and merry-go-rounds. There seems to be a dangerous trend of government interference that will detract even further from sensible decision making at the school level.

Secondary Teacher

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:04 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I think the scene in the years to come will be like this - we will have academic schools such as Rossmoyne, Churchlands etc, plus Perth Modern School which will be the school the Govt overloads with resources, in an attempt to have a Govt school compete favourably with the Independent Schools and the rest will be second grade. The days of the local school may soon be disappearing. All kids have the right to all subjects at the local school - they shouldn't have to be bused elsewhere, or study at SIDE or have less choice on the gridlines. The curent Govt and DET have a lot to answer for. It has been known for many years, that we would experience a shortage of teachers. Some very weak attempts have been made recently to address this shortage of teachers - recruiting overseas and interstate teachers, redeploying Central and Distict Office staff back into the classrooms, and now telling schools that all classroom teachers, are to be used as classroom teachers - no SWL coordinators, no teacher librarian, no computer teacher being used for network or technician coordinators etc. The Govt could have prevented this situation from developing, by paying teachers far more and improving the resources and maintenance of schools plus if they had removed all aspects of OBE years ago, we wouldn't have seen so many resignations and early retirements.

Shame on this Labor Govt and DET.

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:12 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

And the EBA has the nerve to have a section "Career Pathways"! ???

Smithers

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:17 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Shame alright ST and the disease is beginning to spread across the nation.

Journalists don't mind though. Even now Paul Kelly from the Weekend Australian is teacher bashing and supporting federal labor's ill-conceived, nasty education revolution. The Worst's editor is doing the same.

Rub a bit more salt into the wound, sell a few more papers and make the enitre situation worse. Just ensure that your own kids go private...but oh! Even they're starting to have trouble recruiting quality staff, didn't see that coming did you? Dumb arsed, half informed, overly opinionated journalists.

Smithers

Chris Curtis

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:24 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Fiona,

As a former timetabler, I despair at the nonsense that is spoken about timetabling. As a former teacher, I despair at the nonsense that is spoken about education. In short, I despair.

HPSC:
92.3 teachers for 1187 students in 2004
maximum timetabled teaching load: 21 48-minute periods a week (16 hours and 48 Minutes)
average regular class load: 15 hours 45 minutes
maximum class size: 25 students
average class size: 21.3 students
c100 VCE units, some with fewer than 12 students.

For those interested in the how, curriculum structure details are at:
http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/3280197123/show/591560
and timetabling policies are at:
http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/3280197123/show/682089

Fiona

Aug 31st, 2008 - 9:35 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Well, Chris, at least, through plato, teachers have a voice and I believe that, if anything, plato stands for passion. It is teachers passionate about their subject and about education who have found this site to be a vent for the frustrations brought about over the last decade. The last thing I would want is for WA teaching to be populated by people who were teaching for easy grad money, teaching because they couldn't get into anything else and/or teaching because they are marking time until something better comes along. Whoever gets into government, I hope they have the vision to see long term and begin to appreciate what they may have already lost.

Gwen

Aug 31st, 2008 - 10:08 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

What happens with SIDE students is that they look to their Year 11 subject teachers for support. Being the conscientious souls that we all are we end up deciphering the course materials for them, translating the questions into simple English for them, and running around getting support material for them. Otherwise the kids are left high and dry trying to navigate through a course of study that is designed for students who know exactly what they should know at the end of the course - not at the beginning.

SIDE students need a lot of support on site, not at a distance - and the teachers on site simply end up with more students and more work. I have seen so many students give up simply because of the sense of isolation they experience. The system will collapse if we end up with more SIDE students - where are the resources going to come from? Who will be responsible for their welfare on site? It used to be said that Australia is a clever country. Well now we can look forward to it being a dumb country as a result of top down decision making by people who should know better but don't seem to give a stuff about future generations.

marko vojkovic

Sep 1st, 2008 - 6:00 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

There is a solution but it requires Deputies to thumb their noses at DET. I call it the Gary Cooper solution.

I'm pretty sure there's a film where GC is defending a fort severely outnumbered by the enemy. He props up the dead soldiers on the walls and runs along firing each one's gun. Thinking themselves outnumbered, the enemy retreats.

Deputies could enrol students in TEE subjects on the fringe who change subjects soon into Year 12. They could enrol RHINOS (rarely here in name only students) in these subjects should they return to school. They could use students who have transferred but haven't put in the paperwork and are still technically enrolled.

A glimpse of the future:

1. An ageing workforce.
2. An EBA agreeed to by the SSTUWA has no incentive for these teachers to stay.
3. Private school teachers also retire.
4. Hundreds of ads in the West for private school jobs.
5. Teachers and graduates migrate to the private system.
6. State schools in certain areas become non-TEE schools as subjects are withdrawn.
7. Half year cohort hits in 2010.
8. These same schools have virtually no enrolments as parents learn no TEE subjects are offered.
9. The teacher shortage is covered up by deliberately reducing the choices of state school students.
10. By 2012 we have an education system completely divided along socio economic lines. Those who are prepared to pay fees will make the sacrifice. Those who can afford to live in affluent areas with a viable State TEE school find themselves paying more and more for their children to attend. The kids from poor suburbs are collected into holding areas called schools where the chance of breaking the poverty cycle is virtually zero.

Fred

Sep 1st, 2008 - 6:48 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

11. The DG will receive another massive pay rise.
12. SAT will continue to make annual salary determinations of at least 4 to 5% for Ministers and Members of Parliament.
13. SSTUWA membership will fall to 8 or 9000 members by 2010
14. There will still be class sizes of 32 students in Years 9 and 10.
15. If physics and chemistry is still running, I will be made totally responsible for any negative differentials as my school's results will be still be compared to achools with similar SEIs, such as Willeton's, Rossmoyne's and Perth Mod's.
16.DGs and DDs will still be puppets for the Minister, and principals will continue to be bullied and shafted into submission.
17. "School Matters" will be thicker, glossier and say even less.
18. Labor will lose the next federal election.
19. If still alive, I will be accused of being a subversive recalcitrant.
20. If still alive, I will have built that pizza oven and the chook shed.

Christine Kelly

Sep 1st, 2008 - 7:26 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Apoparently schools over Lockeridge way are pooling resources - bussing kids around etcetera.

Secondary Teacher

Sep 1st, 2008 - 8:52 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

The front page article on this story in today's West, states that we are following a similar scheme that operates in NSW. I think the town of Orange (well and truly country) and area was mentioned. Perhaps in extreme circumstances some of these strategies may have to be used, but to see it happening to suburban schools, virtually all schools in WA, is further evidence that the current Govt should be held accountable for this disaster.

Gail Reed

Sep 1st, 2008 - 1:33 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

I heard Carpenter saying on the radio this morning, that if a school could not provide the specialist teacher required then kiddies get bussed. I guess it will work the other way around.
What grand vision of what makes "the good education system" they have.

Fred

Sep 1st, 2008 - 7:01 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

This is part of the grand plan.

If the government truly wanted to slow the reduced quality of public education it wouldn't bus students. It would direct teachers in other specialist areas to do what Lote teachers and Music teachers have had to do for years. But no, if the kids weren't inconvenienced it would slow the exodus to private schools, wouldn't it?! And we can't have that!

The happy grump and his stooges must be swept away.
Sneakers and his bean brains need a permanent holiday soon.

Smithers

Sep 1st, 2008 - 7:49 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Marko...I remember that movie! His strategy worked from memory.

From what I can tell, if you run 16 enrolments by the time the DET census is conducted in early term one, you should be right.

If this is the case then get those kiddies in and if they find it too hard just make sure they don't change classes before about week six, term one.

Smithers

Stupid Pom

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 9:34 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

This is madness.

I have a year 11 child and we had to move towns to get him his Physics TEE.
He loves Physics and Maths, but couldnt do the subject and got offered SIDE for his science subjects.

We got lucky and got a move to another town, but have put him in a Catholic School to ensure he get his subjects.

Im not austalian and find it crazy that they gov go on about not enought Science graduates but cancel the class! Barmy.

I have to admit we have also told our son not to go into teaching. A sad fact, but with Physics,Chem and Maths TEE he could get a job thats better pay and conditions.

SP

Stupid Pom

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 9:37 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

ps,
his friend seam to be going into engineering,mining,medical etc. So I dont think the gov will have much chance recruiting Science students as teachers.

Christine Kelly

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 11:02 AM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

Sorry S.P but have to admit even with wholly schooled assessed subjects he could get a better paid job than teaching.

Am having an interesting war of words with my 21 year old son.He is happy to vote Labor despite his mother's rantings because Labor have looked after him as an apprentice.He gets scholarships and assistance every step of the way.He feels lucky.Soon MAYBE TO HEAD OFF TO Dubai - he is regularly rewarded,recognised and remunerated for his efforts - can't say the same!

Bug

Sep 2nd, 2008 - 6:54 PM

Re: Under 12 students: subject doesn't run

My school administration group was informed by our principal early in term 2 that the "lucky number" for class sizes, as deamed by Sharon O'Neil, is 7. Classes under 7 get cut.

On the topic of SIDE, our current year 12 students have commented how great it is to be running on the side program in a particular subject(forced as of term 3 due to NO teacher)as the work is sooooo much easier than it was when they had a "real" teacher. Not really something I was pleased to hear about what should be an academic course.