Sol Hanna

Aug 29, 08 - 5:50 PM

treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi all,

At the suggestion of several of my colleagues who are regular visitors to this site I've been reading through the threads here. As a state high school teacher and member of the SSTUWA, much of what I'm reading here are quite familiar as I discuss such matters with my colleagues frequently. Many (all?) of us are angry at the way teachers have been treated and disappointed at the dismal direction that education is taking in this state.

But it's one thing to complain about the problems, and another to take decisive action. PLATO (and now the SSTU's Member's First ticket) have already had a large measure of success. But when it comes to government, they are still hitting their heads against the brick wall of having two major conservative parties that don't care, don't listen and don't understand. They see teachers as being a nuisance and education as a cost.

Four weeks ago I decided not to sit idly by complaining about the situation but to put myself forward as a Greens candidate at the upcoming 2008 election. I found the Greens very receptive to what I had to say and I've been pushing for recognition of the SSTU's claim (and stay tuned for an announcement on the Greens policy on teachers' pay in the days ahead).

In a sense it isn't so surprising that the Greens are so receptive to the complaints of teachers because so many members are teachers. Several Greens candidates are also teachers:
Sol Hanna - Riverton
James Mumme - Rockingham
Christine Cunningham - Cannington
Rob Delves - Willagee
Caz Bowman - Midland
(and the candidate for Geraldton is an ex-teacher)

That's 10% of the lower house candidates! So don't go thinking that the Greens are some kind of abstracted political machine - we're regular citizens working right alongside you and aiming to recommit our society to stronger public education, health and community service institutions.

Going around talking to people in my (very marginal) electorate I keep hearing people (including many teachers) who were formally "rusted on Labor voters" saying that they're going to change their vote this time. However, I'm still hearing the old excuse from some that a vote for the Greens is a "wasted vote" because we won't win government. Make no doubt about it, we won't win government if people maintain that hopeless attitude.

And in this preferential voting system, if your number 1 candidates doesn't win, they get a second vote as their preferences get distributed. At the very least you can send a message by putting your Greens candidate ahead of your major party preference.

As a member of the Greens I don't see our job as "keeping the bastards honest" but to replace the bastards when the fail to perform.

So the time for complaining is over, and the time for action is now. If you do (vote for) what you always did, you'll get what you always got. If you're fed up with the spin and rhetoric and want to see real change, treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN on 6 September.

And you can go a step further by helping our candidates during the next week or on election day. If you really are fed up with Mark McGowan, don't just complain, volunteer to help James Mumme THIS WEEK to help him maximise his vote in the seat of Rockingham and hopefully unseat McGowan. (And if you're tired of the stink of Brian Burke in WA politics lend a hand to me in unseating Tony MacRae in Riverton.)

Complaining won't change anything, your action will. Please get involved, and vote Green next weekend.

cheers; sol

Primary_Teachr

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:27 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi Sol, I noticed Christine was a teacher but my issue is that a vote for the Greens ends up as a vote for Labor through preferences. I want any one else but Labor to govern this state. They've had their chance. Can you clear this up for me?

Polly Watcher

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:36 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol,

Welcome to the PLATO forum. While I have not met you I have heard many very positive comments about you as a teacher and a contributor to society.

If the "Greens" become the "Keep the Bastards honest" party in parliament, I will vote for the Greens; so long as the Greens DO NOT allocate preferences to the current ALP candidates.

This election is not about voting the Libs/Nats in, it is about voting the current government OUT and giving a SHOCK to the major parties to remind them of their obligations to the people of WA!

Jim says it is long overdue to get rid of the 'Truth in sentencing laws and reduce hospital waiting lists. Allanah says it is long overdue for more trains to be made available for people to use in the early hours of the morning and for fewer trucks to use Leach Highway. Alan says it is long overdue for 'carers' to receive more support. Eric does NOT say it is long overdue for tax cuts and for the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars blow-out for the OSS to stop. Fran says it is long overdue for him to have another holiday.

Mark McGowan says it is long overdue for something if only Alan will let him say it!

Sol, any government, having so many ministers saying it is long overdue clearly identifies itself as a government that has NOT DONE WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE!

All the best for your election prospects.

Gail Reed

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:37 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

As far as I'm concerned the Greens are anti -progress, anti-science and anti-working class. I would rather the Liberal party than the Greens. I hate the Greens with a vengeance. They are a backward no policy party.

Graeme

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:49 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Gail
They have good tofu.

Gail Reed

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:50 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

To put it more sharply, I'd rather swallow a mouthful of razor blades than give my vote to a Greenie.

SET

Aug 29th, 2008 - 6:57 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Your choice, Gail. You are wrong on every count.

A vote for the Greens is a vote for public schools, for teachers and for the good of education.

You can vote the Liberal blue conservatives, the Labor pink conservatives or the Greens.

Ghost

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:02 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

"anti -progress, anti-science and anti-working class."

Anti-progress? See, I think they are one of the most progressive parties going around, though I guess I am more interested in progress in terms of democratic ideas rather than progress in the sense of developing uranium mines and pulp mills, and promoting economic growth at the expense of humanity.

Anti-science? See, I think all the science is actually on the side of the fact that industry needs to be regulated to help protect our planet, but I guess that's just because I don't think global warming is a conspiracy theory. I also think all the science is on the side of stem-cell research being able to provide us with significant medical breakthroughs; which is also the Green's position. It certainly isn't the Liberal's position.

Anti-working class? See, the Greens are actually more labour orientated than Labor now days, and are very committed to the principles of unionism. But sure, vote for the Liberal party because they have a proven track record when it comes to industrial relations of being on the side of the working-class, don't they?

Gail, you've put forward one of the more amusing critiques of the Greens that I've come across.

Michael Findlay

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:06 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sounds like a reasonable idea Gail. A spoonful of sugar might help the medicine go down.

Ghost

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:17 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol,

Many thanks for your post. Good luck on September 6.

Amused

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:17 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

The 1970s ALP slogan was: "It's Time".

Is the 2008 WA ALP government slogan: "It's long overdue"?

Recent comments in the media have often included the statement: "It's long overdue", when quoting the various ministers.

Why is it 'long overdue', when it should have already been done!

Fred

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:26 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Oh SET, there you go again. Your post seems SO misleading. There is at least one other alternative to the choices you portray.

Secondary Teacher

Aug 29th, 2008 - 7:59 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol - On the How to Vote Cards for the Greens, what is the order of preferences, which party do you place as your second preference, third preference, etc also your last ranking? I, along with the majority of teachers would rejoice, if Mark McGowan loses his seat.

Colon Bahnet

Aug 29th, 2008 - 8:16 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

How can you vote for a party whose very name is a falsehood? The Greens should, in truth, be called The Reds.

How about a little truth?

Oh, yeah. This is politics.

Sol Hanna

Aug 29th, 2008 - 8:56 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi again,

Polly Watcher and Secondary Teacher asked some good questions about preferences. The Greens are not preferences either of the established conservative parties above the other across the board. It varies from seat to seat, and for various reasons - often dependent on a particular candidates views, or local issues.

But let me say this: YOU CHOOSE WHERE TO PUT YOUR PREFERENCES! The how-to-vote card is only a suggestion - not a decree. Only 75% of Greens voters follow the Greens how-to-vote cards (a much lower proportion than the tory parties).

So I advocating a Green #1 vote next saturday because we've got the strongest policy on support for public education (see http://wa.greens.org.au/policy/education ) and because we'll be offering the best deal to teachers. As for where your preferences go, well, I'm going to assume you're all smart enough to decide for yourselves (even without a HTV).

Sol Hanna

Aug 29th, 2008 - 8:58 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Oh, and thanks to all of you who've offered your support and well wishes for the election. It's greatly appreciated!

SET

Aug 29th, 2008 - 9:04 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Of course, if the Greens get enough first votes to come first or second in any electorate, their preferences won't be distributed. Instead they will receive preferences and may even win seats. So, if you want to see a difference instead of more of the same from Lib/Lab or Lab/Lib then Green is where you should go.

George

Aug 29th, 2008 - 9:05 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

I'm sorry but the last alternative party I would vote for is the greens. They hide under the guise of the environmental champions but we all know what they stand for. Better to call them the 'anything goes' party.

Joy

Aug 29th, 2008 - 11:06 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hanna

Thanks for you post above.

Your website says many great things about your support for a good education for all. There is one important issue though, about which your party is completely silent: OBE.

I suggest the Greens come out firmly against OBE.

If the Greens were smart, they would realise that it is desperate for the Earth that we have universally highly educated kids who can grow up to be innovative and resourceful in devising and developing new technologies, to solve such problems as global warming, loss of diversity of species, and growing pollution, to name just a few of the problems needing solutions.

I get the feeling the Greens might be willing to entertain such fads as OBE. Please tell me I am wrong, and that your part is totally opposed to OBE, and the damage it has done. If the Greens are opposed to OBE, please shout it from the rooftops. I am sure plenty of people would be glad to vote for a party which would gladly get rid of OBE, which has wasted millions of dollars in WA, but most sadly of all, wrecked the education of many, many children, and thus left them with a life much less full than they would otherwise have enjoyed.

Would you post contact phone numbers / and / or E-mail addresses for the candidates mentioned above please?

Thanks again for filling us in about the Greens.

Gail Reed

Aug 30th, 2008 - 5:16 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Dear Ethan,

Please help! Every time I visit the toilet for a ‘sitting down procedure’ - which is, hmmm, at least once or twice a day - I become consumed by guilt. You see, I have NO CHOICE but to use soft, chemicalised, sometimes fragranced paper to clean myself, which must be contributing terribly to the destruction of forestkind. What can I do, Ethan? If it’s not too personal a question, how do you clean your anus after you empty your bowels?

Eddie Mayfield-Shawnbeck
Carlisle

Dear Eddie,

No choice? NO CHOICE?! Saying you have no choice but to use toilet paper is like saying you have no choice but to pick up that little kitten that wanders past your front door, inject petroleum into its eyes and mouth, screw it up into a little screeching furball, and hurl it into the middle of a motorway while screaming ‘Global warming is a myth!’

There is ALWAYS a choice, my so-called friend, and just as a small eco-aware minority of us would choose to invite said kitten into our home to give it a saucer of soya-based milk and a plate of tofu-based pseudo-meat products - instead of following the council estate entertainment route of sticking fireworks into its anus and watching it yelp - so we must also choose NOT to use toilet paper.

Eddie, I haven’t used toilet paper for 17 years. I don’t even have a toilet. In chez Greenhart we have a thermophilic compost machine, with a comfortable seat made from renewable wood taken from a tree that was chopped down using an anaesthesia-drenched saw made from recycled tin, and this thermophilic device turns our waste into ‘humanure’. This is a glorious, rich, stinky product with which we fertilise our crops and keep at bay our sometimes baying neighbours from the Steve Biko Estate next door.

And what do we have alongside our thermophilic compost machine with which to clean ourselves? A selection of leaves (only post-green leaves that have fallen naturally from trees, usually during ‘autumn’) and a ‘family cloth’ - a quite long rag made from organic cotton which has the names ‘Ethan’, ‘Sheba’, ‘Child 1’ and ‘Child 2’ stitched into it to indicate where on the cloth each member of the family may wipe him or herself. Well, we don’t want our faeces getting mixed up! That would be gross.

Once a week, we wash the cloth in lukewarm water mixed with a little elderflower juice, and we’re ready to use it again. Hey presto, Mr I Have No Choice But To Use Pink Perfumed Toilet Paper In Plastic Wrapping That Was Probably Bought From Tesco - we have perfectly recyclable ‘bog roll’.

Eddie, some people say that if you want to see the true face of humanity you should visit the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China or New York City. What. Ever. Don’t waste your time visiting those manmade scars etched into the face of what was then a meek and defenceless Gaia (but She’s fighting back now, oh yes!). Instead, to see the true face of humanity, pop into a sewer. Don your wellies, perhaps put a wooden peg produced from a sustainable forest on your nose, and lower yourself into a ‘manhole’ (what a speciesist, sexist term) and behold the literal tonnes and tonnes of shit, piss, discarded condoms (which do not biodegrade), tampons, chucked-out contact lenses and tortured funfair fish that are flushed down toilets every single miserable day.

Nothing better sums up the wasteful folly of human life, the pointless and essentially destructive nature of our existence, than the mountains of faeces we produce every hour. There are 67million Britons. On the assumption that the average person relieves his bowels 1.5 times a day, that means as a nation we take 100,500,000 dumps in a 24-hour period!

Do you how many tonnes of waste that adds up to, Eddie? Using my carbon abacus - and allowing for the fact that in the parts of Britain where they are partial to vindaloos, lager and pork scratchings (don’t worry, I won’t mention any names, Bermondsey) people produce larger amounts of faeces than that produced by, say, an ethical family of four based in Kent that lives on little more than lentils and a love for nature - I estimate that Britain produces 22.872 tonnes of shit every day! Or 8,348.28 tonnes a year! Or 83,482.8 tonnes a decade! You get the picture… we produce enough shit to sink the Titanic a million times over. Only our waste is not used for anything so useful as removing manmade, eyesore, steel-packed ships packed with violinists and drunks from the delicate seas, but instead just goes to… waste.

We have been so stupefied by the capitalist/catastrophist system that we don’t even recognise there is goodness in our faeces, bacteria that could be liberated to fertilise the earth and to provide nourishment for parched maggots and beetles. No, what do we do instead? We turn ‘shit’ into a term of abuse. We say people ‘look like shit’, ‘smell like shit’ and ‘talk shit’ (as one especially abusive email correspondent said to me recently: ‘You don’t half talk out of your arse you massive ethical poof’), because we have been brain-zapped into thinking ‘shit’ is horrible when, in truth, given the right treatment and with serious government investment, our 100,500,000 daily shits could be utilised to grow organic food or to build mud-huts for immigrants and gypsies.

The worst part of it, Eddie, is that not only do we let our potentially wonderful waste go to waste - we also create more waste in the process of dealing with our waste! And easily the biggest evil is toilet paper. Mankind is SO arrogant, isn’t it? Where various ethically clued-up beasts, from cats to hyenas, are perfectly happy to clean themselves using their tongues - giving rise to an instant form of faeces recycling - and where other beasts, the marvellous dung beetle for example, gather together their waste and turn to into big balls that can be rolled through the desert for fun, we insist on building entire factories simply to produce ‘nice’-smelling paper to clean ourselves, as if our anuses were something special. To add insult to eco-injury, we advertise these evil wipes with pictures of puppies, and such canine-exploitation is simply intolerable.

Something must be done. I admire Sheryl Crow for suggesting that a ban on over-use of toilet paper might help the environment. Ms Crow, a singer of popular songs apparently, has suggested using ‘only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required’. I am also heartened to hear that other eco-saints are following the Greenhart example of using ‘family cloths’ to refresh their derrieres. As one website advises: ‘The purpose of the family cloth is to reduce the waste created by toilet paper. Old t-shirts are the most popular source for family cloth pieces.’ Unfortunately, neither of these quite sensible breakthroughs goes far enough.

No, we need to introduce a carrot-and-stick approach to weaning people off their addiction to Andrex. We should offer people incentives to use family cloths; how about a Family Cloth Tax Credit for those families that, following numerous surprise inspections of their toilet facilities by teams of toilet roll police, can prove that they are using old Pink Floyd t-shirts instead of pink paper to clean their bottoms? Then there is the stick… we should urgently ban adverts for toilet paper, just as we have banned adverts for other supremely evil products, such as cigarettes and formula milk for babies, and also attach an enormous social stigma to the purchase of toilet paper. Only then, Eddie, can we save Gaia from our shit-stained paper while thinking seriously about how to perk Her up with our properly recycled shit.

Ethan Greenhart’s book Can I Recycle my Granny? and 39 Other Eco-Dilemmas is published by Hodder & Stoughton in October (for more details, visit Amazon(UK)). Ethan is here to answer all your questions about ethical living in the twenty-first century. Email him here. Read his earlier columns here.

Sol Hanna

Aug 30th, 2008 - 8:50 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Joy said: "Your website says many great things about your support for a good education for all. There is one important issue though, about which your party is completely silent: OBE."

Thanks Joy, and yes, you are right about the Greens policy being silent on OBE. It does tend to focus more on 'bricks and mortor' issues along with community relations issues - nothing on curriculum. Now under regular circumstances this might be considered a good thing - after all, which teachers want more political interference in the curriculum? Isn't the curriculum already overloaded with agendas from politicians?

But these are not regular circumstances and the OBE curriculum is undoubtedly a big part of the problem. So I admit to being a bit mystified myself about this, because when I was introduced to Giz Watson for the first time and she found out I was a teacher, the first thing she mentioned as being a problem was OBE (whereas I raised teachers' salaries).

So I'll fill the silence by saying where I stand as a teacher and as a Greens candidate:

OBE has to go. It's been proven that it has sent the learning attainment of our students backwards. (And I should perhaps mention that my friend and former colleague has just completed her Ph.D. thesis on the affects of OBE in WA and she's told me that the results are demonstrably worse than the unit curriculum days.)

Further to that, I have to say I'm flabbergasted by how we always seem to adopt hand-me-down trends from the UK and USA. Why? When it comes to PISA testing they aren't doing any better than Australia. And yet Julia Gillard goes on a junket to New York and brings back the latest neo-liberal, punitive education fad from the USA which is about to be foisted on us.

I don't understand why we aren't looking at the schooling systems that are getting the best results internationally. If we're going to adopt a model (or parts of a model) from somewhere else, it might as well be from those that are proven to have the best academic standards. So we should be looking at the Finnish system, and even the Korean system (which is the most dynamic), and abandon the cultural kow-towing to the bigger english-speaking nations.

Now I realize I'm veering away from curriculum again, but, whilst I advocate an end to OBE and a clear and consistent syllabus (or unit curriculum), I'm not so naive as to believe that this is the be all and end all of education reform that's required to rescue our schooling system from disaster. Reform is needed in terms of better teacher training and remuneration. There needs to be better funding for school buildings and maintenance. And we need programs that build supportive links between schools and communities. And there are no magic wands to fix this complex situation (and I note that even the members of this forum that agree on some things, still disagree on so much!), so what is needed is a robust process with clear goals of getting information from stakeholders in education what is needed and how to achieve it. I think politicians can be naive when they promise the world and find that their often simplistic solutions don't measure up to the expectations they've created. So I'm not promising that the Greens will wave their magic wand and we'll all be in education utopia. But teachers like myself who are part of the process will be lobbying against OBE.

And that's all in addition to our policy commitments and our forthcoming announcements on teachers' pay.

cheers; sol

p.s: If you're interested in helping the Greens get elected my email is: sol.hanna75 (at) yahoo.com
p.p.s: Here is my summary of what makes the Finnish system the best in the world (written a couple of years ago):

So what is it about Finland’s school system that generates such success?

Well according to Reijo Laukkanen of the National Board of Education in Finland, it’s not any one thing, but a combination of things. Some of the key ingredients for Finnish school system success came as quite a surprise to me. Here are a few:

1. Finland developed a long-term education policy in the 1970s based on a political consensus from both sides of politics. The focus of the policy was to maximise both equity and high performance. Since that time the consensus has been maintained, thereby avoiding abrupt changes of policy.
2. Teachers are highly educated. All teachers now must have a Masters degree. The profession is highly regarded in Finnish society, and with two thirds of Finns going on to higher education, there is a culture of concern for and promotion of education.
3. There are virtually no private schools. Only around 60 in the whole country and they too are bound by national policy guidelines.
4. Finland has a high rate of taxation which allows it to provide a high investment in social services. This includes a very substantial investment in education. Schools are well resourced, and students can get free meals in the school canteen.
5. There is no formal grading in the early years of schooling as it is seen as detrimental to the individual student’s sense of self, and goes against the policy of equity and inclusion. Teachers do provide verbal feedback to students (and presumably parents that are interested) in lower years, but formal written grading doesn’t occur until towards the end of comprehensive schooling.

Out of interest I did a little bit more research of my own and was surprised at some of the information I found:

* Finland has one of the lowest (on average) class contact times of any nation. In fact school starts at 8am and finishes at 1pm!
* They have a 10 week summer holiday.
* Children start school at 7 years old.
* Finland doesn’t have the same model of primary and secondary school as the Anglo-American type systems. Instead they have a unified comprehensive school for the nine years from 7 years of age to 16 years of age. At the age of 16 students decide whether they will go on to an academic upper school (for between 2 and 4 years in preparation for university) or to a polytechnic to learn a trade.

Wary

Aug 30th, 2008 - 8:54 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

The GREENS are looking far too PINK for me these days.

Paul

Aug 30th, 2008 - 9:51 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Remember how the Democrats thought there were fairies at the bottom of the garden? Well they found ‘em – they’re called The Greens.

Secondary Teacher

Aug 30th, 2008 - 10:01 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol - You failed to answer completely, my question about how the Greens will preference candidates on their How to Vote Cards for the Greens - so I did my own research. I checked on the Greens web site and discovered that a vote for the Greens is really a vote for the Australian Labor Party. You state that only 75% of Green voters follow the How to Vote Card for the Greens, but in reality that 75% is virtually voting for the Australian Labor Party. Approxiamately 6 Green candidates, left the choice of preferential voting to the elector, by placing a "1" beside the Green's Candidate and leaving all the other numbers blank. There are a few that gave their second preference to an Independent, but their third and fourth preference went to the Australian Labor Party. More than 50 seats give their second preference for the Australian Labor Party. So Fred is definitely correct, a vote for the Greens in the Lower House is (with at least 75% of green voters) definitely a vote for the Australian Labor Party. Unfortunately, it will be either the Australian Labor Party or the Liberal Party who will win the most seats in the Lower House, and they will then have the right to govern.

It might be a different story for the Upper House. The Greens or the Independents could hold the balance of power.

Joy

Aug 30th, 2008 - 10:27 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Thanks for your answer, Sol

However, OBE is huge problem which could be fixed so easily. Why not commit yourselves to abolishing it?

Just because you personally oppose it does nothing to reassure those of us in other electoral districts, potentially voting for other candidates.

Can you lobby the party to clarify matters by officially opposing it, and promising to help abolish it, including the curriculum framework driving it?

I do not need any more excuses, or talking around the problem (although I agree with the points you made).

Thank you for your response so far, and for the contact information you gave.

However, before I get involved helping the Greens to get elected, I want to be sure they will definitely work to remove OBE from our schools.

Sol Hanna

Aug 30th, 2008 - 10:40 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi Secondary Teacher,

I want to take issue with your statement that "a vote for the Greens in the Lower House is (with at least 75% of green voters) definitely a vote for the Australian Labor Party".

This is a myth. I cite the following reasons:

1. ONLY A VOTE 1 FOR THE ALP IS A VOTE FOR THE ALP! And if you vote 1 for the ALP (or any other party for that matter) you are endorsing the platform they have taken to the election.

2. The Greens are a young party and our vote has been growing for 10 years. The notion that a Greens vote is a wasted vote because they won't get into government is a self-perpetuating myth. It is our aim to replace the conservative parties.

Over 100 years ago there were 2 conservative parties - the whigs and the tories - both committed to maintaining the privileges of the elites. They didn't meet the needs of working class Australians and so a progressive political force rose up to meet that challenge: the Australian Labor Party. A century on the ALP has given up its progressive reform agenda and chooses to side with the corporate donors that help them maintain power. No wonder people have become cynical about politics when there are two conservative parties with similar policies that spend more time with lobbyists and big business than they do meeting the needs of ordinary Australians.

And if you don't think the Greens can win government look to Germany where the Greens were part of the previous government coalition with the Social Democrats. In the most recent election the Greens increased their vote again whilst the Social Democrats lost votes. This caused the Social Democrats to go into coalition with the Christian Democrats, and now the Greens are effectively the opposition and alternative government. And it's just a matter of time until the same occurs here.

I'm aiming to get the 5000 votes I need to turn Riverton into a serious 3-way contest.

3. And even if I get 3000 votes, it's clear that Green preferences will be a decider. If I don't get the 5000 votes to be a real contender, then those who vote for me will get their votes counted twice.

It will be these voters who decide the fate of Riverton. And I'm making it quite clear to people who ask me about preferences that they must decide for themselves. Do not be surprised if the Liberals get across the line in Riverton on Greens preferences!

Such high Greens votes will certainly cause both sides of politics to pay attention and steal our policies (something which we welcome). Recently Alan Carpenter announced a policy for subsidized solar panels for private homes - an old Greens policy. Of course he has to make these concessions in order to stop wayward ALP voters from going Greens.

The same applies to education. If you think that the Greens have the best education policy and offer the best pay offer to teachers then vote 1 Greens and watch how fast the major parties change their position when the Greens vote goes up.

If you don't believe that one of the majors has the best policy don't vote for them. If you want to see change, treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, vote GREEN.

Paul

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:19 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

“And if you don't think the Greens can win government look to Germany where the Greens were part of the previous government coalition with the Social Democrats.”

Before we get too carried away, lets look at Germany’s voting system. Multimember electorates lead to multiparty outcomes. Single member electorates tend to lead to two party outcomes. If you’re going to stand for election it might help if you did a little homework on the various approaches to ‘democracy’ and their consequences.

SET

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:23 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Thanks to Sol Hanna (Greens candidate) for Riverton for being prepared to post on Plato and address questions so openly. There is a conservative Liberal candidate for Riverton who has not done so, despite trying to win the support of teachers.

Sol, good luck next Saturday and I hope that you give both the sitting member and the conservative Liberal candidate a run for their money.

For those who don't know, I believe that Sol has had to take three weeks of unpaid leave from his job as a school teacher to be able to stand as a candidate in this election. I hope that he does well.

Ghost

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:31 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

ST,

A vote for the Greens is not a vote for the ALP in the lower house, and it is a misrepresentation for you to assert that.

For the lower house ballot, you need to number 1 to 6 (roughly, depending how many House of Rep candidates you have in your seat). You can decide who you put where.

The Greens' how to vote cards are not a binding contract. They have worked out which parties have similar values and suggested preferences based on that for those people who want guidance. They don't follow you into the booth with a gun to your head and make sure you follow those suggestions. A vote for the Greens only becomes a vote for the ALP if the Greens fail to win the seat AND YOU--not the Greens--have preferenced to the ALP who goes on to win the seat.

In the federal election, the Greens refused to suggest preferences in my seat at all for the Lower House because of both ALP and Lib local candidate support for a local controversial issue.

Many people have mentioned on this site that there is little difference between Labor and the Libs anymore, that both are effectively conservative parties. I agree, although I still believe there is a difference.

However, for those of you who do not usually want to vote conservatively, please consider the Greens. The Greens pose a real threat to Labor because they are much more likely to take votes away from them, than take votes away from the Liberal party. This could really send a clear message to Labor that they need to return to its origins and support teachers, unions and public education (move more to the left, so to speak). Voting for the Liberal party instead may have the effect of encouraging Labor to move more to the right, and embrace privatization and individual workplace contracts for teachers.

We really need to think about the long term political situation in this state, and not just 'what's in it for me right now'.

Paul

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:35 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

SET,

What can I say, you’re sweetie and thanks for the beanie, but you are a political babe in the woods.

Joy

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:35 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Good post, Ghost.

Paul

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:38 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

"The Greens pose a real threat . . . ."

You've got that right.

SET

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:39 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Paul, at least I vote and have not become totally cynical.

SET

Aug 30th, 2008 - 11:53 AM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Ghost, thanks for explaining that so clearly. Again, it is the voter who decides who to vote for and where their particular preferences go, not any political party.
How to vote cards are suggestions, not mandatory.

I see that the latest Westpoll shows that the Greens are polling at about 10%. That makes them a significant third party and one that will receive the support of thinking people including many teachers.

Ghost

Aug 30th, 2008 - 12:08 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Gail,

A teacher has come onto this site to say that they have been so disillusioned with the state of education and other matters, that they have decided to do something proactive about it and run for political office.

I really think it would be more appropriate for you to treat Sol with respect, rather than contempt.

That doesn't mean that you need to adhere to the Greens' policies or should not critique them. However, what you are offering is hardly enlightened debate. It is immature, misrepresentative and disrespectful to a colleague who is making sacrifices to try and do something to make education better.

Can we have a Poll on who intends to Vote Green?

Aug 30th, 2008 - 1:44 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

ANY CHANCE OF A POLL ON WHO IS GOING TO VOTE GREEN?

Most people who vote Green are going to choose to Vote 1 on the long list for whatever that House in Parliament is called as they haven't a clue about many of the other candidates so don't want to vote for them. And who wants to number a list of about 25 people.

So Labour will probably get a few preferences but even Labour might be better than some of those other candidates who we know nothing about? - Oh dear,that's really sad!

Any more parties/candidates other than the Greens out there who might like to join in this blog and tell us what they have to offer.

- MAYBE

Paul

Aug 30th, 2008 - 2:28 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

SET,

I’m not “totally cynical”, I’m simply a realist. I don’t care if they’re red, green or in-between, any good used car salesman (and ultimately isn’t that what ALL politicians are) will always claim it was only driven to church on Sundays by a little old lady.

Gail Reed

Aug 30th, 2008 - 2:37 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

I have no idea of how to vote in this coming election. To be honest, I can't remember the last time I voted. The problem is that there never seems any real choices. The Liberal Party policy on education would be anathema, the Labor Party policy SNAFU. Where is the party who will close the chasm between what is and what ought to be?
The green slogan "treat'em mean.... It sounds like the mantra of adolescent girls. I can't for the life of me take these asses seriously.

Secondary Teacher

Aug 30th, 2008 - 2:47 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol - You have my respect foremost because you are a teacher and secondly because you put your hand up to support what you believe in. However, I still stand by my statements previously made and that is my belief.

A quote from the site "How to Vote Cards and their Importance" state - "Interestingly, in WA, the ALP won the state election not because of One Nation Preferences, but because they got most of the preferences from the Democrats and Greens. This was not well-reported by the media at the time".

I note on your How to Vote Card - you have given your second preference to an Independent and then your third to the ALP, then Liberals, Fam First and finally Christian Democrats.

Ghost - you end with "We really need to think about the long term political situation in this state, and not just "what's in it for me right now". This statement sums up why I rejoined the Union, because I was sick of the Unity team and the current ALP's treatment of teachers. I have voted NO to the current "offer in principle", but could have easily voted YES, because of my age factor and the immediate impact on my super, but I didn't because I wasn't moved by "what's in it for me right now".

All my years of scrutineering tell me that the majority of voters follow the How to Vote Cards" and Sol has stated 75% of Greens follow their How to Vote Cards. I fully understand that such a card is not a binding contract, obviously 25% of Greens don't follow such cards. However, when more than 50 of the Greens "How to Vote Cards" preference Labor as a second preference, does confirm to me that a vote for the Greens is 75% a vote for the Australian Labor Party.

SET - I respect the fact that Sol, the Teacher candidate in my electorate and many other individuals have had to give up their jobs once the election date was called.

SET

Aug 30th, 2008 - 3:05 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Secondary Teacher, a vote for the Greens is primarily a vote for the Greens.

Following your analysis it could be said that a vote for the Greens is 25% a vote against the Labor party.

Electors will vote for whichever party or candidates they wish and they will follow the how to vote cards or not follow them as they wish.

The figures presented demonstrate that those who vote for the Greens are quite capable of deciding which candidate to vote for and where to allocate their preferences.

Sol Hanna

Aug 30th, 2008 - 3:12 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi Secondary Teacher,

I do respect your point of view and can see that you've done your research. I still say a vote 1 Greens is a vote for the Greens!

Yet I extend a (virtual) pat on the back for rejoining the union and supporting Members First. I too was cynical about the union under the Unity ticket and didn't join. But after seeing my brother and other good teachers leaving the profession I decided I had to either get out of teaching or stand my ground. Like you I joined the union and I voted no on the current in principle agreement.

And I took one more step - I put my hand up to push for change at the top. As I see it, it's a win-win situation because my candidacy will increase the Greens vote, so even if I don't get elected, both majors will pay attention and it will force them to shift ground in the direction of more support for public schools and hospitals, and other issues that the Greens are championing like renewable energy (ALP has already shifted ground on this in the past week) and public transport. And because I'm actually out there doing something I no longer feel so powerless about the situation. To be honest I've really enjoyed meeting new people and talking to them about all sorts of issues. And I've been pleasantly surprised by the level of support - it sure feels like more than 10%.

So I say good on all teachers who are doing what they can to make a difference, whether in the classroom, in the union, or a political party. Much better to light a candle than sit in the dark grumbling.

Enough chat, I'm off to knock on some doors. Enjoy your weekend!

Fred

Aug 30th, 2008 - 3:17 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Gail,

depending on what your independent may promise to do: e.g. promise with detail to push for better working conditions and remuneration for teachers, what about:

1. Independent,
2. Greens,
3. Family First,
4. Other,
5. Whatever,
6. Whoever, and
7. then whomever even!?

We want a coalition of consciences to run Western Australia. I reckon talk to your independent and ask them: "What will you do for teachers?" If you're happy with the reply, then ask: "What can I do for you, then?"

Chris Curtis

Aug 30th, 2008 - 3:44 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Sol Hanna,

I accept that you are anti-OBE because you say so, but I would be amazed if the Greens as a whole are anti-OBE and would like to see a detailed policy from the party on the question. (I must add that OBE is a non-issue in Victoria, which has had it officially since the mid-1990s, and that my reading of the WA situation is that teachers are anti-WAOBE rather than anti-OBE itself.)

Finland does not make a substantial investment in education, as I have outlined on the Finland thread today. In 2004, Finland spent $US5,581 per primary student, compared with Australia’s $US5,776, and $US7,441 per secondary student, compared with Australia’s $US8,160 (OECD 2007 39313286.pdf). (Conversions are to US dollars by purchasing price parity.) To put it another way, Finland spent 19 percent of its per capita GDP on each primary student, as does Australia, and 25 percent of its per capita GDP on each secondary student, compared with Australia’s 26 per cent.

It pays its teachers less than Australia does. Its primary PTR is a little better than Australia’s, but worse than Victoria’s. Its secondary PTR is worse than Australia’s.

Mad Max

Aug 30th, 2008 - 4:52 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Go peddle your green political slime elsewhere Sol...Its Unionists like you that really peeannoy me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Christine Cunningham

Aug 30th, 2008 - 6:17 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Hi everyone
Very interesting thread I have been reading here. Thought I should pop in and say hi too because Sol, while doing a superb job, isn't the only teacher on the Green ticket this election.
Call us pink, red or whatever colour of the rainbow you like - we are a party that wants real change to occur and that includes a much better education system for Australia.
Ok, we haven't established a solid policy on OBE yet - but that's the beauty of our party. We listen to our members and to research and will come to a consensus on what's best for students and teachers. With members like Sol and I ( and Giz, and Rob and lots of other teachers) I know that we will be able to put forward our personal experience of how detrimental OBE is in terms of assessment and reporting.
Labor isn't listening but if you choose to teach them a lesson by voting Liberal I am afraid you won't be better off than you are right now. Vote Green and tell both parties it is time to start listening to what educators are screaming loud and clear.

Clifford Chapman

Aug 30th, 2008 - 7:05 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

Chris, your figures are interesting but I'm trying to get a handle on them.

In order for them to make real sense, or the point being raised, as in actual comparability, while they're all in American dollars, what's the yardstick to really measure them by? I mean, what percentages and so forth of each of the three countries can you apply so that real accuracy can be obtained?

For example, in South Africa, each secondary student might only have, say, 1000.00 US dollars allocated to their education but it might be a bigger percentage in real terms as measured by that country's financial standing, earnings, economy and all the rest of it.

SET

Aug 30th, 2008 - 8:30 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!

"Labor isn't listening but if you choose to teach them a lesson by voting Liberal I am afraid you won't be better off than you are right now. Vote Green and tell both parties it is time to start listening to what educators are screaming loud and clear."

Christine, welcome to Plato and best wishes for the election.

Public school teachers have been let down by Labor and they have never received real support from the Liberals.

Ghost

Aug 30th, 2008 - 8:42 PM

Re: treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen, VOTE GREEN!