Larry Forinash

IP: 162.39.1.186

Dec 10, 05 - 10:56 PM

stopping

Dean, I contacted you this past fall and asked about any older reiners that you may for sale that could teach me the ropes. I have a 5yr old gelding that has a lot of talent. People tell me they can't believe that this is my first horse that I have ever trained, let alone the fact that I am taking on training a reiner. I have got him loping really nice circles, he pics ups his leads nicely, he's VERY soft in the face, I'm starting to put some cadence and a little speed into his turn-arounds "spins", and I've gotten all this done on my own, however I just cannot get him to "lock-up" or "sit down" on his hocks to stop, let alone slide. He will however stop on the word "whoa" pretty quickly, but he just won't sit down on his hocks. Whenever I am backing him, I can't get him to roll over his hocks and get under himself to back either. I have tried rolling my spurs under his rib cage to get him to round out his back, and he does round out his back, but he still will not roll over his hocks. I did have this local reining trainer ride him this past fall and in a matter of minutes he had him locking up his hind legs and sliding about a foot or so and that is not being shod at all. He used the old "yank their head off" method that I would prefer not to use as this did set him way back, as you would have probably guessed. Any time that I would pick up on the reins, he would anticipate the yank and flip his head upside down and would start flipping out (running off side-ways). I had to go back and fix that problem which took about a month or so to fix completely. I was thinking that for one I need to get him shod, and the next thing that I was thinking was to maybe get a ported bit, not to yank but more so as to put steady pressure. Most of all as you can see, I need professional help. Any information or training tips that you can give me would be greatly appreciated

Dean Brown

IP: 72.2.8.9

Dec 11th, 2005 - 10:27 AM

Re: stopping

The first thing you need to be able to do is get your horse to back up. Here is a link to one of these topics in the forum. http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/3266594913/show/430654
You need to try and teach the horse how to be disciplined. Without a back up that can be disciplined it is very difficult to teach your horse to stop. Push your horse up in the bridle at a walk or trot and then release your legs and at that moment is the best time to get aggressive with your legs to see if you can get your horse to jump away from your hands. Once the horse has started backing up and if the horse is getting stuck it is more complicated and also more dangerous to force the horse backwards when he is stuck. The bottom line is it sounds like your horse is not responding to your legs in the back up.
As far as not scaring the face goes that is why I have the horse pushed up into the bridle thus I am already pulling on the brake when I say whoa! And or release my legs. Thus the horse is not going to anticipate the pull with the word.
As far as more bit goes I do not think this is your problem at this point in time. It may help some things but it will not help your back up. A 150 pound person can not pull back a 1000 pound horse. The horse needs to know that if you go to your legs in the back up that he needs to get back and get back now. So you will have to get more aggressive with your legs either using them infront of the cinch or on the horses belly. As soon as the horse reacts positive and a little more intent stop backing and reward your horse. Then maybe walk forward and try again. Usually at this point for the first day I may not drill the back from a stands still. Meaning will not back stop back stop. I will back and get my response then stop and reward my horse and walk forward and go again. If your horse is getting stuck I will push my horse forward back into the bridle probably at a trot find the stiff spot in the horses face and at the exact moment I stop is when I will get aggressive with my legs to try and get the response I want. Remember Motion is Motion. Forward motion in allot of ways is the same as reverse motion. The horse has to use himself in order to back properly.
Good luck

Dean Brown

Larry Forinash

IP: 162.39.0.197

Dec 12th, 2005 - 12:43 AM

Re: stopping

Dean, thanks to your quick reply,I was able to take your tip and put it to work today (sun, dec 11) in my training session. I think that you nailed it right on the head! I did exactly as you said and found his "stiff" spot in the bridle and was able to get aggressive with my legs (this took a couple of tries as he is a little on the lazy side and I did have to get VERY aggressive with my legs) and then "VIOLA" head dropped, (this has never been a problem) back rounds and then like magic, there goes the hocks and at one point a friend at the barn tells me that he is so up under himself that he is almost clipping himself with his front feet hitting his hind feet! His stiff spot was at the moment of the stop. I would push him up into the bridle and then take my legs off and say "whoa" and he would stop, but he put no effort into the backing. At this point I was not worried about the stopping because I knew his backing needed work. I would then start to use my legs to get him to get back NOW and he would jump out of the bridle. After sticking with this method and getting very aggressive with my legs, he realized very quickly that all I wanted was a little effort in the backing and then the pressure would stop. Once he started to put effort into his backing, I would only back him a few steps with his hocks rolled over and then would let him rest for a few minutes. Before you knew it, he was almost running backwards about 30ft or so. Thanks for the tip. I was wondering how important shoes are at this point in training. Should I have him shod now or wait until spring? If now, then how should I have him shod! Oh yeah! he has never been shod.

Dean Brown

IP: 72.2.8.9

Dec 12th, 2005 - 11:01 AM

Re: stopping

I would shoe him now. You can go with a 3/4 to a 1" Slider. Without knowing the horse myself you would be better off to start with a 3/4" sliding plate and then if you need more shoe go from there. If you put the 1" in him he may scare himself when he first tries to stop and this can set you back in you accomplishments.
Now that you have him backing remember for every positive response there can be a negative response. You used your legs to get him back and you might run into a problem where you are asking him to do something and he might start backing up thinking that is what you want. If this happens the first few time she does it just gently pull him around a bit to get out of the back up but if it persits at all you might need to spank him on the but. Cause if you kick him to try to go forward he might think you want MORE BACK UP so just keep that in mind. If you deal with it right away it will not become a problem.
Dean Brown

Author	Comment
Larry Forinash IP: 162.39.1.186 Dec 10, 05 - 10:56 PM	stopping Dean, I contacted you this past fall and asked about any older reiners that you may for sale that could teach me the ropes. I have a 5yr old gelding that has a lot of talent. People tell me they can't believe that this is my first horse that I have ever trained, let alone the fact that I am taking on training a reiner. I have got him loping really nice circles, he pics ups his leads nicely, he's VERY soft in the face, I'm starting to put some cadence and a little speed into his turn-arounds "spins", and I've gotten all this done on my own, however I just cannot get him to "lock-up" or "sit down" on his hocks to stop, let alone slide. He will however stop on the word "whoa" pretty quickly, but he just won't sit down on his hocks. Whenever I am backing him, I can't get him to roll over his hocks and get under himself to back either. I have tried rolling my spurs under his rib cage to get him to round out his back, and he does round out his back, but he still will not roll over his hocks. I did have this local reining trainer ride him this past fall and in a matter of minutes he had him locking up his hind legs and sliding about a foot or so and that is not being shod at all. He used the old "yank their head off" method that I would prefer not to use as this did set him way back, as you would have probably guessed. Any time that I would pick up on the reins, he would anticipate the yank and flip his head upside down and would start flipping out (running off side-ways). I had to go back and fix that problem which took about a month or so to fix completely. I was thinking that for one I need to get him shod, and the next thing that I was thinking was to maybe get a ported bit, not to yank but more so as to put steady pressure. Most of all as you can see, I need professional help. Any information or training tips that you can give me would be greatly appreciated Email: jdemaio@alltel.net
Dean Brown IP: 72.2.8.9 Dec 11th, 2005 - 10:27 AM	Re: stopping The first thing you need to be able to do is get your horse to back up. Here is a link to one of these topics in the forum. http://pub39.bravenet.com/forum/3266594913/show/430654 You need to try and teach the horse how to be disciplined. Without a back up that can be disciplined it is very difficult to teach your horse to stop. Push your horse up in the bridle at a walk or trot and then release your legs and at that moment is the best time to get aggressive with your legs to see if you can get your horse to jump away from your hands. Once the horse has started backing up and if the horse is getting stuck it is more complicated and also more dangerous to force the horse backwards when he is stuck. The bottom line is it sounds like your horse is not responding to your legs in the back up. As far as not scaring the face goes that is why I have the horse pushed up into the bridle thus I am already pulling on the brake when I say whoa! And or release my legs. Thus the horse is not going to anticipate the pull with the word. As far as more bit goes I do not think this is your problem at this point in time. It may help some things but it will not help your back up. A 150 pound person can not pull back a 1000 pound horse. The horse needs to know that if you go to your legs in the back up that he needs to get back and get back now. So you will have to get more aggressive with your legs either using them infront of the cinch or on the horses belly. As soon as the horse reacts positive and a little more intent stop backing and reward your horse. Then maybe walk forward and try again. Usually at this point for the first day I may not drill the back from a stands still. Meaning will not back stop back stop. I will back and get my response then stop and reward my horse and walk forward and go again. If your horse is getting stuck I will push my horse forward back into the bridle probably at a trot find the stiff spot in the horses face and at the exact moment I stop is when I will get aggressive with my legs to try and get the response I want. Remember Motion is Motion. Forward motion in allot of ways is the same as reverse motion. The horse has to use himself in order to back properly. Good luck Dean Brown
Larry Forinash IP: 162.39.0.197 Dec 12th, 2005 - 12:43 AM	Re: stopping Dean, thanks to your quick reply,I was able to take your tip and put it to work today (sun, dec 11) in my training session. I think that you nailed it right on the head! I did exactly as you said and found his "stiff" spot in the bridle and was able to get aggressive with my legs (this took a couple of tries as he is a little on the lazy side and I did have to get VERY aggressive with my legs) and then "VIOLA" head dropped, (this has never been a problem) back rounds and then like magic, there goes the hocks and at one point a friend at the barn tells me that he is so up under himself that he is almost clipping himself with his front feet hitting his hind feet! His stiff spot was at the moment of the stop. I would push him up into the bridle and then take my legs off and say "whoa" and he would stop, but he put no effort into the backing. At this point I was not worried about the stopping because I knew his backing needed work. I would then start to use my legs to get him to get back NOW and he would jump out of the bridle. After sticking with this method and getting very aggressive with my legs, he realized very quickly that all I wanted was a little effort in the backing and then the pressure would stop. Once he started to put effort into his backing, I would only back him a few steps with his hocks rolled over and then would let him rest for a few minutes. Before you knew it, he was almost running backwards about 30ft or so. Thanks for the tip. I was wondering how important shoes are at this point in training. Should I have him shod now or wait until spring? If now, then how should I have him shod! Oh yeah! he has never been shod. Email: jdemaio@alltel.net
Dean Brown IP: 72.2.8.9 Dec 12th, 2005 - 11:01 AM	Re: stopping I would shoe him now. You can go with a 3/4 to a 1" Slider. Without knowing the horse myself you would be better off to start with a 3/4" sliding plate and then if you need more shoe go from there. If you put the 1" in him he may scare himself when he first tries to stop and this can set you back in you accomplishments. Now that you have him backing remember for every positive response there can be a negative response. You used your legs to get him back and you might run into a problem where you are asking him to do something and he might start backing up thinking that is what you want. If this happens the first few time she does it just gently pull him around a bit to get out of the back up but if it persits at all you might need to spank him on the but. Cause if you kick him to try to go forward he might think you want MORE BACK UP so just keep that in mind. If you deal with it right away it will not become a problem. Dean Brown